<html><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><META name="Author" content="Novell GroupWise WebAccess"></head><body style='font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; '><div>Hi all</div><br><div>The issue of boundaries matching the cadaster layer also applies to Protected Areas. We have PA boundaries that bisect parent farms that we know are not part of the Protected Area. It would be great if all our administrative boundaries matched the cadaster.</div><br><div>Regards</div><br><div>Ray<br><br><br/><div style='clear: both;'><div align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="1"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma"><em><font size="1">Ray Schaller<o:p></o:p></font></em></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma"><em><font size="1">Conservation Planner<o:p></o:p></font></em></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma"><o:p><em><font size="1"> </font></em></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma"><em><font size="1">NW READ</font></em></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma"><em><font size="1"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>Department Rural, Environment and Agricultural Development</font></em></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma"></span><em><font size="1"><st1:state w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma">North West</span></st1:place></st1:state><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma"> Provincial Government <o:p></o:p></span></font></em></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma"><o:p><em><font size="1"> </font></em></o:p></span><em><font size="1"><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:placetype w:st="on"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma">Republic</span></st1:placetype><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma"> of <st1:placename w:st="on">South Africa</st1:placename></span></st1:place><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></span></font></em></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma"><o:p><em><font size="1"> </font></em></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma"><em><font size="1">Tel:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>+27-18-389-5324<o:p></o:p></font></em></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma"><em><font size="1">Cell:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>+27-82-375-9934<o:p></o:p></font></em></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Book Antiqua'; mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma"><em><font size="1">Email:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> <a href="mailto:rschaller@nwpg.gov.za">r</a></span><a href="mailto:rschaller@nwpg.gov.za">schaller@nwpg.gov.za</a></font></em><o:p></o:p></span></p></font><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font> </p></font></div></div><br/>>>> "Antony Cooper" <ACooper@csir.co.za> 07/20/16 7:49 PM >>><br>Hi All<br><br>This is obviously a very important issue and I will hopefully remember<br>to raise it in the CSI. The CSI did identify the MDB as the custodian<br>for ward, municipal, provincial and national boundaries - but the MDB<br>did not nominate a delegate to the CSI.<br><br>I think that this problem actually goes back decades, long before<br>digital data! So, the legislation was drafted by people who expected to<br>draw lines (with pens effectively many metres thick) on paper maps for<br>doing demarcations. It was generally never really a problem, because<br>the population centres were so much smaller then and far apart.<br><br>The current crop of legislators are unlikely to be skilled at using<br>digital geospatial data, so they probably still have that ancient<br>perspective on how to mark off areas. With all the planners that are on<br>the Board of the MDB, one would hope that they would be sufficiently<br>spatially literate to use the cadastre as the basis for demarcation. <br>However, demarcation is primarily a party-political process fraught with<br>compromise and suspicion and mistrust and hidden agendas and so on.<br><br>What is needed is to change the legislative process so that demarcating<br>of any form is not a matter of drawing lines, but is one of aggregating<br>together areas (hopefully, sensible ones such as cadastral units) and<br>where necessary, creating new areas (eg: in areas where the cadastre is<br>too coarse).<br><br><br>In a similar vein, it is my understanding that the new border along the<br>middle of the Orange River between South Africa and Namibia was surveyed<br>a long time ago - but the politicians have not yet made the change. So,<br>the border is still on the northern bank and the whole river there<br>belongs to South Africa ....<br><br><br>Regards<br>Antony Cooper<br><br><br>-- <br>Spatial Planning and Systems<br>CSIR Built Environment<br>PO Box 395<br>PRETORIA<br>0001<br>South Africa<br>Telephone: +27 12 841 4121<br>Cellular: +27 82 497 3812<br>Email: acooper@csir.co.za <br><br><br><br>>>> On 20 July 2016 at 16:29, in message<br><028601d1e293$1872ed70$4958c850$@land-surveyors.com>, "Peter Newmarch"<br><newmarch@land-surveyors.com> wrote:<br>> All,<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> I agree that the scale of published maps is not very accurate,<br>that*s why <br>> they have it downloadable in shapefiles. Admittedly not captured with<br>great <br>> precision with respect to the cadaster and other features.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> The Act says that when determining the boundaries, the board must<br>take into <br>> account a whole long list of factors including the *existing and<br>proposed <br>> functional boundaries*.* (presumably things like cadastral<br>boundaries amongst <br>> others) * including the public consultation process.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> They do not publish their weightings to each criteria that they must<br>assess <br>> before arriving at the final shapefile. It would be very wrong to<br>simply <br>> adjust it to the cadastral line when one does not know the weighting<br>they <br>> applied to each of the factors they had to consider including public<br>input. <br>> Perhaps in consultation with a municipality, the municipality could<br>have told <br>> them they wanted to put a future road along that boundary and so the<br><br>> demarcation board left that *buffer*. Perhaps in other cases the<br>demarcation <br>> board has digitized a stream/river directly off imagery and that<br>river has <br>> moved with respect to the cadastral boundary. <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Even in cases where it*s clear as daylight that the demarcation<br>data and <br>> cadastral data should align, if could well be that in rural areas,<br>they may <br>> have followed ground information such as the induna areas of the<br>tribal <br>> authority * which by the way, in most cases does not follow<br>cadastral <br>> boundaries anyway. I have picked up on a few occasions, on housing<br>jobs, this <br>> difference and its quite rational as it*s based on the peoples<br>loyalty to <br>> different indunas and chiefs.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> The word *cadastral* does not even appear in the act * surely<br>if they <br>> intended it to follow such, they would simply just say so. Rather<br>they use <br>> *functional boundaries* * which actually makes sense as it<br>allows <br>> consideration of a whole host of other factors in their<br>determination.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> It would be wrong to adjust any demarcation data, without evaluating<br>the <br>> same criteria and information that was on hand to determine the<br>limits in the <br>> first place * to do so would be in violation of the act as the act<br>lays down <br>> all the considerations to take into account.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Regards<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Peter<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> From: David Barkhuisen [mailto:dave@kirchhoffsurveyors.co.za] <br>> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 2:55 PM<br>> To: newmarch@land-surveyors.com; Africa local chapter discussions <br>> <africa@lists.osgeo.org><br>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo Africa] Municipal boundary demarcation<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Hi <br>> <br>> The gazette maps do not describe the area in an accurate manner such<br>as the <br>> way a survey diagram or mining/prospecting diagram does with a<br>diagram and <br>> accurate coordinate list. The gazette maps certainly don't involve<br>much <br>> accuracy seeing as the Ethekwini gazette map in the link below is not<br>drawn <br>> to scale.<br>> <br>><br>http://www.demarcation.org.za/index.php/downloads/boundary-data/kwazulu-nata<br><br>> l-4/eth-1/detailed-ward-maps-156/2994-eth-ward-1/file<br>> <br>> Regards<br>> <br>> David<br>> <br>> On 20/07/2016 13:47, Peter Newmarch wrote:<br>> <br>> Chris,<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> The demarcation data is fixed. Its Gazetted as a map and not by<br>cadastral <br>> boundaries or features. The land might for rating purposes fall in<br>JHB, but <br>> for approvel purposes (SPLUMA) wherever the development falls<br>spatially in <br>> terms of the municipal demarcation data * then that is the<br>municipality.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> I recently saw a case where a parent property was in Municpality A,<br>but the <br>> new sub was Municpality B * because of the mismatch between the<br>data.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Municipal data is determined by people numbers, while the intention<br>might be <br>> to follow certain cadastral lines, its unfortunately not Gazetted<br>that way <br>> and so leaves no room for any interpretation whatsoever * its fixed<br>in <br>> absolute terms.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> I know of two cases where very large farms are split down the middle<br>because <br>> of municipal demarcation lines * but remains one property. I have<br>never <br>> checked if the farms themselves appear in both municipal rates rolls,<br>but <br>> certainly they have ward councillors from different municipalities on<br>the <br>> same land parcel.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> If you want to rectify the situation, you have to apply to amend the<br><br>> demarcation limits of the city and follow that process.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Regards<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Peter<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> From: Africa [mailto:africa-bounces@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of<br>Chris <br>> Kirchhoff<br>> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 9:12 AM<br>> To: 'Africa local chapter discussions' <br><mailto:africa@lists.osgeo.org> <br>> <africa@lists.osgeo.org><br>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo Africa] Municipal boundary demarcation<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Thanks Aslam,<br>> <br>> I have downloaded the shape files from the Demarcation board website<br>and the <br>> Government Gazette <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> The problem that arises is that the Demarcation board Shape file<br>Municipal <br>> boundary line , the property boundary line based on the Surveyor<br>General <br>> digital boundary data and the actual WGS 84 coordinates as defined on<br>the <br>> approved Surveyor General diagram that define the property boundary<br>are not <br>> consistent.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> The Demarcation board Shape file municipal boundary line shows the<br>Tshwane <br>> municipal boundary running inside a farm boundary by some 30m. <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> This farm is supposed to be inside Johannesburg municipality.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> The Johannesburg municipality wishes to build a 30m wide road along<br>the farm <br>> boundary but now sees that part of the road would fall inside Tshwane<br><br>> municipality according to the Demarcation board Shape file municipal<br><br>> boundary line.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> I would assume the obvious response is that the Municipal boundary<br>should <br>> be contiguous with property boundaries, however I can find no<br>legislation <br>> that clearly sates this ?<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Would you have some thoughts on how to resolve this ?<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> **************...<br>> <br>> Chris Kirchhoff<br>> Professional Land Surveyor<br>> Tel : 082-773 4868<br>> <mailto:chris@kirchhoffsurveyors.co.za><br>chris@kirchhoffsurveyors.co.za <br>> <http://www.kirchhoffsurveyors.co.za/> www.kirchhoffsurveyors.co.za<br><br>> <br>> We believe good spatial information leads to superior planning,<br>diminished <br>> project risks, improved feasibility assessments and efficient<br>resource <br>> utilisation.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> From: Africa [mailto:africa-bounces@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of<br>Aslam <br>> Parker<br>> Sent: 20 July 2016 08:38 AM<br>> To: Africa local chapter discussions <africa@lists.osgeo.org <br>> <mailto:africa@lists.osgeo.org> ><br>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo Africa] Municipal boundary demarcation<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Dear Colleagues<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> The Municipal Demarcation Board <http://www.demarcation.org.za/> <br>> http://www.demarcation.org.za/ is the only authoritative source of <br>> Demarcation data in South Africa<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> The Board*s mandate derives from:<br>> <br>> The Constitution Of The Republic Of South Africa, 1996 (Act No 108 Of<br>1996). <br>> <br>> <br>> The Board is mandated in terms of section 155(3)(b) to determine<br>municipal <br>> Boundaries independently. <br>> <br>> Local Government: Municipal Demarcation Act, 1998 (Act No 27 Of<br>1998)<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> The latest boundary data (shapefiles) can be downloaded from <br>> http://www.demarcation.org.za/index.php/downloads/boundary-data <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> We are also encouraged to carefully scrutinise the Section 21 of the<br>Local <br>> Government: Municipal Demarcation Act 27 of 1998 the Municipal<br>Demarcation <br>> Board which graphically shows re-determined the municipal boundaries.<br> In <br>> most cases the boundary changes seems small and insignificant, but<br>can have <br>> significant socio-political, as well as planning implications. <br>> http://www.demarcation.org.za/site/?page_id=14588 <br>> <br>> A Good example :<br>> <br>> * In terms of Section 21 of the Local Government: Municipal<br>Demarcation Act <br>> 27 of 1998 the Municipal Demarcation Board has re-determined the<br>municipal <br>> boundaries of Mnquma Local Municipality (EC122) and Mbhashe Local M <br>> unicipality (EC121) , by excluding the Administrative areas of<br>Mhlahlana, <br>> Nkonkwana,KwaMente, and KwaNkanga from the municipal area of Mnquma<br>Local <br>> Municipality (EC122), and by including them into the municipal area<br>of <br>> Mbhashe Local M unicipality (EC121).* The example map can be<br>accessed at <br>><br>http://www.demarcation.org.za/index.php/municipal-boundaries/section-21-maps-<br><br>> and-notices/ec-sec21-dems/1104-dem4037-bpfc-sec21/file <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Aslam Parker | Director: Geo-spatial Information and Professional<br>Support <br>> |Chief Directorate: National Geo-spatial Information | Department of<br>Rural <br>> Development and Land Reform | <http://www.ngi.gov.za/><br>www.ngi.gov.za| Cape <br>> Town|<br>> <br>> Tel +27 21 658 4302| Fax +27 21 689 1351| Mobile 082 331 8501| <br>> aslam.parker@drdlr.gov.za <mailto:aslam.parker@drdlr.gov.za> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> From: Africa [mailto:africa-bounces@lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of<br>Lydia du <br>> Toit<br>> Sent: 20 July 2016 07:44 AM<br>> To: Africa local chapter discussions<br>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo Africa] Municipal boundary demarcation<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Hi Chris, <br>> <br>> Contact the Demarcation Board, or download from their website.<br>> <br>> They have the 2011 and 2016 boundaries available.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Regards<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Lydia Du Toit (Pr GISc)<br>> Mobile: 0832713158<br>> Email: Lydiadt@mweb.co.za <mailto:Lydiadt@mweb.co.za> or<br>> <br>> From: Chris Kirchhoff <mailto:chris@kirchhoffsurveyors.co.za> <br>> <br>> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 5:41 AM<br>> <br>> To: 'Africa local chapter discussions'<br><mailto:africa@lists.osgeo.org> <br>> <br>> Subject: [OSGeo Africa] Municipal boundary demarcation<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> Hi<br>> <br>> Is there a formal/ legal source of municipal boundary positions<br>especially <br>> for boundary between Johannesburg and Tshwane municipalities <br>> <br>> Thanks<br>> <br>> Chris<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> **************...<br>> <br>> Chris Kirchhoff<br>> Professional Land Surveyor<br>> Tel : 082-773 4868<br>> <mailto:chris@kirchhoffsurveyors.co.za><br>chris@kirchhoffsurveyors.co.za <br>> <http://www.kirchhoffsurveyors.co.za/> www.kirchhoffsurveyors.co.za<br><br>> <br>> We believe good spatial information leads to superior planning,<br>diminished <br>> project risks, improved feasibility assessments and efficient<br>resource <br>> utilisation.<br><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Africa mailing list<br>> Africa@lists.osgeo.org <mailto:Africa@lists.osgeo.org> <br>> You can UNSUBSCRIBE at http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/africa<br><br>> <br>_______________________________________________<br>Africa mailing list<br>Africa@lists.osgeo.org<br>You can UNSUBSCRIBE at http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/africa<br></div></body>
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