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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>> </span> In many cases the code is developed primarily on github with Travis running tests (and often other tools in the build) and then mirrored onto a private <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:.5in'><span style='color:#1F497D'>> </span>gitlab and Jenkins setup where further quality assurance, release and deploy steps are run. <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>That's kind of the thing I wanted to push for thus my reason for joining SAC. We have a couple of things we have in pipe – which we will do once we get new hardware and also using infrastructure Funtoo org was offered us. I'd use PostGIS as a proof of concept though it needs some cleanup.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:.5in'><span style='color:#1F497D'>> </span>I would be in favor of this kind of integrated setup for OSGeo with both sides of the equation represented, <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:.5in'><span style='color:#1F497D'>> </span>but haven’t seen evidence that we are capable of organizing that, setting cross project standards and coming up with a more coherent plan that represents <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:.5in'><span style='color:#1F497D'>> </span>the organization clearly and professionally. <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>True admittedly there hasn't been evidence which has concerned me too, thus I wanted to be part of the solution and make evidence.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>There is a certain self-defeating helplessness in projects that bothers me. It's always a SAC does nothing for me. OSGeo does nothing for me.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>In a sense it's self-defeating because if you expect nothing you will get nothing and you will frustrate those of us trying with (well they certainly don't care for my input).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>On PostGIS side there is a lot of sentiment like that too – but I think hey I depend on OSGeo for a place to put my downloads, for my mailing lists, and at least currently <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Sure old ways like Travis are useful and good for the present, but I worry about too much reliance of a single company especially one that has to answer to investors who could care less about open source. The bigness of them to me is an artificial thing, and I'd hate that to stifle smaller players with great ideas or Uni kids wanting to explore administration and testing and thinking (why bother cause GitHub/Amazon etc. has already solved the world's problems)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>To Even's point:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> That's the kind of workaround/cheating which causes others to pay for resources you<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> use. And thus increase their bills... and/or may decrease the quality of the free tier.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>There are several schools of thought to this. Mine are the following, which is why I feel little guilt<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>a)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>In my mind, my use is advertising they can add to their statistics. Private companies that use my work should be footing the bill and we/they should do more to extract money from these private companies.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>b)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>These companies (not speaking necessarily of Travis) are venture funded, so their progression is not organic and could be stifling growth of smaller companies who can provide similar services who are growing organically. I'd rather see many more Travis's, AppVeyors, and Github than one big one for the same reason I appreciate having thousands of cloud hosters to choose from.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> I also hear your argument that there are solutions like Drone or GitLab that use<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> open source software, which is great. But at some point you need to make that<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>> software run on servers, that you must buy or rent, and that you must monitor, maintain, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>The value I see in using an open solution is not just that I can run it on my own servers and tweak it for my own needs, also it's that it is more likely to lead to me having more choices of providers I can rely on that are easy to move to. Granted this starts getting messy with the plethora of OSL licenses.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Take my favorite example of PostgreSQL – there are a ton of PostgreSQL service providers (big and small players) now and all the big ones Amazon, Microsoft Azure, Google now offer it as a service. Most are offering PostGIS at this point too cause they can since it too is open source. This would not be possible if PostgreSQL is closed.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>So yah each has their own tweaks, but I know hey if Amazon pisses me off, Microsoft has a close enough offering I can move to.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Regina<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:.5in'>Again as a project lead I’m not quite sure what it is we got for going through incubation other than more eyeballs perhaps. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 14:50 Regina Obe <<a href="mailto:lr@pcorp.us">lr@pcorp.us</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Tim,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Well put and sorry for letting my sanctimony get in the way of my helpfulness.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Overall I think it was a good discussion and brought out some useful approaches that all projects can benefit from.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>It's good to see so much interest on gitlab (as aired here and also on postgis irc).</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Regina</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Tim Sutton [mailto:</span><a href="mailto:tim@kartoza.com" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>tim@kartoza.com</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 23, 2018 5:13 PM<br><b>To:</b> Vicky Vergara <</span><a href="mailto:vicky@georepublic.de" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>vicky@georepublic.de</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>><br><b>Cc:</b> Regina Obe <</span><a href="mailto:lr@pcorp.us" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>lr@pcorp.us</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>>; osgeo-board List <</span><a href="mailto:board@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>board@lists.osgeo.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>>; Sandro Santilli <</span><a href="mailto:strk@kbt.io" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>strk@kbt.io</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Board] Travis-CI & OSGeo</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>Hi Regina and friends<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>Regarding using a discrete GitHub org, I agree this is good advice for Even. <a href="http://GIS.ORG" target="_blank">GIS.ORG</a> has its own org in GitHub and we also benefit from exclusive use of the 5 travis jobs, autonomy over how we manage our org, and other good things.. Even: I know that Matthias Kuhn also squeezed a lot of mileage out of travis for QGIS, so you might want to chat to him and ask for any tips and tricks he might have to share. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>QGIS, by the way, is going to move to GitLab for a complex of reasons. Such moves are highly disruptive and should not be recommended lightly to a project. Especially in Even’s case who, if you follow hist activities, has only just moved GDAL over to GitHub and who is, I am sure, 100% not interested in doing the whole thing over again before another 10 years have passed :-P<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>Reflecting on the more ‘flaming arrow' parts of the discussion, I do think it is good to take on board the general sentiment of the thread: if people write for help we should try to focus on solving their problems, not derail the conversation by airing views on their ‘bad’ technology choices. Even for one is, I am sure, well aware of what open source is, the benefits to humanity it offers etc. …… and also the utility he can get from a well run, stable and richly functional service like GitHub that can help him share his great work to the world.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>Regards<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>Tim<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><o:p> </o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>On 23 Apr 2018, at 20:52, Vicky Vergara <<a href="mailto:vicky@georepublic.de" target="_blank">vicky@georepublic.de</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Hi all,<br><br>I agree with Regina,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>In my own experience with pgRouting as Community project:<br><br>We have pgRouting as a "GitHub organization" and have.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><br>it has 3 sub-projects repositories:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>pgrouting -- very active using travis (notice the lowercase r, so pgRouting its not only the thing used in postgreSQL)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>pgRoutinglayers -- not using travis</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>osm2pgrouting -- somehow active using travis</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>in addition to that we also have:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Website</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Workshop -- somehow active using travis</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>And a series of forks that we use to make contirbutions to other projects for example:</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><h3 style='margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>osgeo </span><o:p></o:p></h3><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span class=m9094320365087113557gmail-text-gray><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>Forked from OSGeo/osgeo </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'><br><br>Also we have stalled ideas in other repositories under pgRouting</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>In total we have 15 repositories</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>And we can manage with the 5 concurrent jobs </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>A testing build of pgRouting has 6 jobs that 5 take around 8 to 9 minutes and 1 takes less than 3 minutes.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>We are making use of being open and using the "free" advantages of github.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>And we are not consuming OSGeo valuable resources that can be used in other key things.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>VIcky</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 12:36 PM, Regina Obe <<a href="mailto:lr@pcorp.us" target="_blank">lr@pcorp.us</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Apology for the flaming arrows. Howard and I love to throw arrows at each other.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Oh where do I start here?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>From an idealist standpoint. Yes I am crazy enough to think I can make a difference and provide something complementary to travis and appveyor.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>I do not think they satisfy all needs without going thru some crazy hoops.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>As strk mention gitlab is an alternative , though you may not be interested in it.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>From a pragmatic standpoint I think "why are we sanctioning spending $5000/yr in the name of OSGeo projects on something that people need to be under OSGeo github to take advantage of?".</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>First of all if this is something GDAL needs and Proj needs, then it should come out of GDAL's/ Proj's budget </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>So if Even were to say hay GDAL needs $5000/year for this thing, then by all means yes we should give it to him and he should put it in his budget.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>GDAL deserves that much per year. Same with Proj.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>But don't make it a "OSGeo Projects" need this. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>I don't need it I don't want it, and I don't see the point of having an OSGeo GitHub org that doesn't even reflect all our projects.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>It still stands that this would be a non-issue if you guys didn't create a skeletal OSGeo github group where GDAL and proj.4 are the projects eating up all the workers.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>If you each had your own project group on github you'd each have 5 workers end of story. You wouldn't even need to waste funding on this. </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>You'd also have more room to breathe as you can create many github subprojects as QGIS has done and not crowd everyone else out </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><a href="https://github.com/QGIS" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>https://github.com/QGIS</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>When people go to github to look for GDAL or proj.4 they could care less you are an OSGeo project. They already know YOU and are looking for YOU.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>If someone goes to </span><a href="https://github.com/OSGEO" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>https://github.com/OSGEO</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> they think - so these are all the projects OSGeo has – NOOOO. It's NEGATIVE advertising.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>So both my idealistic and pragmatic sides are disappointed by this movement to grow the github OSGeo Org for no benefit.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Regina</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Howard Butler [mailto:</span><a href="mailto:howard@hobu.co" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>howard@hobu.co</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 23, 2018 1:04 PM<br><b>To:</b> Regina Obe <</span><a href="mailto:lr@pcorp.us" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>lr@pcorp.us</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>><br><b>Cc:</b> Tim Sutton <</span><a href="mailto:tim@kartoza.com" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>tim@kartoza.com</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>>; Jeffrey Johnson <</span><a href="mailto:ortelius@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>ortelius@gmail.com</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>>; osgeo-board List <</span><a href="mailto:board@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>board@lists.osgeo.org</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>>; Sandro Santilli <</span><a href="mailto:strk@kbt.io" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>strk@kbt.io</span></a><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Board] Travis-CI & OSGeo</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'>On Apr 23, 2018, at 9:50 AM, Regina Obe <<a href="mailto:lr@pcorp.us" target="_blank">lr@pcorp.us</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>My issue is not that Even shouldn't be given the freedom to manage his project the way he wants. Of course he should.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'>Yes it is. You're arguing that you can spend $5000 on something more worthy than supporting GDAL with the project infrastructure it wants to maintain under OSGeo's umbrella.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>The point is that<span class=m9094320365087113557m-1633816790909922118apple-converted-space> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>1)</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> <span class=m9094320365087113557m-1633816790909922118apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>He is limited because he is under the OSGEO Project infrastructure on Github. If he were on his own project space, like PostGIS or QGIS (or Geos used to be), he wouldn't be limited by the 5 worker limit. I fail to see what benefit this Org is doing us when several of aour key projects aren't even on it (e.g. QGIS, GRASS, PostGIS) and even if they are what is the point, people should be lured to the osgeo website, not github.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'>This is a really good point. Why should projects that are to be on their own for infrastructure and support bother with putting anything under an OSGeo umbrella at all?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'>Or in a less snarky tone, OSGeo needs to decide if supporting projects with infrastructure is part of its mission. Member projects have no budgetary power to put resources into infrastructure capabilities that work for them of their choice, and there's a SAC beast that must be fed with money and take on new projects to continue to have relevance. Many projects actively avoid SAC and OSGeo resources because it is lesser quality infrastructure. It is lesser quality infrastructure because it is really damn hard to be all things to everybody. Add the fact that SAC is almost entirely unrecognized volunteer effort, and it is very difficult to succeed long term with any kind of staying power. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'>GitHub, Travis, and AppVeyor are products. They cost money. They are specialized tools. They work really well. They have organizations behind them. They didn't exist in 2006 when OSGeo was formed, so we started down the path of building our own. If we started in 2018, I'm unconvinced we would have built our own.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>3)</span><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#1F497D'> <span class=m9094320365087113557m-1633816790909922118apple-converted-space> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>I think with $5000, that's almost the size of the osgeo budget for hardware. I think of all the good we could do with $5000/yr and something that could help all projects not just things hosted on GitHub.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'>Infrastructure is *so* much more than a piece of hardware in a subsidized data center that graciously hosts us.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Like building up our own CI infrastructure that would test more than just Ubuntu.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'>You can use Docker with Travis to test whatever flavor you want.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div style='margin-left:.5in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>And what about AppVeryor. How much are you going to have to pay for that? Is it under the same core limitations or will you have to shell out an additional $5000/yr for that?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'>Yes, I would hope so. Sandro is very vocal about his disdain for Windows, so I'm sure he will complain, but you've made good business supporting windows prisoners, so maybe you won't. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'>Is OSGeo a software foundation that supports projects that make software, or is it an advocacy organization for users looking to get leverage off of free and open source software? The balance has been wildly tipped toward the latter the past 5 years... The board needs to clearly signal OSGeo's relationship to its member projects in this regard. I hope the board can ignore the flaming arrows Regina and I are shooting at each other in a battle that will never end and make a decision about OSGeo's relationship to its member projects and their infrastructure. If the relationship is "you must use SAC stuff", then the board needs to dump significantly more resources into burnishing that infrastructure to an outcome that might still be unsatisfactory. If the relationship is "use whatever you want and pay for it yourself", projects with the wherewithal to do so are going to do it outside of an organization that frankly isn't providing them with anything. If the relationship is "incubated projects get XXX dollars of infrastructure funding to spend on tools of its choosing", maybe this acts as both an incentive to incubate and a ring to reach for.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'>What we have now, where the answer is "volunteer your volunteers' time to build infrastructure within SAC" is not the solution.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'>Howard<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Board mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Board@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Board@lists.osgeo.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'><br><br clear=all><br>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'>Georepublic UG (haftungsbeschränkt)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'>Salzmannstraße 44, <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'>81739 München, Germany<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'>Vicky Vergara<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'>Operations Research<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'>eMail: vicky@<a href="http://georepublic.de/" target="_blank">georepublic.de</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'>Web: <a href="https://georepublic.info/" target="_blank">https://georepublic.info</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'>Tel: +49 (089) 4161 7698-1<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'>Fax: +49 (089) 4161 7698-9<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'>Commercial register: Amtsgericht München, HRB 181428<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'>CEO: Daniel Kastl<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style='margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></pre></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'>_______________________________________________<br>Board mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Board@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Board@lists.osgeo.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>—</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><br><img border=0 width=150 height=118 id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D3DB65.DAD442C0" alt="cid:image001.jpg@01D3DB65.DAD442C0"></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Tim Sutton</span></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Co-founder:</span></b><span class=m9094320365087113557apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Kartoza</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Project chair:</span></b><span class=m9094320365087113557apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><a href="http://QGIS.org" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>QGIS.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Visit </span><a href="http://kartoza.com/" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>http://kartoza.com</span></a><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> to find out about open source:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Desktop GIS programming services</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Geospatial web development</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>GIS Training</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Consulting Services</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>Skype</span></b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>: timlinux </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-align:center'><b><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>IRC:</span></b><span class=m9094320365087113557apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'> </span></span><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'>timlinux on #qgis at </span><a href="http://freenode.net" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>freenode.net</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________________<br>Board mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Board@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Board@lists.osgeo.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></body></html>