<div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">Hi Even,</span><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">thanks for the comments. I have put some more detail below.</div><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 12:58 PM, Even Rouault <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:even.rouault@spatialys.com" target="_blank">even.rouault@spatialys.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div style="font-family:'Sans Serif';font-size:9pt;font-weight:400;font-style:normal">
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">Norman,</p><span class="">
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> While this work is still experimental, we see a number of clear benefits to</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> COW over HTTP:</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> * Progressive in spatial position, resolution and quality</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
</span><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">As far as I understand JPEG2000, the issue is that you can't have at the same time fast spatial sub-window access and fast overview access in the same file layout. I believe the former is obtained with PCRL (Position-Component-<wbr>Resolution-Layer) progression order (but even with that, I believe you'd need several non-contiguous ranges as the precincts corresponding to the small overview level are common to several spatial regions), and the later with RPCL (Resolution-Position-<wbr>Component-Layer)</p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">I spent a lot of time working with JPIP and in my opinion it comes down to how you define fast. One contiguous download isn't necessarily fast. Several small downloads of packets may be faster. Add to that for each zoom level with COG you are downloading a new tile as opposed to incremental updates.</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">However I think there are a narrower subset of use cases for the complexity of COW vs COG.</div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="font-family:'Sans Serif';font-size:9pt;font-weight:400;font-style:normal"><span class="">
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> * Region of Interest encoding</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
</span><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">Is there a real use case for this ? If so, that could also be done with JPEG-in-TIFF. You can use different JPEG quality tables for each TIFF tile.</p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">ROI with J2K is sub-tile and tile boundaries with TIFF may cause artifacts. There are two use cases, obscuration and region enhancement at lower resolution levels. An example is the display use case of drawing the eye to a region of an image to zoom in on.</span> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="font-family:'Sans Serif';font-size:9pt;font-weight:400;font-style:normal"><span class="">
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> The biggest stumbling block with JPEG2000 has always been understanding the</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">> core spec which is very complex.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
</span><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">Indeed. Having spent several weeks trying to improve OpenJPEG performance last summer, this involves huge headaches. Currently one big limitation of openjpeg regarding to what you mention above is that the lib needs to ingest the whole codestream of a JPEG2000 tile (so the whole file for a single-tiled JPEG2000 file). This could perhaps be enhanced, but this is a non trivial work. But this would have to be done since COW without an open source implementation wouldn't get much traction.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">To check quickly if COW is something that has a potential, I'd suggest you try with the GDAL JP2KAK driver and /vsicurl/ and look at the range requests done.</p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">right, I did some quick experiments with the kakadu demo executables and creating different codestreams as I no longer have the kakadu sdk. It was some time ago now but I wrote the JPIPKAK driver.</div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br></div><div style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">I am currently evaluating this with Python and Numpy, but no commitment there on whether this will be a full library, as you say J2K is full of headaches.</div><span class="gmail-im" style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><div> <span style="font-size:small;color:rgb(34,34,34)"> </span></div></span></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="font-family:'Sans Serif';font-size:9pt;font-weight:400;font-style:normal">
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">Another issue is that even with the best implementation, the CPU time needed to decode JPEG2000 is way higher than with JPEG.</p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">Understood, I think this needs to be measured and is one of my goals. The use case of progressive updates might be preferable for a user in an interactive use case.</span></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="font-family:'Sans Serif';font-size:9pt;font-weight:400;font-style:normal">
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">Even</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">-- </p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px">Spatialys - Geospatial professional services</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px;text-indent:0px"><a href="http://www.spatialys.com" target="_blank">http://www.spatialys.com</a></p></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>