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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Bri wrote: “I'm not saying we should raise a
generation of waitresses and receptionists because it was the lazy choice - but
at the same time we need to overcome our own bias of non-tech fields as being
inherently inferior and encourage proper valuation of all roles in society.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I agree with your perspective on this 100%. I would argue
most surveyors make a rather modest living. I entered the profession not for
the money, but because I enjoyed drawing maps and wanted the chance to work
outdoors.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I didn’t mean to imply that people in technical
professions are somehow better than those in non-technical professions. I just
think we sometimes limit people because of our preconceived ideas about there
abilities. I study the bible with a young man who has Autism. Most people
expect very little from him. However, the young man has the most amazing
ability to remember of any person I have ever met in my life. I am always
trying to push him to do more, because I believe he is capable of more than
society expects.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>My main point is that we should encourage more diversity in
our professions. Software development and land surveying would benefit from
more women, and nursing would likely benefit from more men. (Ironically, I have
a good friend that is in school for nursing right now, and he is a man.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I believe having a diverse profession can ultimately lead to
new approaches to problems and new solutions. When I think about the small
company I work for, I realize diversity is an asset, and something we could use
more of. One of the things I have enjoyed about OpenJUMP is the opportunity to
work with people from all around the world. People that spell color as “colour”
instead of “color”. :]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Landon<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Brian Russo<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, November 17, 2009
5:30 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> OSGeo Discussions<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] new:
OSGeo women mailing list</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>I find the underlying
bias of this discussion itself fascinating. Landon is right that
surveying/engineering is male-dominated; yet nobody complains that nursing is
female-dominated. I have to wonder what really is the problem? Money aside -
what's inherently wrong with fewer women in math/science? Surveyors are more
important to our society than kindergarten teachers? Tough argument to make
IMO.<br>
<br>
Don't get me wrong, I know gender discrimination still exists, but I wonder if
we're so eager to solve a problem (being tech people that's what we do) that we
lose sight of what the goal is. I go to economic development presentations and
people talk about developing tech jobs etc. What they're really talking about
is developing jobs that make more money and are less resource-intensive - after
all green is the new black. That said, there are lots of skilled, well-paying
careers that aren't manufacturing nor easily outsourced yet aren't
math/science. So I'm not so much being critical as I am confused at the real purpose.<br>
<br>
As tech people that's a bias that is really hard for many of us to recognize we
even have. Some of us forget that there are other people out there with rich,
fulfilling lives that can barely turn on a computer. Welding for example - if
you're an amazing welder you can make a ton of money - and some people
certainly enjoy it. Or sales. Yeah I dislike talking to tech marketing people
on the phone too - but who am I to say their job is wrong for them. Don't get
me wrong, I'm not saying we should raise a generation of waitresses and
receptionists because it was the lazy choice - but at the same time we need to
overcome our own bias of non-tech fields as being inherently inferior and
encourage proper valuation of all roles in society. <br>
<br>
After all, it's arrogant to tell people what should be important for their
lives. I've known people that basically decided all they wanted to do in their
life is surf so they just live in a tiny apartment and make furniture on the
side so they can do what they love. Who am I to tell them that my life is
better? Because I make more money? I have a nicer cellphone? Big deal - if I
hated my life that wouldn't matter. You only get one life so you gotta live it
in a way that makes you happy. You can throw statistics into it like growth
expectations, salary, etc.. At the end of the day most of us will spend more
time working than any other task in our lives, so if you're not enjoying what
you're doing then you're doing it wrong.<br>
<br>
I don't have kids but I do work with youth a lot, fortunate to have some
amazing kids and you know I try to avoid telling them what to do - I just try
to help them discover their options and their value system. If they all decided
to go into retail and lead happy lives it'd make no difference to me than if they
all became neurosurgeons or aeronautical engineers. I genuinely do not care and
do not think it matters - as long as they get the best opportunities to
choose for themselves and lead fulfilling lives. One 17yo girl for example
wants to start a restaurant. Another is starting off in IT at Heald. So somehow
the second person is "better"? I just don't understand a mindset like
that. Does not compute.<br>
<br>
<br>
As for the original task of "how to encourage more women into these
fields" (which I'm for, I just don't think it's a problem if they all
choose not to) - well I think that Cornell study [1] is a good starting point
for anyone that wants to understand one glance at it. A lot of the
family-building aspect for example is related to how we prioritize work/life balance
in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>.
If you look at other countries like many in <st1:place w:st="on">Europe</st1:place>
they have far more family friendly cultures/laws with better maternal/paternal
leave options [2], etc. Our FMLA in the <st1:country-region w:st="on">US</st1:country-region>
is a joke compared to what you can get in <st1:country-region w:st="on">France</st1:country-region>,
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Sweden</st1:place></st1:country-region>,
etc - and I think it really speaks volumes about what we consider to be
important in our lives. <br>
<br>
That said, I don't know how this really is specific to osgeo in particular. It
may be better served under a broader focus of GIS for Women, Open Source for
Women.. etc. I guess I'm curious what sort of goals are set. University
recruitment? Encouraging female OS developers in general to engage in OSGeo?
I'm a bit lost on the intent.<br>
<br>
- bri<br>
<br>
<br>
1. Women’s Underrepresentation in Science: Sociocultural and Biological
Considerations - <a href="http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bul1352218.pdf">http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bul1352218.pdf</a><br>
2. <a
href="http://www.apesma.asn.au/women/maternity_leave_around_the_world.asp#Americas">http://www.apesma.asn.au/women/maternity_leave_around_the_world.asp#Americas</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 12:37 AM, Agustin Diez Castillo <<a
href="mailto:adiez@uv.es">adiez@uv.es</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>There are tons of articles about women and science since more than 20
years ago I will recomend a look to Longino (1987) [1].<br>
[1] <a href="http://www.jstor.org/pss/3810122" target="_blank">http://www.jstor.org/pss/3810122</a><br>
<br>
On Nov 16, 2009, at 9:58 PM, Landon Blake wrote:<br>
<br>
> <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Tyler</st1:place></st1:City>,<br>
><br>
> I understand your wife's perspective completely. It seems reasonable to<br>
> conclude that there are fewer women involved in OSGeo projects because<br>
> there are fewer women involved in open source computing to begin with.<br>
><br>
> A possible response to your wife's argument is that our society tends to<br>
> condition women for certain types of roles, and that we steer them away<br>
> from careers in math or science. I don't know if this is true, but I can<br>
> tell you I see the same lack of women in surveying and engineering as I<br>
> do in software development. I don't have any daughters, but I have a<br>
> couple nieces. It seems my younger niece, who is currently a freshman in<br>
> high school, doesn't get much encouragement to think about math and<br>
> science careers, although I think she has the brains for it. Her older<br>
> brother, who is a senior in high school, is being encouraged to pursue a<br>
> degree in mechanical engineering or a technical job in the <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region><br>
> Air Force.<br>
><br>
> This in just one small example of what may be a larger trend in the way<br>
> we view our children, at least in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region>.<br>
><br>
> If our society is guilty of this bias in the way we raise, train, and<br>
> teach our daughters, then some conscious effort to correct this bias is<br>
> probably not inappropriate.<br>
><br>
> I'm sure your wife and others have a response to this argument as well.<br>
> If nothing else, I think this is a good conversation to have.<br>
><br>
> Hopefully I did not just open Pandora's Box. :]<br>
><br>
> Landon<br>
> Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268<br>
> Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: Tyler Mitchell [mailto:<a href="mailto:tmitchell.osgeo@shaw.ca">tmitchell.osgeo@shaw.ca</a>]<br>
> Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 12:51 PM<br>
> To: Landon Blake<br>
> Cc: OSGeo Discussions<br>
> Subject: Re: RE: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] new: OSGeo women mailing list<br>
><br>
>> Maybe my statement was misunderstood?<br>
>><br>
>> I meant to say that members of the open source project discussed<br>
>> what we<br>
>> might do to encourage the participation of more women in the<br>
>> project. I<br>
>> think there was recognition across the board that the project<br>
>> would have<br>
>> benefited from more diversity.<br>
>><br>
>> I'm wondering if efforts to get young women more involved in<br>
>> math and<br>
>> science could be combined with encouraging them to try<br>
>> volunteering with<br>
>> an OSGeo project?<br>
><br>
> Hi Landon,<br>
><br>
> I understand, please bear with me, I'm probably the unclear one.
Some<br>
> of the women I know very well (one in particular :) tend to find it a<br>
> wee bit condescending to be treated like a "special" group when
in<br>
> reality they are fully capable of joining projects they are interested<br>
> in.<br>
><br>
> Speaking of open source software, if fewer women are involved I just<br>
> assume they aren't as interested.. just like any other group of people<br>
> that make their own choices regardless of what others think would be<br>
> optimal.<br>
><br>
> It's not a big deal to me, but I've been briefed on the subject from my<br>
> wife's angle regularly over the years so I feel compelled to pass it on<br>
> :-)<br>
><br>
> Best wishes,<br>
> <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Tyler</st1:place></st1:City><br>
><br>
><br>
> Warning:<br>
> Information provided via electronic media is not guaranteed against
defects including translation and transmission errors. If the reader is not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you
have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Discuss mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org">Discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" target="_blank">http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
><br>
<br>
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