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Hi Edzer,<br>
Thank you for raising this topic questioning the value of radsaman
community edition. It is pertinent considering recent discussions
about Rasdaman incubation.<br>
<br>
Peter, your comments about programmers wanting to get paid for their
work is valid, but does not provide justification for OSGeo
promoting a proprietary business model. OSGeo is in the business of
promoting open source software, and helping people who create open
source software.<br>
<br>
Rasdaman's business model is in a grey zone. It provides a community
edition and a proprietary edition. This is often referred to as an
"open core" business model, or sometimes less favorably called
"crippleware".<br>
I think Rasdaman is the only OSGeo (proposed) project which provides
an open core model. All prior projects have been pure open source.<br>
<br>
Although a an open core model deviates from OSGeo's original
principles, one could argue that Rasdaman community edition stands
on its own as a valuable, quality open source geospatial application
by itself, worthy of OSGeo promotion.<br>
<br>
Edzer's comments appear to counter this argument. Edzer, I
understand you suggest Rasdaman community edition is of little value
for real world problems?<br>
Extending from this, OSGeo endorsement of Rasdaman should be
questioned and potentially withdrawn. <br>
<br>
I'd be interested to hear opinions of others in the field as to
whether Rasdaman community version is of value for real-world
production systems by itself.<br>
<br>
A deeper question for the greater OSGeo community is should OSGeo
endorse Open Core business models?<br>
<br>
Warm regards, Cameron<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21/05/2016 6:07 pm, Peter Baumann
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:5740174A.6030309@jacobs-university.de"
type="cite">
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oh, just looking at the subject again:<br>
<br>
several service providers believe indeed rasdaman community does
offer a significant advantage:<br>
- see the download figures on <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.rasdaman.org">www.rasdaman.org</a><br>
- concretely, see <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.planetserver.eu">www.planetserver.eu</a> which
is running rasdaman community on - I believe - about 20 TB of
Planetary Science data.<br>
<br>
-Peter<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 05/21/2016 09:56 AM, Peter Baumann
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:574014B5.8010209@jacobs-university.de"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
Hm, first of all: this is opening a different thread, talking
about functionality of rasdaman community. Next, it is based on
assumptions - without details (because off topic): conclusions
are wrong.<br>
<br>
But to respond to the core message emphasized in the first
paragraph: I respectfully disagree. In particular, such a
position does not benefit the open source community very much as
I am trying to explain below. <br>
<br>
TL;DR:<br>
<br>
You have a strong expertise in Geoinformatics, I know something
about Computer Science. This is where we can talk as professors
and scientists. Your statement is about economics, industry etc.
Having an opinion there (and articulate it) is fair, but in
these fields our opinion weighs not more than anyone else's in
the street. We should not attempt to attain importance through
inapplicable roles.<br>
<br>
Let us look at a professor. They have a conveniently high salary
which is paid by society, that is: tax payers. Nobody can
influence what a professor does and how much return s/he
generates for society.<br>
<br>
A single open source developer (or a small group, whatever) do
not experience this convenience. They have a dream where they
invest, they try to not make money for getting richer than a
professor ;-) but merely for their economic survival. Some (in
particular scientists) enjoy the money rain coming from publicly
funded projects (again: the tax payer subsidizes), but most in
the community have to struggle hard. They face reluctant
customers, competition by the giants in the market, and many
more obstacles.<br>
<br>
From the cosy place of a lifelong position with a secured salary
and decent retirement funds it is easy to say that all software
should be free like free beer (quote from below: "can be
reproduced by other scientists without prohibitive license
costs").<br>
<br>
If the open source movement cannibalizes itself it will make it
all so easy for the big players to maintain their dominance,
they will silently applaud. Quoting Jeroen:<br>
> NEVER IGNORE COMPANIES AGAIN IN OSGEO OR FOSS4G! THEY ARE
NOT A THREAT, THEY ARE A NECESSITY.<br>
<br>
That said: It is entirely ok to have the opinion you have.
Others, though, may disagree. I am one of those.<br>
<br>
respectfully,<br>
Peter<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 05/20/2016 09:30 AM, Edzer
Pebesma wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:573EBD05.9050205@uni-muenster.de"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">As a scientist, I teach my students that for doing science it is a
requirement to work with open source software, because only then
workflows are fully transparent and can be reproduced by other
scientists without prohibitive license costs. Currently, working
with large amounts of earth observation (EO) or climate model data
typically requires to download these data tile by tile, stitch them
together, and go through all of them. Array databases may simplify
this substantially: after ingesting the tiles, they can directly
work on the whole data as a multi-dimensinal array ("data cube").
Computations on these array are typically embarassingly parallel,
and scale up with the number of cores in a cluster.
Rasdaman is an array data base that comes in two flavours, the open
source community edition (CE) and the commercial enterprise edition
(EE). The differences between the two are clear [1]. When I want to
use rasdaman CE (open source) for scalable image analysis, I get
stuck waiting for one core to finish everything [1]. This is not
going to solve any problems related to computing on large data,
and is not scalable. The bold claim that rasdaman.org opens with
("This worldwide leading array analytics engine distinguishes itself
by its flexibility, performance, and scalability") is not true for
the CE advertised. This has been mentioned in the past on mailing
lists [2,3], but the typical answer from Peter Baumann diverts into
other arguments. Also the benchmark graph (photo from an AGU poster)
[4] that Peter sent this week [5] must refer to the enterprise
edition, since Spark and Hive both scale, but rasdaman CE does not [3].
I assume that on the discussions on this list, ONLY the open
source community edition is considered, compared, and discussed,
as a potential future OSGeo project.
OSGeo supports the needs of the open source geospatial community [6].
Given
* the bold claims and continuing confusion about whether,
and which, rasdaman is scalable,
* the need for OSGeo to give good advice to prospective users
about technologies that do scale EO data analysis,
* the current (unfilled!) needs of scientists for good, open source
software for such analysis, and
* the potential conflict of interest of its creator [7],
I wonder wether OSGeo should recommend rasdaman CE to the open
source geospatial community.
[1] <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://rasdaman.org/wiki/Features">http://rasdaman.org/wiki/Features</a>
[2] <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/incubator/2014-October/002540.html">https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/incubator/2014-October/002540.html</a>
[3] <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21topic/rasdaman-users/66XL3tmDDQI">https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rasdaman-users/66XL3tmDDQI</a>
[4]
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/attachments/20160515/49200cd4/attachment.jpg">https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/attachments/20160515/49200cd4/attachment.jpg</a>
[5] <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2016-May/016099.html">https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2016-May/016099.html</a>
[6] <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.osgeo.org/content/faq/foundation_faq.html">http://www.osgeo.org/content/faq/foundation_faq.html</a>
[7] <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2016-May/016045.html">https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2016-May/016045.html</a>
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org">Discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="80">--
Dr. Peter Baumann
- Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann">www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann</a>
mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:p.baumann@jacobs-university.de">p.baumann@jacobs-university.de</a>
tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
- Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.rasdaman.com">www.rasdaman.com</a>, mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:baumann@rasdaman.com">baumann@rasdaman.com</a>
tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
"Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="80">--
Dr. Peter Baumann
- Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann">www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann</a>
mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:p.baumann@jacobs-university.de">p.baumann@jacobs-university.de</a>
tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
- Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.rasdaman.com">www.rasdaman.com</a>, mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:baumann@rasdaman.com">baumann@rasdaman.com</a>
tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
"Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)
</pre>
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<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org">Discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss">http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
P +61 2 9009 5000, W <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.lisasoft.com">www.lisasoft.com</a>, F +61 2 9009 5099</pre>
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