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<p>Dear Maria,<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 28.07.2018 20:08, María Arias de
Reyna wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAERgKeBnQwNOiaiqPfOCU99amDyD13ymExva9gw8qeQ78NzDEw@mail.gmail.com">
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<div>Dear Peter,
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Thanks for the explanation, I'm a software
engineer and I know very well how the process work. SQL is
indeed a good example of a good standard almost everyone
follows. But I would bet that's an exception in software. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I cannot completely disagree, unfortunately - much software is not
built to such rigorous processes, and in particular not with an
exact specification. During my work in the ISO SQL group (where we
brought in datacubes) I have learnt to deeply respect the rigor of
work there.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAERgKeBnQwNOiaiqPfOCU99amDyD13ymExva9gw8qeQ78NzDEw@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">
<div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I raised the intended bugs thing because in
recent years it had been very common to find intended "bugs"
in proprietary licensed software to steal data or open ports
to monitor usage. You never know how that will affect your
tests. When you use software that you don't know what is
doing in the background, you can't be really sure what the
result will be. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
hm, this still is unspecific allegations. Two thoughts:<br>
- can you name concrete cases?<br>
- IMHO we are talking of completely unrelated things here. I
understand that some people feel uneasy about a monitoring (although
this is very helpful also for open-source projects where you are in
need of statistics to claim your importance - we refrained from it
after internal discussion). What you describe would not affect
accuracy / correctness of tool results in any way, though. <br>
<br>
cheers,<br>
Peter<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAERgKeBnQwNOiaiqPfOCU99amDyD13ymExva9gw8qeQ78NzDEw@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">
<div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Kind regards, </div>
<div dir="auto">Maria. </div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">El sáb., 28 jul. 2018 19:48, Peter Baumann
<<a href="mailto:p.baumann@jacobs-university.de"
moz-do-not-send="true">p.baumann@jacobs-university.de</a>>
escribió:<br>
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<p>Dear Maria,<br>
</p>
<div class="m_-4920521315573284083moz-cite-prefix">On
25.07.2018 10:06, María Arias de Reyna wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at
9:57 AM, Peter Baumann <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:p.baumann@jacobs-university.de"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">p.baumann@jacobs-university.de</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Hi Christian,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>while I could not agree more to what you
say there is one point to disagree with:<br>
</p>
<span class="m_-4920521315573284083gmail-">
<br>
<div
class="m_-4920521315573284083gmail-m_2576443925540070409moz-cite-prefix">On
24.07.2018 18:43, Christian Willmes
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Dear Suchith,<br>
<br>
I understand your point, and I also
support your views on this, but this
is from my perspective a too
personal/particular issue, as to have
it as an "OSGeo open letter". Also,
because this is more of an ICA and not
so much an OSGeo issue, I think. <br>
<br>
First, I would keep it more general.
You address a particular issue (UN SDG
book published by esri), and also some
personal background (this should not
matter to the addressed subject). I
would recommend you keep it from being
personal and denouncing proprietary
GIS vendors. If a company plays by the
rules of science, there is nothing
wrong about that company publishing a
scientific book. I.e. almost all book
publishers are commercial companies
with interests somehow and somewhere.<br>
<br>
You need to “attack” scientific “wrong
doing” by that particular company in
conducting the editing and publication
of that book. Publishing books if done
correctly is not wrong, even by a
vendor with vested interests. But if
you witness, for example, that
submissions using open source GIS
solutions are disadvantaged against
the submissions using products of the
proprietary GIS vendor publishing the
book, that would be the point to raise
and attack.<br>
<br>
Second, better write about how it
should be done to avoid this negative
“Fake Science” things from happening.
Here the idea of Open Science and
Reproducible Science is key, i.e. the
most openness and transparency
possible. We just need more
transparency in science and also in
the whole process of editing/reviewing
and publishing a book. And this is
where OSGeo can contribute. Basically,
real reproducible and open science is
not possible without open source
software. If you can’t see how
something is implemented, you can not
really reproduce the results.<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span> No. Open science and open source
software are fundamentally different things.
For example, if you derive stats from some
data set via SQL it does not matter whether
it comes from open-source PostgreSQL or from
proprietary Oracle. Because the SQL language
in its syntax and semantics is standardized,
and it is assured thereby that both systems
will deliver the same results. So standards
actually are a prerequisite for science to
be comparable, but surely not open source.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>If you use proprietary products and can't
verify that the result is not due to a bug
(even an intended bug ), you are missing an
important step on verifiability. Open Source
(as in "I can see the code") is an important
piece of open science.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
that's not what software engineers would do normally. If
you feel a tool has a bug you'd<br>
- try to isolate through a minimal failing example<br>
- possibly try with another tool (in the case of
PostgreSQL, maybe try MariaDB) for verification<br>
- definitely contact the support list (in the case of
PostgreSQL, Regina & friends)<br>
<br>
Unless it is some simple scripting issue you (that is:
I) normally don't stand a chance to dive into the code.
Honestly, would we / could we spot a bug in the source
code for executing an index-only plan of a distributed
SQL query, after heuristic and cost-based optimizers
have done their work? I could not.<br>
<br>
Good software engineering practice is to work
specification-based, not by trying to hack yourself into
code.<br>
<br>
And both of that _can_ work well with both open-source
and proprietary tools. Again, SQL is the shining
example: a good specification says it all.<br>
<br>
BTW, why do you raise, on the fly, the accusation that
there may be "intended bugs"? Any evidence for this? I'd
like to learn more about such cases.<br>
<br>
cheers,<br>
Peter<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
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</blockquote>
<pre class="m_-4920521315573284083moz-signature" cols="80">--
Dr. Peter Baumann
- Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
<a class="m_-4920521315573284083moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann</a>
mail: <a class="m_-4920521315573284083moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:p.baumann@jacobs-university.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">p.baumann@jacobs-university.de</a>
tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
- Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
<a class="m_-4920521315573284083moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.rasdaman.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">www.rasdaman.com</a>, mail: <a class="m_-4920521315573284083moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:baumann@rasdaman.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">baumann@rasdaman.com</a>
tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
"Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)
</pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="80">--
Dr. Peter Baumann
- Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann">www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann</a>
mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:p.baumann@jacobs-university.de">p.baumann@jacobs-university.de</a>
tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
- Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.rasdaman.com">www.rasdaman.com</a>, mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:baumann@rasdaman.com">baumann@rasdaman.com</a>
tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
"Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)
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