<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><div class="gmail_default">Hello everyone.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">I have been reading this thread thoughtfully and I have several concerns.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">Firstly, I am of the belief that there is no scientific production tat is 100% objetive and factual; everything is tainted by the scientist baggage.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">Still, it's my opinion that the discussion should not focus as much in what others are saying our profesional environments are or should be, but in what we want to build as our community. And here is the thing, for me every FOSS4G, no matter where it's organized, is a representation of the community.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">Again, in my opinion, a conference that starts with an all male keynote lineup, doesn't represent the community I want to be a part of. Having women keynotes from the beginning it's inspiring, it allows us to dream of being a part of a scientific and professional environment that includes us as equals and listens tu us.</div><div class="gmail_default"><br></div><div class="gmail_default">Having been a part of the volunteer organization of 3 FOSS4G in Argentina, and coordinated one, I understand first hand the difficulties and limitations, but I also know that with effort it's possible to build to show in this events that the communities we are building are welcoming to all, and can help increase the number of women in the industries we are a part of as well as the communities.</div><br class="gmail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Cheers,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Malena</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">El sáb., 11 ago. 2018 a las 16:00, <<a href="mailto:discuss-request@lists.osgeo.org">discuss-request@lists.osgeo.org</a>> escribió:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Discuss mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: new to open source (Jody Garnett)<br>
2. Re: new to open source (Vicky Vergara)<br>
3. PostGIS 2.5.0beta2 release (Regina Obe)<br>
4. <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline"></div>Re: Diversity in FOSS4G (Jonathan Moules)<br>
5. Re: Diversity in FOSS4G (María Arias de Reyna)<br>
6. Re: Diversity in FOSS4G (Jonathan Moules)<br>
7. Re: Diversity in FOSS4G (María Arias de Reyna)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 12:02:20 -0700<br>
From: Jody Garnett <<a href="mailto:jody.garnett@gmail.com" target="_blank">jody.garnett@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:akash.aggarwal.mat15@itbhu.ac.in" target="_blank">akash.aggarwal.mat15@itbhu.ac.in</a><br>
Cc: OSGeo Discussions <<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] new to open source<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAOhbgAni2h8Ara98Pa2H77YHuaWeFyKBi7nt6bqYcanGpA9m5g@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAOhbgAni2h8Ara98Pa2H77YHuaWeFyKBi7nt6bqYcanGpA9m5g@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Akash:<br>
<br>
The google summer of code follows a set schedule, so it is some time yet<br>
before proposals are asked for. Minimum spanning tree does look<br>
interesting, perhaps have a look at projects like pgRouting to see how they<br>
handle network representations and if they either have a history of<br>
participation in GSOC or are planning to participate in 2019.<br>
<br>
I hope you enjoy your open source journey.<br>
--<br>
Jody Garnett<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 at 09:45, AKASH AGGARWAL 5-Yr IMD Math. & Computing <<br>
<a href="mailto:akash.aggarwal.mat15@itbhu.ac.in" target="_blank">akash.aggarwal.mat15@itbhu.ac.in</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
><br>
><br>
> Hello!<br>
> My name is Akash Aggarwal and i am a fourth year student at faculty of *mathematics<br>
> and computing *at *Indian Institute of Technology Banaras Hindu<br>
> University, Varanasi (IIT-BHU). *I am currently pursuing a bachelor's<br>
> degree in mathematical sciences.<br>
> I am willing to participate in Google Summer of Code 2019. I would love to<br>
> do so with OSGeo because i believe that your mission is very noble and that<br>
> i can gain a lot of software development knowledge from you.<br>
> I have a good knowledge of the technologies mentioned (c/c++,python etc.)<br>
> i will like to contribute to Implement Minimum Spanning Tree and min-cut.<br>
><br>
> i would like to ask any available mentors, if possible, for guidance on<br>
> what i should do next. I am all new to this field.<br>
><br>
> Thank you!<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Discuss mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
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<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 17:58:28 -0500<br>
From: Vicky Vergara <<a href="mailto:vicky@georepublic.de" target="_blank">vicky@georepublic.de</a>><br>
To: Jody Garnett <<a href="mailto:jody.garnett@gmail.com" target="_blank">jody.garnett@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:akash.aggarwal.mat15@itbhu.ac.in" target="_blank">akash.aggarwal.mat15@itbhu.ac.in</a>, OSGeo Discussions<br>
<<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] new to open source<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAK_FzuU4y3KeLqmjsT1GUBq-j7ojOJVQQewEJRyytBGk8Q_B%2Bg@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAK_FzuU4y3KeLqmjsT1GUBq-j7ojOJVQQewEJRyytBGk8Q_B+g@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Hello akash,<br>
<br>
I am VIcky from pgRouting project.<br>
As Jody mentions, you need to check on GSoC schedule.<br>
Don't limited yourself to GSoC, we welcome non GSoC contributions also.<br>
<br>
In particular, those algorithms that you mention they just have being<br>
implemented (by GSoC students).<br>
Any way, there are many many many Graph Algorithms that pgRouting would<br>
like to have.<br>
<br>
For a more ample discussion please sign up to pgRouting developers mailing<br>
list.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
Vicky<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Jody Garnett <<a href="mailto:jody.garnett@gmail.com" target="_blank">jody.garnett@gmail.com</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Akash:<br>
><br>
> The google summer of code follows a set schedule, so it is some time yet<br>
> before proposals are asked for. Minimum spanning tree does look<br>
> interesting, perhaps have a look at projects like pgRouting to see how they<br>
> handle network representations and if they either have a history of<br>
> participation in GSOC or are planning to participate in 2019.<br>
><br>
> I hope you enjoy your open source journey.<br>
> --<br>
> Jody Garnett<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wed, 1 Aug 2018 at 09:45, AKASH AGGARWAL 5-Yr IMD Math. & Computing <<br>
> <a href="mailto:akash.aggarwal.mat15@itbhu.ac.in" target="_blank">akash.aggarwal.mat15@itbhu.ac.in</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Hello!<br>
>> My name is Akash Aggarwal and i am a fourth year student at faculty of *mathematics<br>
>> and computing *at *Indian Institute of Technology Banaras Hindu<br>
>> University, Varanasi (IIT-BHU). *I am currently pursuing a bachelor's<br>
>> degree in mathematical sciences.<br>
>> I am willing to participate in Google Summer of Code 2019. I would love<br>
>> to do so with OSGeo because i believe that your mission is very noble and<br>
>> that i can gain a lot of software development knowledge from you.<br>
>> I have a good knowledge of the technologies mentioned (c/c++,python etc.)<br>
>> i will like to contribute to Implement Minimum Spanning Tree and min-cut.<br>
>><br>
>> i would like to ask any available mentors, if possible, for guidance on<br>
>> what i should do next. I am all new to this field.<br>
>><br>
>> Thank you!<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Discuss mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
>> <a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Discuss mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Georepublic UG (haftungsbeschränkt)<br>
Salzmannstraße 44,<br>
81739 München, Germany<br>
<br>
Vicky Vergara<br>
Operations Research<br>
<br>
eMail: <a href="mailto:vicky@georepublic.de" target="_blank">vicky@georepublic.de</a><br>
Web: <a href="https://georepublic.info" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://georepublic.info</a><br>
<br>
Tel: +49 (089) 4161 7698-1<br>
Fax: +49 (089) 4161 7698-9<br>
<br>
Commercial register: Amtsgericht München, HRB 181428<br>
CEO: Daniel Kastl<br>
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<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 06:41:27 -0400<br>
From: "Regina Obe" <<a href="mailto:lr@pcorp.us" target="_blank">lr@pcorp.us</a>><br>
To: "'PostGIS Development Discussion'" <<a href="mailto:postgis-devel@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">postgis-devel@lists.osgeo.org</a>><br>
Cc: "'PostGIS Users Discussion'" <<a href="mailto:postgis-users@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">postgis-users@lists.osgeo.org</a>>,<br>
<<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a>><br>
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] PostGIS 2.5.0beta2 release<br>
Message-ID: <001501d4315f$dc73ae90$955b0bb0$@<a href="http://pcorp.us" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">pcorp.us</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
The PostGIS Development team is pleased to release PostGIS 2.5.0beta2<br>
<br>
Source:<br>
<a href="https://downloads.osgeo.org/postgis/source/postgis-2.5.0beta2.tar.gz" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://downloads.osgeo.org/postgis/source/postgis-2.5.0beta2.tar.gz</a><br>
Docs: <br>
PDF - <a href="https://downloads.osgeo.org/postgis/docs/postgis-2.5.0beta2.pdf" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://downloads.osgeo.org/postgis/docs/postgis-2.5.0beta2.pdf</a><br>
HTML - <a href="https://downloads.osgeo.org/postgis/docs/doc-html-2.5.0beta2.tar.gz" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://downloads.osgeo.org/postgis/docs/doc-html-2.5.0beta2.tar.gz</a><br>
EPUB- <a href="https://downloads.osgeo.org/postgis/docs/postgis-2.5.0beta1.epub" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://downloads.osgeo.org/postgis/docs/postgis-2.5.0beta1.epub</a><br>
<br>
Changes since 2.5.0beta1 are as follows:<br>
<br>
* 4115, Fix a bug that created MVTs with incorrect property values under<br>
parallel plans (Raúl Marín).<br>
* 4120, ST_AsMVTGeom: Clip using tile coordinates (Raúl Marín).<br>
* 4132, ST_Intersection on Raster now works without throwing<br>
TopologyException<br>
(Vinícius A.B. Schmidt, Darafei Praliaskouski)<br>
* 4109, Fix WKT parser accepting and interpreting numbers with<br>
multiple dots (Raúl Marín, Paul Ramsey)<br>
* 4140, Use user-provided CFLAGS in address standardizer and the<br>
topology module (Raúl Marín)<br>
* 4143, Fix backend crash when ST_OffsetCurve fails (Dan Baston)<br>
* 4145, Speedup MVT column parsing (Raúl Marín)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please test and report any bugs to our ticket tracker or mailing list<br>
<br>
<a href="http://postgis.net/support/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://postgis.net/support/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
PostGIS Development Team<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 11:35:43 +0100<br>
From: Jonathan Moules <<a href="mailto:jonathan-lists@lightpear.com" target="_blank">jonathan-lists@lightpear.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Diversity in FOSS4G<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:c62b4235-8d07-d75d-fa94-943ff5d323c9@lightpear.com" target="_blank">c62b4235-8d07-d75d-fa94-943ff5d323c9@lightpear.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Glass-half-full observation: In a topic talking about the FOSS4G Asia <br>
diversity, no-one has commented on the commendable range of racial <br>
diversity in those keynotes.<br>
<br>
As to gender in keynotes, a Devils Advocate would point out there is no <br>
gender diversity in the 2018 Dar es Salaam keynote speakers either <br>
(assuming the four on the <a href="http://2018.foss4g.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">2018.foss4g.org</a> front page) - they're also all <br>
the same gender. Except that given the gender disparity in this field, <br>
it seems reasonable to me to conclude that Dar have probably done this <br>
intentionally whereas Asia's seems statistically plausible without even <br>
needing to factor in unconscious biases.<br>
<br>
And what of diversity of age? I'm fairly confident in guessing that the <br>
Asia keynotes are all 40s-50s. I'm less confident guessing Dar's, but <br>
I'd say in their 20's to 30's.<br>
<br>
Definition (from the OED):<br>
Diverse (Adj), "Showing a great deal of variety; very different."<br>
<br>
By that definition, neither have gender diversity, both have racial <br>
diversity (Asia's more-so), and both have little age diversity.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Jonathan<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2018-08-09 10:43, María Arias de Reyna wrote:<br>
> I agree this is a good topic to bring into the open, and not an easy<br>
> one. For what I have seen, FOSS4G Asia organization is doing a good<br>
> job, this is just a hard subject to address. Even if that keynote<br>
> lineup was full of women (like in main FOSS4G!) we still have to check<br>
> about the rest of speakers and the attendees. But you are right,<br>
> adding at least one woman keynoter can make a difference.<br>
><br>
> For those of you who may be reading this and need some context, this<br>
> is a long-distance race, not a sprint. Reaching outside your comfort<br>
> zone networks (usually mostly male contacts in the case of male<br>
> developers) to get more women speakers is not something you can do on<br>
> a blink. Specially if the organizers didn't have the problem in mind<br>
> when the organization started. We usually say that if you start<br>
> worrying about diversity after you choose the venue, you are already<br>
> too late.<br>
><br>
> I will be in FOSS4G Asia and I hope to get in contact with the<br>
> organization to know about their idiosyncrasy, their worries and their<br>
> challenges. Trying to help from here is difficult, as my networks are<br>
> mostly european and american. But still, we can work together in<br>
> strategies and how to improve diversity. I am going to give a talk<br>
> with Malena on Tanzania about general strategies and how to work on<br>
> improving diversity and my plan is to write down later whatever comes<br>
> from that conversation so we have some guidelines or good practices<br>
> that any OSGeo event can use.<br>
><br>
> Maybe it is time we renew the woman@osgeo mailing list to join forces?<br>
><br>
> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 12:25 AM, Jody Garnett <<a href="mailto:jody.garnett@gmail.com" target="_blank">jody.garnett@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> Hey Mark, good on you for voicing publicly. Our ability to discuss openly is<br>
>> a strength of our community, and one we are learning to use responsibly. I<br>
>> saw your tweet yesterday, but find the discussion list more useful for<br>
>> internal discussion such as this.<br>
>><br>
>> It is a hard balance between requesting or encouraging changes we want to<br>
>> see vs expressing dissapointment in the activities of others. This is<br>
>> especially important in a volunteer organization such as ours where<br>
>> disappointment however kindly expressed can hit really moral hard<br>
>> (especially as volunteers are pulling an event together).<br>
>><br>
>> I have been on both sides of this balance and it is never comfortable, as<br>
>> you express in your struggle above. Ideally, I seek to offer my time if I am<br>
>> in position to be of assistance and if the assistance is welcome. If not in<br>
>> a position to help I seek to learn or look for an opportunity for feedback.<br>
>><br>
>> I learned a lot as your foss4g event planning has unfolded and your<br>
>> challenges, priorities and direction became clear.<br>
>><br>
>> It is my hope that we will learn what challenges the foss4g-asia event is<br>
>> facing and what we as an organization can do to assist.<br>
>><br>
>> If you have been following the board meetings the Sri Lanka chapter is just<br>
>> being officially recognized (and the membership shows some diversity). OSGeo<br>
>> has also set aside funding for our president to attend the foss4g-asia<br>
>> event.<br>
>> --<br>
>> Jody Garnett<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 at 14:53, Mark Iliffe <<a href="mailto:markiliffe@gmail.com" target="_blank">markiliffe@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> Hi All,<br>
>>><br>
>>> I’ve really agonised over whether to send this email. First of which,<br>
>>> being the imminent final preparations for FOSS4G taking up a lot of time,<br>
>>> but also whether it’s appropriate for me in my role of chair of FOOS4G to<br>
>>> offer public critique of regional events. It is in this vein that I’d like<br>
>>> to really stress that I’m writing this as an OSSGeo charter member.<br>
>>><br>
>>> When I first saw this, my heart sank:<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.foss4g-asia.org/2018/keynotes/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.foss4g-asia.org/2018/keynotes/</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> Where is the gender diversity in the line up? I know that organising a<br>
>>> FOSS4G is really difficult, but we need to be reaching far and wide and that<br>
>>> starts with our keynotes. Potentially I’m missing something here - and I<br>
>>> probably am, if so I am sorry if this is the case! - but can we have a<br>
>>> rethink of the line up to really represent our community?<br>
>>><br>
>>> Thank you,<br>
>>><br>
>>> Mark<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Discuss mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
<br>
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Message: 5<br>
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 13:10:43 +0200<br>
From: María Arias de Reyna <<a href="mailto:delawen@gmail.com" target="_blank">delawen@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:jonathan-lists@lightpear.com" target="_blank">jonathan-lists@lightpear.com</a><br>
Cc: OSGeo Discussions <<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Diversity in FOSS4G<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAERgKeC7ykck-ckkE0c9HTQ0Z9dE%2BRxCE44dr_kAmPy-PYvVsg@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAERgKeC7ykck-ckkE0c9HTQ0Z9dE+RxCE44dr_kAmPy-PYvVsg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"<br>
<br>
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan Moules<br>
<<a href="mailto:jonathan-lists@lightpear.com" target="_blank">jonathan-lists@lightpear.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Glass-half-full observation: In a topic talking about the FOSS4G Asia<br>
> diversity, no-one has commented on the commendable range of racial diversity<br>
> in those keynotes.<br>
><br>
> As to gender in keynotes, a Devils Advocate would point out there is no<br>
> gender diversity in the 2018 Dar es Salaam keynote speakers either (assuming<br>
> the four on the <a href="http://2018.foss4g.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">2018.foss4g.org</a> front page) - they're also all the same<br>
> gender. Except that given the gender disparity in this field, it seems<br>
> reasonable to me to conclude that Dar have probably done this intentionally<br>
> whereas Asia's seems statistically plausible without even needing to factor<br>
> in unconscious biases.<br>
<br>
Once we have a 50% of speakers that are women (even 40%), we can start<br>
saying that having a full keynoter line of women speakers is no<br>
diversity. Up till then, having all women as keynoters is not a<br>
diversity issue, but an effort to try to promote gender diversity and<br>
balance with the rest of speakers. Or... maybe the keynoters were good<br>
on their own? Beware of thinking that chosen woman speakers are there<br>
only because of quotas.<br>
<br>
That's why I said we still have to check about percentages considering<br>
the full program. But as a starter, having a full male line of<br>
speakers is not a good sign. Statistics is only an excuse. I can<br>
understand that this can be something the organization didn't have in<br>
mind and, as they are volunteers, they have limited effort to spend on<br>
the organization of the conference and gender diversity was not on<br>
their priorities. As said, it is a subject difficult to approach and<br>
it is no good to try to fix it in a rush because you may end up doing<br>
more harm than you expected.<br>
<br>
For me, saying you are only seeing the glass half full is like saying<br>
"we have done enough, don't press more". While I think we should press<br>
much more! We already know the conference is going to have a lot of<br>
outstanding talks, the discussion here is where is the visibility for<br>
woman. I don't think any of us is demeaning the speakers lineup, we<br>
are just pointing to a real current problem we (all) have.<br>
<br>
> And what of diversity of age? I'm fairly confident in guessing that the Asia<br>
> keynotes are all 40s-50s. I'm less confident guessing Dar's, but I'd say in<br>
> their 20's to 30's.<br>
<br>
I agree that age diversity is another concern. And also having always<br>
the same "token" person talking. The classy "haha, I found a woman or<br>
a poc that gives good talks, let's put her everywhere!". Nope.<br>
<br>
But still, age diversity is something that gives everyone equal trait<br>
at some point because everyone reaches the "good" range of ages at<br>
some point of their lives. So, even if it is something we can improve,<br>
it is a problem way behind of the gender diversity problem, where some<br>
people just don't have an oportunity ever.<br>
<br>
> Definition (from the OED):<br>
> Diverse (Adj), "Showing a great deal of variety; very different."<br>
><br>
> By that definition, neither have gender diversity, both have racial<br>
> diversity (Asia's more-so), and both have little age diversity.<br>
<br>
So this means we are doing very good in racial diversity this year,<br>
but falling behind on gender diversity on regional events. Let's see<br>
if we can keep up on racial diversity next year for the main<br>
conference and improve gender diversity in regional events? As said,<br>
this is a long-distance race. It is not very helpful if we have a good<br>
racial diversity this year but forget about them in the following<br>
years.<br>
<br>
Also, good time to remind amazing work of TGP for bringing economic<br>
diversity to FOSS4G (which is another huge concern).<br>
<br>
><br>
> Cheers,<br>
> Jonathan<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On 2018-08-09 10:43, María Arias de Reyna wrote:<br>
><br>
> I agree this is a good topic to bring into the open, and not an easy<br>
> one. For what I have seen, FOSS4G Asia organization is doing a good<br>
> job, this is just a hard subject to address. Even if that keynote<br>
> lineup was full of women (like in main FOSS4G!) we still have to check<br>
> about the rest of speakers and the attendees. But you are right,<br>
> adding at least one woman keynoter can make a difference.<br>
><br>
> For those of you who may be reading this and need some context, this<br>
> is a long-distance race, not a sprint. Reaching outside your comfort<br>
> zone networks (usually mostly male contacts in the case of male<br>
> developers) to get more women speakers is not something you can do on<br>
> a blink. Specially if the organizers didn't have the problem in mind<br>
> when the organization started. We usually say that if you start<br>
> worrying about diversity after you choose the venue, you are already<br>
> too late.<br>
><br>
> I will be in FOSS4G Asia and I hope to get in contact with the<br>
> organization to know about their idiosyncrasy, their worries and their<br>
> challenges. Trying to help from here is difficult, as my networks are<br>
> mostly european and american. But still, we can work together in<br>
> strategies and how to improve diversity. I am going to give a talk<br>
> with Malena on Tanzania about general strategies and how to work on<br>
> improving diversity and my plan is to write down later whatever comes<br>
> from that conversation so we have some guidelines or good practices<br>
> that any OSGeo event can use.<br>
><br>
> Maybe it is time we renew the woman@osgeo mailing list to join forces?<br>
><br>
> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 12:25 AM, Jody Garnett <<a href="mailto:jody.garnett@gmail.com" target="_blank">jody.garnett@gmail.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hey Mark, good on you for voicing publicly. Our ability to discuss openly is<br>
> a strength of our community, and one we are learning to use responsibly. I<br>
> saw your tweet yesterday, but find the discussion list more useful for<br>
> internal discussion such as this.<br>
><br>
> It is a hard balance between requesting or encouraging changes we want to<br>
> see vs expressing dissapointment in the activities of others. This is<br>
> especially important in a volunteer organization such as ours where<br>
> disappointment however kindly expressed can hit really moral hard<br>
> (especially as volunteers are pulling an event together).<br>
><br>
> I have been on both sides of this balance and it is never comfortable, as<br>
> you express in your struggle above. Ideally, I seek to offer my time if I am<br>
> in position to be of assistance and if the assistance is welcome. If not in<br>
> a position to help I seek to learn or look for an opportunity for feedback.<br>
><br>
> I learned a lot as your foss4g event planning has unfolded and your<br>
> challenges, priorities and direction became clear.<br>
><br>
> It is my hope that we will learn what challenges the foss4g-asia event is<br>
> facing and what we as an organization can do to assist.<br>
><br>
> If you have been following the board meetings the Sri Lanka chapter is just<br>
> being officially recognized (and the membership shows some diversity). OSGeo<br>
> has also set aside funding for our president to attend the foss4g-asia<br>
> event.<br>
> --<br>
> Jody Garnett<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 at 14:53, Mark Iliffe <<a href="mailto:markiliffe@gmail.com" target="_blank">markiliffe@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hi All,<br>
><br>
> I’ve really agonised over whether to send this email. First of which,<br>
> being the imminent final preparations for FOSS4G taking up a lot of time,<br>
> but also whether it’s appropriate for me in my role of chair of FOOS4G to<br>
> offer public critique of regional events. It is in this vein that I’d like<br>
> to really stress that I’m writing this as an OSSGeo charter member.<br>
><br>
> When I first saw this, my heart sank:<br>
> <a href="http://www.foss4g-asia.org/2018/keynotes/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.foss4g-asia.org/2018/keynotes/</a><br>
><br>
> Where is the gender diversity in the line up? I know that organising a<br>
> FOSS4G is really difficult, but we need to be reaching far and wide and that<br>
> starts with our keynotes. Potentially I’m missing something here - and I<br>
> probably am, if so I am sorry if this is the case! - but can we have a<br>
> rethink of the line up to really represent our community?<br>
><br>
> Thank you,<br>
><br>
> Mark<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Discuss mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Discuss mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 13:43:43 +0100<br>
From: Jonathan Moules <<a href="mailto:jonathan-lists@lightpear.com" target="_blank">jonathan-lists@lightpear.com</a>><br>
To: María Arias de Reyna <<a href="mailto:delawen@gmail.com" target="_blank">delawen@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: OSGeo Discussions <<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Diversity in FOSS4G<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:02acf435-9173-f5e8-87ac-44d1919b437b@lightpear.com" target="_blank">02acf435-9173-f5e8-87ac-44d1919b437b@lightpear.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
> Once we have a 50% of speakers that are women (even 40%), we can <br>
start saying that having a full keynoter line of women speakers is no <br>
diversity.<br>
<br>
At the risk of asking a question that I know isn't meant to be asked - <br>
why 50%? Or "even 40%"? Surely the % should be around the same as the <br>
percentage of the workforce that engage in the field? This survey <br>
indicates it's about 37% globally so 40% would be reasonable - <br>
<a href="https://www.gislounge.com/gender-gis-workforce/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.gislounge.com/gender-gis-workforce/</a><br>
(Why the rate is 37% globally is an entirely different kettle of fish).<br>
<br>
> Up till then, having all women as keynoters is not a diversity <br>
issue, but an effort to try to promote gender diversity and balance with <br>
the rest of speakers.<br>
<br>
I included the definition of diversity for a reason. As stated, by <br>
definition neither of the conferences has any gender diversity in their <br>
keynotes. Now, if the Dar committee wants to engage in <br>
gender-discrimination when picking their speakers to try and rectify a <br>
shortage of female-speakers in the general line-up, that's their choice, <br>
but it cannot then be claim keynote "diversity" when there is, again by <br>
definition, no such diversity.<br>
<br>
What you appear to be saying is that it's fine to discriminate as long <br>
as it's in favour of the minority, aka "Affirmative action" which I <br>
think is just replacing one wrong with another.<br>
<br>
> For me, saying you are only seeing the glass half full is like saying <br>
"we have done enough, don't press more".<br>
I was commending them for the racial diversity they have (in a topic <br>
titled "Diversity in FOSS4G"), where others skipped over this and went <br>
straight to pointing out a diversity they had not achieved (while <br>
ironically not achieving it themselves).<br>
<br>
Personally I seek to be an egalitarian - I'm a big fan of equality - <br>
which is why I pointed out some of the various other forms of diversity <br>
as they so often get forgotten (age especially).<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2018-08-11 12:10, María Arias de Reyna wrote:<br>
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan Moules<br>
> <<a href="mailto:jonathan-lists@lightpear.com" target="_blank">jonathan-lists@lightpear.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> Glass-half-full observation: In a topic talking about the FOSS4G Asia<br>
>> diversity, no-one has commented on the commendable range of racial diversity<br>
>> in those keynotes.<br>
>><br>
>> As to gender in keynotes, a Devils Advocate would point out there is no<br>
>> gender diversity in the 2018 Dar es Salaam keynote speakers either (assuming<br>
>> the four on the <a href="http://2018.foss4g.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">2018.foss4g.org</a> front page) - they're also all the same<br>
>> gender. Except that given the gender disparity in this field, it seems<br>
>> reasonable to me to conclude that Dar have probably done this intentionally<br>
>> whereas Asia's seems statistically plausible without even needing to factor<br>
>> in unconscious biases.<br>
> Once we have a 50% of speakers that are women (even 40%), we can start<br>
> saying that having a full keynoter line of women speakers is no<br>
> diversity. Up till then, having all women as keynoters is not a<br>
> diversity issue, but an effort to try to promote gender diversity and<br>
> balance with the rest of speakers. Or... maybe the keynoters were good<br>
> on their own? Beware of thinking that chosen woman speakers are there<br>
> only because of quotas.<br>
><br>
> That's why I said we still have to check about percentages considering<br>
> the full program. But as a starter, having a full male line of<br>
> speakers is not a good sign. Statistics is only an excuse. I can<br>
> understand that this can be something the organization didn't have in<br>
> mind and, as they are volunteers, they have limited effort to spend on<br>
> the organization of the conference and gender diversity was not on<br>
> their priorities. As said, it is a subject difficult to approach and<br>
> it is no good to try to fix it in a rush because you may end up doing<br>
> more harm than you expected.<br>
><br>
> For me, saying you are only seeing the glass half full is like saying<br>
> "we have done enough, don't press more". While I think we should press<br>
> much more! We already know the conference is going to have a lot of<br>
> outstanding talks, the discussion here is where is the visibility for<br>
> woman. I don't think any of us is demeaning the speakers lineup, we<br>
> are just pointing to a real current problem we (all) have.<br>
><br>
>> And what of diversity of age? I'm fairly confident in guessing that the Asia<br>
>> keynotes are all 40s-50s. I'm less confident guessing Dar's, but I'd say in<br>
>> their 20's to 30's.<br>
> I agree that age diversity is another concern. And also having always<br>
> the same "token" person talking. The classy "haha, I found a woman or<br>
> a poc that gives good talks, let's put her everywhere!". Nope.<br>
><br>
> But still, age diversity is something that gives everyone equal trait<br>
> at some point because everyone reaches the "good" range of ages at<br>
> some point of their lives. So, even if it is something we can improve,<br>
> it is a problem way behind of the gender diversity problem, where some<br>
> people just don't have an oportunity ever.<br>
><br>
>> Definition (from the OED):<br>
>> Diverse (Adj), "Showing a great deal of variety; very different."<br>
>><br>
>> By that definition, neither have gender diversity, both have racial<br>
>> diversity (Asia's more-so), and both have little age diversity.<br>
> So this means we are doing very good in racial diversity this year,<br>
> but falling behind on gender diversity on regional events. Let's see<br>
> if we can keep up on racial diversity next year for the main<br>
> conference and improve gender diversity in regional events? As said,<br>
> this is a long-distance race. It is not very helpful if we have a good<br>
> racial diversity this year but forget about them in the following<br>
> years.<br>
><br>
> Also, good time to remind amazing work of TGP for bringing economic<br>
> diversity to FOSS4G (which is another huge concern).<br>
><br>
>> Cheers,<br>
>> Jonathan<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 2018-08-09 10:43, María Arias de Reyna wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> I agree this is a good topic to bring into the open, and not an easy<br>
>> one. For what I have seen, FOSS4G Asia organization is doing a good<br>
>> job, this is just a hard subject to address. Even if that keynote<br>
>> lineup was full of women (like in main FOSS4G!) we still have to check<br>
>> about the rest of speakers and the attendees. But you are right,<br>
>> adding at least one woman keynoter can make a difference.<br>
>><br>
>> For those of you who may be reading this and need some context, this<br>
>> is a long-distance race, not a sprint. Reaching outside your comfort<br>
>> zone networks (usually mostly male contacts in the case of male<br>
>> developers) to get more women speakers is not something you can do on<br>
>> a blink. Specially if the organizers didn't have the problem in mind<br>
>> when the organization started. We usually say that if you start<br>
>> worrying about diversity after you choose the venue, you are already<br>
>> too late.<br>
>><br>
>> I will be in FOSS4G Asia and I hope to get in contact with the<br>
>> organization to know about their idiosyncrasy, their worries and their<br>
>> challenges. Trying to help from here is difficult, as my networks are<br>
>> mostly european and american. But still, we can work together in<br>
>> strategies and how to improve diversity. I am going to give a talk<br>
>> with Malena on Tanzania about general strategies and how to work on<br>
>> improving diversity and my plan is to write down later whatever comes<br>
>> from that conversation so we have some guidelines or good practices<br>
>> that any OSGeo event can use.<br>
>><br>
>> Maybe it is time we renew the woman@osgeo mailing list to join forces?<br>
>><br>
>> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 12:25 AM, Jody Garnett <<a href="mailto:jody.garnett@gmail.com" target="_blank">jody.garnett@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Hey Mark, good on you for voicing publicly. Our ability to discuss openly is<br>
>> a strength of our community, and one we are learning to use responsibly. I<br>
>> saw your tweet yesterday, but find the discussion list more useful for<br>
>> internal discussion such as this.<br>
>><br>
>> It is a hard balance between requesting or encouraging changes we want to<br>
>> see vs expressing dissapointment in the activities of others. This is<br>
>> especially important in a volunteer organization such as ours where<br>
>> disappointment however kindly expressed can hit really moral hard<br>
>> (especially as volunteers are pulling an event together).<br>
>><br>
>> I have been on both sides of this balance and it is never comfortable, as<br>
>> you express in your struggle above. Ideally, I seek to offer my time if I am<br>
>> in position to be of assistance and if the assistance is welcome. If not in<br>
>> a position to help I seek to learn or look for an opportunity for feedback.<br>
>><br>
>> I learned a lot as your foss4g event planning has unfolded and your<br>
>> challenges, priorities and direction became clear.<br>
>><br>
>> It is my hope that we will learn what challenges the foss4g-asia event is<br>
>> facing and what we as an organization can do to assist.<br>
>><br>
>> If you have been following the board meetings the Sri Lanka chapter is just<br>
>> being officially recognized (and the membership shows some diversity). OSGeo<br>
>> has also set aside funding for our president to attend the foss4g-asia<br>
>> event.<br>
>> --<br>
>> Jody Garnett<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 at 14:53, Mark Iliffe <<a href="mailto:markiliffe@gmail.com" target="_blank">markiliffe@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Hi All,<br>
>><br>
>> I’ve really agonised over whether to send this email. First of which,<br>
>> being the imminent final preparations for FOSS4G taking up a lot of time,<br>
>> but also whether it’s appropriate for me in my role of chair of FOOS4G to<br>
>> offer public critique of regional events. It is in this vein that I’d like<br>
>> to really stress that I’m writing this as an OSSGeo charter member.<br>
>><br>
>> When I first saw this, my heart sank:<br>
>> <a href="http://www.foss4g-asia.org/2018/keynotes/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.foss4g-asia.org/2018/keynotes/</a><br>
>><br>
>> Where is the gender diversity in the line up? I know that organising a<br>
>> FOSS4G is really difficult, but we need to be reaching far and wide and that<br>
>> starts with our keynotes. Potentially I’m missing something here - and I<br>
>> probably am, if so I am sorry if this is the case! - but can we have a<br>
>> rethink of the line up to really represent our community?<br>
>><br>
>> Thank you,<br>
>><br>
>> Mark<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Discuss mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
>> <a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Discuss mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
>> <a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 7<br>
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 15:29:59 +0200<br>
From: María Arias de Reyna <<a href="mailto:delawen@gmail.com" target="_blank">delawen@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:jonathan-lists@lightpear.com" target="_blank">jonathan-lists@lightpear.com</a><br>
Cc: OSGeo Discussions <<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Diversity in FOSS4G<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAERgKeC-ZQ8NOY4KgXQkHfAxfYY5Z2Z2x4ZO9mf13pQKez7B1g@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAERgKeC-ZQ8NOY4KgXQkHfAxfYY5Z2Z2x4ZO9mf13pQKez7B1g@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"<br>
<br>
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 2:43 PM, Jonathan Moules<br>
<<a href="mailto:jonathan-lists@lightpear.com" target="_blank">jonathan-lists@lightpear.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> Once we have a 50% of speakers that are women (even 40%), we can start<br>
>> saying that having a full keynoter line of women speakers is no diversity.<br>
><br>
> At the risk of asking a question that I know isn't meant to be asked - why<br>
> 50%? Or "even 40%"? Surely the % should be around the same as the percentage<br>
> of the workforce that engage in the field? This survey indicates it's about<br>
> 37% globally so 40% would be reasonable -<br>
> <a href="https://www.gislounge.com/gender-gis-workforce/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.gislounge.com/gender-gis-workforce/</a><br>
> (Why the rate is 37% globally is an entirely different kettle of fish).<br>
><br>
<br>
This is a common mistake. If you aim for the already declining<br>
percentage of women, you will not get far. You have to aim for the<br>
percentage of population. The fact that only 37% of our industry is<br>
female is itself a problem we have to address.<br>
<br>
The lack of role models (speakers? women in the mailing lists? women<br>
in developer leading roles?) and specially the lack of a friendly<br>
environment for women at work is a problem in most tech related<br>
industries:<br>
<a href="https://code.likeagirl.io/women-are-leaving-tech-and-management-is-responsible-a6187a4d5d81" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://code.likeagirl.io/women-are-leaving-tech-and-management-is-responsible-a6187a4d5d81</a><br>
<a href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/02/28/why-women-leave-the-tech-industry-at-a-45-higher-rate-than-men/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/02/28/why-women-leave-the-tech-industry-at-a-45-higher-rate-than-men/</a><br>
<br>
Not my best talk (blame jet lag), but this can give you more<br>
perspective: <a href="https://vimeo.com/241597584" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://vimeo.com/241597584</a><br>
<br>
And this also applies to racial diversity. If the global foss4g is<br>
mostly white... we have a problem.<br>
<br>
But going back to the topic of this thread, until we have half of the<br>
developers/speakers/users being woman, we have a problem. And the<br>
longer we ignore it, the worse it gets.<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Subject: Digest Footer<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Discuss mailing list<br>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
End of Discuss Digest, Vol 140, Issue 8<br>
***************************************<br>
</blockquote></div></div>