<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Hi Charles,<br>
Insightful feedback, yet again.<br>
<br>
Yes, I agree that an excellent starting point for building training
material is to identify user needs, define a curriculum, and then
trace that to the training material to create.<br>
<br>
Yes, I also agree, that collaboratively creating and maintaining
training material is a bigger challenge than we faced when starting
OSGeo-Live. Mind you, I'm also convinced that if suitably resourced,
it is a very achievable goal.<br>
<br>
Dimitris, Helena, Venka, others,<br>
I acknowledge your concerns about introducing bureaucracy (although
what I'm proposing is structure and process, which in my mind is
slightly different). If OSGeo Labs as it is currently set up
addresses what you are looking for, then great. It certainly has
been very successful at attracting and networking like minded Open
GIS educators.<br>
<br>
Warm regards,<br>
Cameron<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/06/2015 11:18 pm, Charles Schweik
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAAqFMQ=cb2boKoVWzgUuzdusAP-WVonQ-srQfFjMNaLTr2Xhtg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Cameron, all
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(VERY sorry for a long note -- not sure how else to do
this)<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. Cameron - Your points are well taken as well -- and
your work leading the Live DVD is a one of the best examples
of positive example of global, productive collaboration. You
weren't asking for this but you and your collaborators
deserve a huge 'GREAT JOB' and I know rules and structure
and standards drives what you've been able to do. Your
insight is really valuable and you've got proof of concept.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2. Regarding rules for GeoForAll lab creation, we have
some here [1] and the question is are they enough or
well-defined enough. I think Demitris and I and others are
arguing to keep them light or as 'frictionless' as possible,
with some regular check like Helena has been doing (thanks
Helena!). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>3. Turning to your 'want to achieve more collaboratively'
question, I think we do.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The challenge is how to do this. I don't know the history
of the Live DVD, but clearly you were able to create a
vision, and find people who were motivated to contribute to
it under the rules you crafted (this is an art, and you do
it well). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Under Suchith's leadership, we've made great progress
identifying people/labs worldwide. Now we need to move
beyond the simple listing of labs toward something more
collaborative that moves us all forward. It's here that I
think Eric von Hippel's [2] ideas of 'user-innovation' or
'user-centered need' is so important. We need to find things
to collaborate on (educational material, research) that
motivates people to contribute *because they need it* and it
helps them in their own careers/work/leisure... whatever.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is why I believe the Urban Science/Cities effort led
by Patrick Hogan and Chris Pettit is so important [2b]. On
the <b>Research side</b>, we've identified an area that a
subset of labs want to collaborate. It's not as clear as the
Live DVD, but it is a step closer. One next step is to find
some funding to help us begin to get more clarity as a
community, which we are trying to do right now. My hope is
that through this process others in the group will build on
or refine our collaborative ideas on Smart City research and
go after funds they have access to through their own
countries, but with an eye to continue to move our entire
group forward. This is why I like the 'grant sprint' idea. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Suchith's offered up another research collaboration focal
area -- Agri-GIS -- which hopefully will gain some traction
with some people from some labs. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>On the Education side</b>, this has been a tough nut
to crack, and you and I have had conversations about this
years ago. Just my postings on Web-GIS has identified at
least 4 efforts of educational content that I was not aware
of. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But following your Live DVD example, what we really need
is to define a curriculum and then try and line up faculty
in our network who all are already teaching or want to teach
some of that curriculum in their own institutions
(user-centered need). I think this is bigger than the Live
DVD production process, but perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps the
accreditation discussion will help us toward such a
curriculum. The GeoAcademy folks [5] provide one important
example. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Another step forward is what we've tried in the past --
first inventorying what people are doing. Our old OSGeo
educational inventory with simple course metadata and links
[3] generated the most sharing I think we have seen, and I
think that is because it was easy to do in short time for
people. <b>I personally believe we need to get the input
page [4] operational again</b>. It's not sharing of
content, but it is at least a place for us to store links to
what people are doing. I've put a ticket in to get this
fixed, but haven't heard anything. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Moving forward, we need to get a repository for storage
of educational source material that would allow people to
place them there and others to create new derivatives. We
have two options here currently -- the ELOGeo system that
Suchith and others have implemented [6, link is not
working..., we need to fix that], and a GitHub system that
Rick Smith at Texas A&M has created. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>My hope is that in the short time some of us will have
in FOSS4G EU, we'll be able to make some progress on this
education side collaboration</b>. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My two pence. I hope I don't sound like I'm preaching! I
just continue to puzzle over how to create deep
collective-action in our community. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Charlie </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[1] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.geoforall.org/how_to_join/"
target="_blank">http://www.geoforall.org/how_to_join/</a></div>
<div>[2] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://web.mit.edu/evhippel/www/books/DI/DemocInn.pdf"
target="_blank">http://web.mit.edu/evhippel/www/books/DI/DemocInn.pdf</a></div>
<div>[2b] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/GeoForAll_UrbanScience_CityAnalytics">http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/GeoForAll_UrbanScience_CityAnalytics</a> </div>
<div>[3] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.osgeo.org/educational_content"
target="_blank">http://www.osgeo.org/educational_content</a></div>
<div>[4] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.osgeo.org/node/add/edu-content"
target="_blank">https://www.osgeo.org/node/add/edu-content</a></div>
<div>[5] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://fossgeo.org/2015/04/10/announcing-the-new-geo-academy/"
target="_blank">http://fossgeo.org/2015/04/10/announcing-the-new-geo-academy/</a></div>
<div>[6] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/ngi/research/geospatial-science/projects/elogeo.aspx"
target="_blank">http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/ngi/research/geospatial-science/projects/elogeo.aspx</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 1:10 PM, Cameron
Shorter <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cameron.shorter@gmail.com" target="_blank">cameron.shorter@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dimitris
and Charles,<br>
You have a valid point, simple is good. Yes, "hoops to jump
through" hinders a project, but structure should be
introduced if there is substantial value gained from its
introduction. Structure helps achieve higher collaborative
goals. In the case of Open Source Software that includes
setting up a code repository, developer accounts, releases,
issue trackers, etc. Have a look at the OSGeo Incubation
docs [1] if you want to see more.<br>
<br>
The REL community has successfully set up great
collaborative communication channels. This is valuable, but
there is more that could be achieved by introducing some
structure and coordination. In particular, I think some
structure and processes would significantly help to
collaboratively create and maintain educational training
material.<br>
<br>
I suspect it would also help institutions bid for funds to
be involved.<br>
<br>
The processes should certainly be kept as simple as
possible, but some process is required to collaborate
effectively.<br>
<br>
So I ask, do educators want to try to achieve more
collaboratively?<br>
* Maybe create training material?<br>
* Anything else?<br>
<br>
[1] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.osgeo.org/incubator/process/project_graduation_checklist.html"
target="_blank">http://www.osgeo.org/incubator/process/project_graduation_checklist.html</a><br>
<br>
On 2/06/2015 8:36 pm, Suchith Anand wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Dimitris ,<br>
<br>
Thank you for these excellent points. (And thanks Charlie
for the interesting article reference).<br>
<br>
Yes, participation itself in a global network with
excellent people is the biggest benifit for all (those
active and those not that active). We need to find
mechanisms to encourage and help those not that active to
be more involved and active.<br>
<br>
I also agree that the very simple reporting suggested is
just for understanding the bigger picture of the community
and encourage more collaboration opportunities but not to
be used as a criterion to continue someone's participation
( in fact, we can use this opportunity to help those who
need more support). Cameron and others who have great
experience with success of OSGeo Live can give us more
ideas to help us.<br>
<br>
Suchith<br>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@lists.osgeo.org"
target="_blank">ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@lists.osgeo.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@lists.osgeo.org"
target="_blank">ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@lists.osgeo.org</a>]
On Behalf Of Charles Schweik [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cschweik@pubpol.umass.edu" target="_blank">cschweik@pubpol.umass.edu</a>]<br>
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2015 11:12 AM<br>
To: Dimitris Kotzinos<br>
Cc: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ica-osgeo-labs@lists.osgeo.org"
target="_blank">ica-osgeo-labs@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] Defining criteria for REL
membership<br>
<br>
+1<br>
<br>
One of my favorite quotes by open source advocate Eric
Raymond is below, and relevant:<br>
<br>
'... the number of contributors (and, at second order, the
success of) projects is strongly and inversely correlated
with the number of hoops each project makes a contributing
user go through.' [1]<br>
<br>
[1] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://timreview.ca/article/645" target="_blank">http://timreview.ca/article/645</a><br>
<br>
On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Dimitris Kotzinos <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kotzino@gmail.com"
target="_blank">kotzino@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kotzino@gmail.com"
target="_blank">kotzino@gmail.com</a>>> wrote:<br>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
I followed the exchange of e-mails on "advancing" the
requirements for<br>
participating in the GeoForAll, beyond just checking for
inactivity.<br>
I think that we should try to keep things simple; actually
I think that<br>
one of the points of the unprecedented success and growth
the network<br>
has seen, is based on the fact that things have been kept
simple and not<br>
very demanding in terms of time. I think the important
point is to keep<br>
people interested and involved. The many good people that
already<br>
participate and are active guarantee the growth of the
network. If<br>
someone is not very active in my view should be encouraged
and helped<br>
(as Suchith suggested) and not be thrown out or e.g. in
incubation. We<br>
have to consider also how valuable such participation is
for<br>
universities from developing countries, both in terms of
best practices<br>
and materials.<br>
For me the main benefit of participation, is ...
participation itself in<br>
a global network with excellent people submitting
proposals like the<br>
ones by Charlie or Maria and while as usual few people
will drive the<br>
initiatives the more that participate the better it is.<br>
Needless to say that some simple reporting is more than
welcome for<br>
understanding the bigger picture of the community but not
to be used as<br>
a criterion to continue someone's participation. In
practical terms we<br>
can always poke people from time to time to understand if
they want to<br>
continue being part or not as Helena did now (thanks
Helena).<br>
<br>
So let's try to hit the 100 members mark!<br>
<br>
Best regards to all,<br>
Dimitris<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
ica-osgeo-labs mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ica-osgeo-labs@lists.osgeo.org"
target="_blank">ica-osgeo-labs@lists.osgeo.org</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ica-osgeo-labs@lists.osgeo.org"
target="_blank">ica-osgeo-labs@lists.osgeo.org</a>><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs"
target="_blank">http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Charlie Schweik<br>
<br>
Associate Professor, University of Massachusetts, Amherst<br>
Dept of Environmental Conservation and Center for Public
Policy and Administration<br>
<br>
Personal website: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://people.umass.edu/cschweik" target="_blank">http://people.umass.edu/cschweik</a><br>
Publications: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://works.bepress.com/charles_schweik/"
target="_blank">http://works.bepress.com/charles_schweik/</a><br>
<br>
Author, Internet Success: A Study of Open Source Software
(MIT Press, 2012) - see <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545</a><br>
<br>
--------------------------------------------<br>
Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?<br>
A: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://five.sentenc.es" target="_blank">http://five.sentenc.es</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
This message and any attachment are intended solely for
the addressee<br>
and may contain confidential information. If you have
received this<br>
message in error, please send it back to me, and
immediately delete it.<br>
<br>
Please do not use, copy or disclose the information
contained in this<br>
message or in any attachment. Any views or opinions
expressed by the<br>
author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views
of the<br>
University of Nottingham.<br>
<br>
This message has been checked for viruses but the contents
of an<br>
attachment may still contain software viruses which could
damage your<br>
computer system, you are advised to perform your own
checks. Email<br>
communications with the University of Nottingham may be
monitored as<br>
permitted by UK legislation.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
ica-osgeo-labs mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ica-osgeo-labs@lists.osgeo.org"
target="_blank">ica-osgeo-labs@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs"
target="_blank">http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs</a><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
-- <br>
Cameron Shorter,<br>
Software and Data Solutions Manager<br>
LISAsoft<br>
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,<br>
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009<br>
<br>
P <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B61%202%209009%205000" value="+61290095000"
target="_blank">+61 2 9009 5000</a>, W <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.lisasoft.com"
target="_blank">www.lisasoft.com</a>, F <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B61%202%209009%205099"
value="+61290095099" target="_blank">+61 2 9009 5099</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
ica-osgeo-labs mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ica-osgeo-labs@lists.osgeo.org"
target="_blank">ica-osgeo-labs@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs"
target="_blank">http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Charlie Schweik<br>
<br>
Associate Professor, University of Massachusetts,
Amherst
<div>Dept of Environmental Conservation and Center for
Public Policy and Administration</div>
<div><br>
<div>Personal website: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://people.umass.edu/cschweik"
target="_blank">http://people.umass.edu/cschweik</a></div>
<div>Publications: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://works.bepress.com/charles_schweik/"
target="_blank">http://works.bepress.com/charles_schweik/</a></div>
<div><br>
Author, Internet Success: A Study of Open Source
Software (MIT Press, 2012) - see <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545</a></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>--------------------------------------------</div>
<div>Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?</div>
<div>A: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://five.sentenc.es" target="_blank">http://five.sentenc.es</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
P +61 2 9009 5000, W <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.lisasoft.com">www.lisasoft.com</a>, F +61 2 9009 5099</pre>
</body>
</html>