<div dir="ltr"><div>Its great to see the good communication. Thanks for the thorough status update Arnulf.</div><div><br></div><div>It seemed like there might be some concern about Oskari not getting enough outside contributions? I'll note the incubation wiki page says this:</div><div><br></div><div>
<p>"There are more than ten active developers from multiple organizations, both from the public and private sectors. Examples of organizations are National Land Survey of Finland, Natural Resources Institute Finland, Dimenteq Ltd, CGI Finland Ltd.</p><p>Find more details at <a rel="nofollow" class="external gmail-free" href="https://github.com/oskariorg/oskari-server/graphs/contributors">https://github.com/oskariorg/oskari-server/graphs/contributors</a> and <a rel="nofollow" class="external gmail-free" href="https://verkosto.oskari.org/en/community-2/">https://verkosto.oskari.org/en/community-2/</a> (organizational members)"</p><p>Landon<br></p></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 1:01 AM, Cameron Shorter <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:cameron.shorter@gmail.com" target="_blank">cameron.shorter@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Aarnio, Arnulf,</p>
<p>I just checked up on the link Arnulf pointed us to, <a href="https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Oskari_Incubation_Status" target="_blank">https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/<wbr>Oskari_Incubation_Status</a>,
and it appears you are using an old version of the OSGeo
Incubation Checklist. This is understandable, as our incubation
docs have not been copied across into our new website. (Mumble,
mumble, grrr, grr.)</p>
<p>This is the checklist we should be using:<br>
<a class="m_1209278531147952682moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://old.www.osgeo.org/incubator/process/project_graduation_checklist.html" target="_blank">http://old.www.osgeo.org/<wbr>incubator/process/project_<wbr>graduation_checklist.html</a><br>
</p><div><div class="h5">
<br>
<div class="m_1209278531147952682moz-cite-prefix">On 6/7/18 10:10 pm, Aarnio Timo (MML)
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_1209278531147952682WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">Dear
list members!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">Thank
you so much for you assesment Arnulf and thank you for your
valuable comments Cameron and Bruce!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">I’ll
try to answer some of the questions and concerns raised
here.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">The
mailing list has been so far more as Arnulf described, an
announcement channel. However there have been multiple
questions and answers regarding the software as well. You’ve
gotta start somewhere right? Also some people seem to
dislike email lists and say that they are old fashioned.
Personally I don’t completely agree but I see where these
comments are coming from.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">In
our day to day work we use Slack (and nowadays also
Rocket.Chat) for communication. I agree that having logs
from our chats might be beneficial for others, but there are
at least two things to note here:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">-
We use the free version of Slack which supports only 10k
messages of history, so we’d have to develop some method of
fetching the chat archive (+attached media) and then
store&publish it somewhere. Not sure what the terms of
use for Slack say about this - we could check.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">-
A lot of the discussion (chat) is in Finnish. Also a lot of
it happens via private messages between two developers and
even though we’ve tried to encourage people to chat on the
public channels sometimes it just does not happen.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">Anyone
that has questions and/or is developing something to Oskari
is welcomed to our Slack. We even planned to automate the
invitations, so that one wouldn’t have to ask one from us.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">For
now I guess the best source for discussions and decisions is
GitHub and the PSC meeting notes. We also planned to make
the PSC meetings happen regularly (e.g. once a month) in the
sake of sharing information & knowledge exchange.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">We’ve
discussed the OSGeo Live issue early last year and decided
that at this point it’s not something we will focus on. Like
Arnulf noted Oskari is a “platform” product and relies
heavily on external data sets so it’s not that well suited
for OSGeo Live.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">About
the question about Roadmap items and external contributors:
Oskari has had external contributors for quite some time,
but obviously here more is better. The most recent
“external” contribution is this <a href="https://github.com/oskariorg/oskari-docs/issues/61" target="_blank">https://github.com/oskariorg/<wbr>oskari-docs/issues/61</a>
- as an example of something that “went through the
process”. I put the word external in quotes because I don’t
know what qualifies as being external? The free-to-join
Oskari Community has now more than 30 organizations and many
of them are using or developing Oskari actively. Last year
the first company (then Dimenteq Ltd now Sitowise Ltd)
started selling Oskari as a service and also Oskari
development and maintenance. This year another company
(Gispo Ltd) started offering crowd-funding facilitating
services for developing Oskari collaboratively - tbh they
are piloting it for now. I really see both of these examples
as very positive development and I think they also secure
the future of Oskari to some extent.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">Obviously
a more broader adoption is something we still strive for.
For a software like Oskari it’s challenging but little by
little we’ve already managed to do it so it’s possible :)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">I
don’t think we’re in any rush for the graduation and this
discussion will be very helpful for us to develop our
process even further. So please do comment back so we know
what kind of steps to take next and how to proceed. My
holidays start today so don’t wonder if I’m not replying for
a while, I’ll get back to work in August.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">Thanks
again for your support!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">BR,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US">Timo<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d" lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Incubator
[<a class="m_1209278531147952682moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:incubator-bounces@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">mailto:incubator-bounces@<wbr>lists.osgeo.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bruce Bannerman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 6. heinäkuuta 2018 0:17<br>
<b>To:</b> Cameron Shorter
<a class="m_1209278531147952682moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:cameron.shorter@gmail.com" target="_blank"><cameron.shorter@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a class="m_1209278531147952682moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Oskari-user@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Oskari-user@lists.osgeo.org</a>; Sanna Jokela
(Gispo) <a class="m_1209278531147952682moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sanna@gispo.fi" target="_blank"><sanna@gispo.fi></a>;
<a class="m_1209278531147952682moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:incubator@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">incubator@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Incubator] Oskari Incubation status<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Arnulf,<span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for your detailed assessment.
...and yes, I did read to the bottom ;-)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would like to see a response to your
questions from Timo, or another representative of the Oskari
community. In particular a response to the issues of open
communities and decision making.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">From what I’ve viewed on the project
website, Oskari has considerable potential. However, good
software is only part of the picture.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Having a good, strong, healthy and active
community that is diverse and uses open processes will help
the project to survive when funding from the major sponsor
ceases.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kind regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bruce<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 6 Jul 2018, at 03:02, Cameron Shorter <<a href="mailto:cameron.shorter@gmail.com" target="_blank">cameron.shorter@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p>Arnulf, to answer your question at the bottom, yes I read
to the bottom, and really appreciate your detailed
assessment.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Based on Arnulf's assessment, it sounds like Sskari
probably has a good codebase, with good work from within
one organisation, but is yet to attract engaged external
developers. This is a great milestone, and worth
acknowledging. But the "unicorn" projects that we look for
in OSGeo incubation are those with a healthy community
from multiple organisations.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>The "extent of collaboration" criteria provides
validation of the quality of the project, and is a very
good indicator of long term sustainability.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">To the
Oskari folks, you might want to read this presentation I
gave a while back on business justifications for backing
collaboration:
<br>
<a href="http://cameronshorter.blogspot.com/2017/11/open-source-pitch-for-your-boss.html" target="_blank">http://cameronshorter.<wbr>blogspot.com/2017/11/open-<wbr>source-pitch-for-your-boss.<wbr>html</a><br>
<br>
Without digging into the details any further, I suspect
Oskari would need to work on attracting co-contributors,
from multiple organisations, and we would likely see
evidence of this happening by seeing archive logs of
collaborative email lists, or slack or IRC or similar.<br>
<br>
Warm regards, Cameron<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 6/7/18 2:11 am, Arnulf Christl
(Metaspatial) wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>Hi Folks, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>this is an update on the Incubation process of Oskari.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><a href="https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Oskari_Incubation_Status" target="_blank">https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/<wbr>Oskari_Incubation_Status</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>As mentor I am still somewhat hesitant to recommend
Oskari for OSGeo Incubation because I cannot find a good
indicator supporting that there is an open community and
communication. Personally I know some of the current
core team and totally trust them to work in the Open
Source way of doing things. But this may not be quite
apparent to anybody not into the project.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Oskari is doing a good job posting news and updates to
the OSGeo user list (<a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/oskari-user/" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/<wbr>pipermail/oskari-user/</a>)
but the list is not really used by users for any kind of
discussion, help or future development. It feels more
like a low volume announce list (which is totally OK, so
please keep it up).
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>How and where is the development being discussed? Who
can join the Oskari Slack channel - or whatever else is
used to have technical and strategic discussions? Are
there archives of discussions and decisions? Do you
manage to do this in English or is it still everything
communicated in Finnish? <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>In a PSC presentation from December 2016 one
bullet-point says that Oskari may become a project on
OSGeo live:
<a href="https://oskariorg.github.io/files/20161220-Oskari_OSGEO_PSC.pdf" target="_blank">https://oskariorg.github.io/<wbr>files/20161220-Oskari_OSGEO_<wbr>PSC.pdf.
<br>
</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Actually, Incubation is not a requirement, so please
feel free to approach the OSGeo Live team to find out
more.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>In the Roadmap document (which in my opinion is
actually ery good) at: <a href="https://github.com/oskariorg/oskari-docs/wiki/Roadmap-process" target="_blank">
https://github.com/oskariorg/<wbr>oskari-docs/wiki/Roadmap-<wbr>process</a> you
say that: <u></u>
<u></u></p>
<p><i>"After communicating with Oskari community the
roadmap items enter Active stage [...]".
</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Can you give us an example of where and how this has
happened? <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>There are some updates on GitHub issues but it appears
to be mostly internal team members (which is totally OK,
is this where the collaborative aspect of the future
development takes place?
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><a href="https://github.com/oskariorg/oskari-docs/labels/roadmap" target="_blank">https://github.com/oskariorg/<wbr>oskari-docs/labels/roadmap</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Regarding Code Copyright Review you state that: <u></u><u></u></p>
<p><i>All code has been developed by the registered
developers listed on github who have signed the CLA.
All external libraries have project compatible
licenses. The project has been started as a regular
Open Source project following the guidelines as set
out by OSGeo. A file-per-file code review was
therefore deemed superfluous. </i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>As mentor I can confirm that this is correct and
satisfies OSGeo's requirements (and yes, I did some
quick checks on random code files but due to the well
organized origin of the project did not go through all
code like we had to in the GRASS project... :-).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>In the last PSC meeting in December 2017 a decision was
taken to schedule the next meeting "as needed".
<u></u><u></u></p>
<h2 id="m_1209278531147952682meetingsactivity"><i>Meetings/activity</i><u></u><u></u></h2>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal">
<i>[...]</i><u></u><u></u></li>
<li class="MsoNormal">
<i>future meetings schedule: continue with “as needed”
(no need for a fixed schedule)</i><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<p>Summarizing the current status: We discussed some of
the above topics before and it is not a requirement for
OSGeo Incubation to have active mailing lists and so on.
But it is a requirement to have an open process and
ideally also a somewhat growing user community.
Obviously due its character as a complex portal platform
Oskari is not a software that will have millions of
downloads but a little broader adoption would be nice to
see.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>You also say: <u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal">
<i>Slack/Mailinglist can be used more actively to
discuss any issues/voting</i><u></u><u></u></li>
</ul>
<p>If you are not using the Slack channel (which
unfortunately is not open), where is the communication
taking place?
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>The PSC meeting notes from December 2017 has a list of
current installations / users / contributions. This is
good to see. Has there been any additions, changes over
the past half year?
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Even if you can not produce evidence for any or all of
the above issues I will be happy to recommend Oskari for
Incubation if you believe that this will help the
project. Then it will be up to the Incubation committee
to decide whether we can recommend graduation to the
OSGeo Board of Directors. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>We will have to expect some discussion on the
Incubation list on the above topics and this is not bad
but a sign of a healthy process.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<h3>Internal note to the Incubation committee <u></u><u></u></h3>
<p>IF you ever made it down to this line and maybe even
checked some of the referenced documents, please be so
kind as to acknowledge this on the mailing list so that
we can help Oskari move on.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>It may also be a good idea to go back to the Incubation
process and check whether it should be revised for
certain aspects (especially requirement on mailing lists
/ alternatives like Slack).
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>Anything else you need, let me know. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>Thank you, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Arnulf<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Am 2018-06-25 um 17:05 schrieb
Aarnio Timo (MML):<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Incubator-list!<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We’d like to
inquire about the incubation status of Oskari. What
are the next steps should be in the incubation
process? In our end we’ve done everything we’ve
realized that we have to do. But is there something
still wanted from us? Or is the process in the OSGeo
end now? If so, what are the steps there and is
there possibly any estimate when we can think about
graduating?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kind regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Timo
Aarnio</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Incubator mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Incubator@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Incubator@lists.osgeo.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/incubator</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<pre>-- <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Spatially enabling your business<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="http://metaspatial.net" target="_blank">http://metaspatial.net</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Incubator mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Incubator@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Incubator@lists.osgeo.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/incubator</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<pre>-- <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Cameron Shorter<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Technology Demystifier<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Open Technologies and Geospatial Consultant<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>M +61 (0) 419 142 254<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Incubator mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Incubator@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Incubator@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/incubator</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="m_1209278531147952682moz-signature" cols="72">--
Cameron Shorter
Technology Demystifier
Open Technologies and Geospatial Consultant
M +61 (0) 419 142 254</pre>
</div></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Incubator mailing list<br>
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<a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/incubator</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">Landon<div>"Homemade cookies. Mmmmmmmmmmm!"<br><div><p>Web: <a href="http://www.landonblake.com" target="_blank">www.landonblake.com</a></p>
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