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Hi Bruce,<br>
<br>
thank you for clarifying this. I enjoy amicable communication, even
and in particular in cases of mutually different views. Glad that we
meet on these grounds!<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
Peter<br>
<br>
<br>
I'll be happy <br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 24.09.21 12:24, Bruce Bannerman
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:67A90935-7F95-410A-A11E-D82178DFBD89@gmail.com">
Hello again Peter,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I have no intention of trying to denegrate Rasdaman.
I apologise if that is how you interpret my comments.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Having spent 5 years as an OSGeo Mentor within your
project, I developed a deep respect for your project, your team
and collective capabilities.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">My intent here is to try and avoid a similar
undesirable outcome again in the future.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If we'd had a more clearly defined policy on the
type of project that we are willing to support at graduation, I
believe that we could have avoided a lot of angst with Rasdaman
for OSGeo and for the Rasdaman project team.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Kind regards,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Bruce</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 24 Sep 2021, at 17:42, Peter Baumann <<a href="mailto:p.baumann@jacobs-university.de" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">p.baumann@jacobs-university.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class=""> folks, be careful.<br class="">
<br class="">
OSGeo, in its limited view on the world, is again
starting getting derogative about rasdaman. <br class="">
<br class="">
Please be careful about your choice of words in the
context of rasdaman - probably we all do not want to
open this discussion again.<br class="">
<br class="">
-Peter<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 24.09.21 06:43, Bruce
Bannerman wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:563463DE-C620-4D7B-91C8-B1A02C366E7C@gmail.com" class=""> Regarding OSI Licenses, I understand this
Jody.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">However this position does not cater for
undesirable proprietary dual license aspects.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Again the Rasdaman example. From memory,
at the time of the incubation vote, this product was
subject to dual licensing, the open source variant
using approved OSI licences. However the open source
version was severely constrained, particularly from
aspects that improved product performance.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Consequently, at the time of the
incubation vote, one member of the Incubation
Committee described the open source variant as
“crippleware”.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Now I don’t want to make this about one
product.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I’d like to see us have a clear position
to avoid such problems in the future. I don’t think
that we can just say that we don’t accept the
Benevelent Dictator model and that solves all
problems.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I also don’t want to see us chase away
involvement in projects and project sponsorship by
proprietary organisations. This would be foolish.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I have a similar view on CLAs. If used
appropriately, they can protect a codebase and make
it easier to manage IP arrangements should it become
necessary. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">But I also understand that they can be
abused with undesirable outcomes for an open source
community. There are many examples of these that we
can all recall quite easily. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Kind regards,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Bruce</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 24 Sep 2021, at 02:37, Jody
Garnett <<a href="mailto:jody.garnett@gmail.com" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">jody.garnett@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Bruce:
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We presently follow the OSI
approved list, much easier to follow then
to manage our own criteria.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">However this discussion
appears to be around governance and
control; and I think we are very clear on
these topics. Even during the Rasdaman
discussion we were very clear that the
benevolent dictator model did not meet our
goals for open governance. It was
frustrating this the discussion took so
long: benevolent dictator is of course a
valid model, it is just not one that
matches our ideals.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">OSGeo does support (and
sometimes require) CLAs providing
asymmetrical rights on code bases such as
GeoTools and GeoServer (<a href="https://www.osgeo.org/about/licenses/" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.osgeo.org/about/licenses/</a>).
This increased permissions for the PSC has
allowed these committees to donate fixes
to more permissive projects such as
GeoServer (GPL with EPL exception) -->
GeoTools (LGPL); or GeoTools (LGPL) to JTS
(BSD). The use of CLA to establish
asymmetrical rights has a community
building use in this respect; however the
same tool is used to enable some of the
harmful (to the open community) practices
being remarked on.</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It is a shame folks like
Elasticsearch and MapBox abandoning open
source, as I really appreciate it as a
way to produce excellent software and
manage risk across a wide range of
stakeholders. In many cases the
justifications feel self imposed. If an
organization is not seeing enough
contributions to justify continuing a
project as open source, I can point to
an organization that did not setup equal
governance to promote contributions
between equals.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Personally I like
free-software, and open-source software
held by a vendor neutral organization
(such as OSGeo). Everything else seems a
bit risky.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">OSGeo does not provide such
a hard line, but by stressing projects
need to be willing for others to take
part in governance (no benevolent
dictator model) I believe the foundation
is clear in what kind of project we
support. There is a reason projects such
as MapBoxGL or Cesium did not apply to
be part of OSGeo after all.</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">--</div>
<div class="">Jody Garnett</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 22
Sept 2021 at 17:31, Bruce Bannerman <<a href="mailto:bruce.bannerman.osgeo@gmail.com" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">bruce.bannerman.osgeo@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Hi Jody,</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">These thoughts
extend on your ‘there can be only one’
comment below.</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">I think that we
in the Incubation Committee and our
potential future incubating projects
would benefit from our better defining
what type of open source project we
will support.</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">Greg Troxel
contributed valuable insight into a
discussion that we were having in the
OSGeo Standards list on the proposed
OGC/OSGeo MOU. See [1] for context.</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">With apologies
to Greg for my paraphrasing, I
understand Greg’s arguments to
strongly differentiate between open
source projects that are subject to
proprietary relicensing and those that
are not. </div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">Greg contributed
the blog link at [2] as part of the
discussion. This is an insightful
read.</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">If we had had a
clear policy on the type of open
source project that we are willing to
support during the unfortunate
situation with the Rasdaman Incubation
vote, we could have avoided a lot of
the angst and miscommunication that
occurred on both sides.</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">So before we
progress too much further on the
‘Platforms’ discussion, I think that
it would be beneficial to resolve the
OSGeo Incubation supported open source
model issue definitively. I believe
that this will make it much easier to
progress the platforms discussion, and
future incubations.</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">While I have
concerns over the interpretation of
what a Contributions Licence is, I
believe that the links at [1] and
[2] are a good starting point to get
this sorted out.</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">Kind regards,</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">Bruce</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">[1] <a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/standards/2021-September/001274.html" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/standards/2021-September/001274.html</a></div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">[2] <a href="https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2020/jan/06/copyleft-equality/" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2020/jan/06/copyleft-equality/</a> </div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On 17
Sep 2021, at 01:59, Jody Garnett
<<a href="mailto:jody.garnett@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">jody.garnett@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="auto" class="">It is kind
of like the “highlander-principle”
if the phrase “there can be only
one” applies … you are not open
source.</div>
<div dir="auto" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="auto" class="">Jody</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep
15, 2021 at 6:38 PM Jody
Garnett <<a href="mailto:jody.garnett@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">jody.garnett@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">There is a
useful definition of a
framework (quite
technical) here <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_framework" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_framework</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">Software
frameworks have these
distinguishing features
that separate them from
libraries or normal user
applications: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_framework" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_framework</a>
<ul class="">
<li class="">inversion
of control - In a
framework, unlike in
libraries or normal
user applications, the
overall program's flow
of control is not
dictated by the
caller, but by the
framework.[1]</li>
</ul>
<ul class="">
<li class="">default
behavior - A framework
has a default
behavior. This default
behavior must actually
be some useful
behavior and not a
series of no-ops.</li>
</ul>
<ul class="">
<li class="">extensibility
- A framework can be
extended by the user
usually by selective
overriding or
specialized by user
code providing
specific
functionality.</li>
</ul>
<ul class="">
<li class="">non-modifiable
framework code - The
framework code, in
general, is not
allowed to be
modified. Users can
extend the framework,
but not modify its
code.</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
<div class="">While all of
that is technically true
it is perhaps a bit too
detailed for our purpose.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The core
distinction is earlier in
the thread:</div>
<div class="">- Does your
open source code support a
single website? Or is is
setup for use by others?</div>
<div class="">- Are you
building a community
around services? This is a
user community ...</div>
<div class="">- Are you
building a community
around software? This is
still a user community ...</div>
<div class="">- Are you
building a community
around software where the
software source code is
available to look at? This
is still a user community
... looking at you
Elasticsearch</div>
<div class="">- Are you
building a community
around software with
shared responsibility and
risk (enabled by a license
to view *and change*
source code)? This is a
free or open-source
community (depending on
which license chosen by
the group)</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">--<br class="">
Jody Garnett<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri,
3 Sept 2021 at 18:32,
Bruce Bannerman <<a href="mailto:bruce.bannerman.osgeo@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">bruce.bannerman.osgeo@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div dir="auto" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Jody,</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">I
don’t expect anything
constructive from the
AGM. People won’t have
time to reflect.</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">…now
what is a ‘Framework’?</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">I
suggest that we define
what we support and
take it from there. We
can always adjust, if
required.</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">Kind
regards,</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="">Bruce</div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On
4 Sep 2021, at
05:27, Jody Garnett
<<a href="mailto:jody.garnett@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">jody.garnett@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Thanks
Bruce,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I
did not get
anything useful
from the board;
perhaps it is a
subject for the
AGM.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">For
now the way
forward seems to
be to recast the
platform as a
framework and
ensure the
resulting
software stack
and be picked up
and run
independently
(with a
quickstart or
similar).</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">--</div>
<div class="">Jody
Garnett</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
Wed, 14 Jul 2021
at 21:57, Bruce
Bannerman <<a href="mailto:bruce.bannerman.osgeo@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">bruce.bannerman.osgeo@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class="">Thanks
Jody,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Personally:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<ul class="">
<li class="">I
don’t mind a
situation
where an open
source project
attempts to
develop and
maintain
software that
is intended to
integrate a
number of
software
components
into a working
product which
could perhaps
be called a
platform.</li>
</ul>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<ul class="">
<li class="">I
can see many
situations
where the
‘platform’
might deploy
both
components and
the platform’s
specific
customisations
concurrently.</li>
</ul>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<ul class="">
<li class="">However,
I would not
support a
situation
where that
product (or
platform) can
only be
implemented
once. I’d
prefer that it
can be
implemented
many times by
different
organisations.</li>
</ul>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<ul class="">
<li class="">While
such a
‘platform’
project would
look after its
own
"integration
related
software", I’d
see that the
individual
components
would be
subject to
their own open
source project
community’s
governance
practices.</li>
</ul>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<ul class="">
<li class="">This
could get
quite messy,
when the
integration
related
software is
actually a
customisation
of an existing
software
component with
its own open
source
community
already in
existence.
This would
require
careful and
close
collaboration
between both
communities…</li>
</ul>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">That
will do for
now, let’s see
what others
think.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Kind
regards,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Bruce</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On
15 Jul 2021,
at 01:21, Jody
Garnett <<a href="mailto:jody.garnett@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">jody.garnett@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">It is
indeed
overloaded,
and no I
cannot
clarify as the
applicants
that are
coming in are
slightly
different from
each other.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Turn-key
portals such
as <a href="https://www.osgeo.org/choose-a-project/information-technology/portal/" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.osgeo.org/choose-a-project/information-technology/portal/</a>
these showcase
a range of
projects. Some
like geomoose
are presented
as frameworks,
others
like GC2/Vidi
are presented
as a platform.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I
would be
cautious about
an open source
project that
just supports
a single
website (like <a href="http://github.com/mapstory" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">http://github.com/mapstory</a>),
but perhaps
that is my own
bias? There is
an advantage
to users of a
platform being
able to review
the code
responsible
for the
service they
are using. But
this
represents new
ground for
OSGeo,
hence the
discussion.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I
also brought
this
discussion to
the osgeo
board list; so
we do not need
to decide on
our own.</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">--</div>
<div class="">Jody
Garnett</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 13 Jul 2021 at 18:56, Bruce Bannerman <<a href="mailto:bruce.bannerman.osgeo@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">bruce.bannerman.osgeo@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">Hi
Jody,<br class="">
<br class="">
The concept of
a platform is
quite
overloaded and
means
different
things to
different
people.<br class="">
<br class="">
Can you please
clarify what
you mean by
‘platform’?<br class="">
<br class="">
Kind regards,<br class="">
<br class="">
Bruce<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
> On 12 Jul
2021, at
18:30, Jody
Garnett <<a href="mailto:jody.garnett@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">jody.garnett@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
> <br class="">
>
Discussion
topic for
incubation
committee:<br class="">
> <br class="">
> We are
getting
applications
from platforms
seeking to
join OSGeo.<br class="">
> <br class="">
> What do
you think?<br class="">
> --<br class="">
> Jody
Garnett<br class="">
>
_______________________________________________<br class="">
> Incubator
mailing list<br class="">
> <a href="mailto:Incubator@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">Incubator@lists.osgeo.org</a><br class="">
> <a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator</a><br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
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<div class="">Jody Garnett</div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="80">--
Dr. Peter Baumann
- Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann</a>
mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:p.baumann@jacobs-university.de" moz-do-not-send="true">p.baumann@jacobs-university.de</a>
tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
- Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://rasdaman.com/" moz-do-not-send="true">https://rasdaman.com</a>, mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:baumann@rasdaman.com" moz-do-not-send="true">baumann@rasdaman.com</a>
tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
"Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)
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_______________________________________________<br class="">
Incubator mailing list<br class="">
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="80">--
Dr. Peter Baumann
- Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann">https://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann</a>
mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:p.baumann@jacobs-university.de">p.baumann@jacobs-university.de</a>
tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
- Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://rasdaman.com">https://rasdaman.com</a>, mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:baumann@rasdaman.com">baumann@rasdaman.com</a>
tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
"Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)
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