Benoit,<br><br>There's a big community around java in the geospatial world which cannot be ignored easily. I do also think that .NET rocks, but java is more widely used at the moment. I think the real benefit of this change would be to establish a feasible object model (based on the MapServer implementation and features) which could easily transformed to a compatible java or .NET classes to provide compatible implementations and cover the widest audience.<br>
<br><br>Best regards,<br><br>Tamas<br><br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2009/4/2 Benoit Andrieu <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bea@ixsea.com">bea@ixsea.com</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Isn't Java already dead ??<br>
Everybody knows that .NET is taking a nice advantage on Java...<br>
I think the future is in .NET Framework 4.0 and its PPL (Parallel Pattern Library) !<br>
.NET supports everything that Java does and it does better. Some have seen a performance benefice up to 10x with C# over Java !!<br>
I say we take the money, make a port of Mapserver to C#/MC++ 4.0 and provide a wrapper in Java to make everybody happy.<br>
With Mono working on Linux, we won't have any problems running the Mapserver new generation on several platforms !!<br>
<br>
By the way, isn't Microsoft using Mapserver for their VirtualEarth backend ?? We could even ask for a sponsorship !!!<br>
<br>
Don't take the way of the already elder Java and go on with the ever shining .NET !<br>
<br>
Who's in ?<br>
<br>
________________________________________________<br>
"All cats love fish but hate to get their paws wet."<br>
<br>
> -----Message reçu-----<br>
> De: Paul Ramsey <<a href="mailto:pramsey@opengeo.org">pramsey@opengeo.org</a>><br>
> À: "Kralidis,Tom [Ontario]" <<a href="mailto:Tom.Kralidis@ec.gc.ca">Tom.Kralidis@ec.gc.ca</a>><br>
> Cc: <a href="mailto:mapserver-dev@lists.osgeo.org">mapserver-dev@lists.osgeo.org</a>, Daniel Morissette <<a href="mailto:dmorissette@mapgears.com">dmorissette@mapgears.com</a>><br>
> Date: 01/04/2009 22:53<br>
> Objet: Re: [mapserver-dev] FW: MapServer enhancements/refactoring project<br>
<div class="im">><br>
> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Kralidis,Tom [Ontario]<br>
> <<a href="mailto:Tom.Kralidis@ec.gc.ca">Tom.Kralidis@ec.gc.ca</a>> wrote:<br>
> >> Daniel Morissette<br>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, 01 April 2009 16:20<br>
> >> Subject: Re: [mapserver-dev] FW: MapServer<br>
> >> enhancements/refactoring project<br>
> >><br>
</div><div class="im">> >> Then the MapServer Enterprise gets its real meaning!<br>
> >> Hoping that you'll see the light soon.<br>
> ><br>
</div><div class="im">> > I think this would call for a complete analysis of cost/return on<br>
> > investment on a change like this. And what the problems are (in detail)<br>
> > that are driving this proposal.<br>
><br>
> Sometimes it's not problems that drive things, it's plain old money. I<br>
> said it before, and I'll say it again (because I really like saying<br>
> it): rebuilding Mapserver in Java is like tearing down Notre Dame and<br>
> rebuilding it in Jello. By extension, wrapping the Mapserver core in<br>
> Java is like wrapping Notre Dame in Jello.<br>
><br>
> Re-factoring only leads to tears. Porting leads to suicide pacts.<br>
> Let's not go there.<br>
><br>
> P<br>
><br>
><br>
> ><br>
> > ..Tom<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
</div><div><div></div><div class="h5">> >> Daniel<br>
> >><br>
> >> Kralidis,Tom [Ontario] wrote:<br>
> >> > -dev: see thread below. I have no choice but to bring in -dev here.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Daniel: you have got to be kidding me.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Coming from a non-Java environment, this would represent a major<br>
> >> > showstopper and end of use (and commitment) to MapServer<br>
> >> from myself<br>
> >> > and over 100 install bases. A change as drastic as this<br>
> >> will no doubt<br>
> >> > crush confidence in foss4g to those I have been working<br>
> >> with so hard<br>
> >> > to build MapServer and foss4g.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > For the last 10 years.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Thanks a lot!<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Regardless, I think this thread is best discussed with the<br>
> >> community<br>
> >> > who should be involved in this discussion.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > ..Tom<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > -----Original Message-----<br>
> >> > From: Frank Warmerdam [mailto:<a href="mailto:warmerdam@pobox.com">warmerdam@pobox.com</a>]<br>
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, 01 April 2009 15:37<br>
> >> > To: Daniel Morissette<br>
> >> > Cc: Paul Ramsey; thomas bonfort; <a href="mailto:jmckenna@gatewaygeomatics.com">jmckenna@gatewaygeomatics.com</a>;<br>
> >> > <a href="mailto:yassefa@dmsolutions.ca">yassefa@dmsolutions.ca</a>; Kralidis,Tom [Ontario]; <a href="mailto:hobu.inc@gmail.com">hobu.inc@gmail.com</a>;<br>
> >> > <a href="mailto:pnaciona@gmail.com">pnaciona@gmail.com</a>; <a href="mailto:szekerest@gmail.com">szekerest@gmail.com</a>;<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:umberto.nicoletti@gmail.com">umberto.nicoletti@gmail.com</a>;<br>
> >> > <a href="mailto:hobu@hobu.net">hobu@hobu.net</a>; <a href="mailto:woodbri@swoodbridge.com">woodbri@swoodbridge.com</a><br>
> >> > Subject: Re: MapServer enhancements/refactoring project<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Daniel,<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > It's funny that you mention this. I recently had an expression of<br>
> >> > interest from a client to rewrite GDAL (but not OGR yet)<br>
> >> completely in<br>
> >> > Java. My first reaction was to take a pass but such an<br>
> >> effort would<br>
> >> > be a good match with a MapServer rewrite in Java. If my<br>
> >> client will<br>
> >> > pay for the GDAL rewrite into Java, would you be able to<br>
> >> set aside a<br>
> >> > man-year or so of funding for me to also rewrite OGR in Java?<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Luckily we can use the GeoTools coordinate system implementation in<br>
> >> > place of PROJ.4, so we shouldn't need to rewrite all of that.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > This level of funded work should take me comfortably through the<br>
> >> > economic meltdown!<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > PS. Paul, tell us what you really think!<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Paul Ramsey wrote:<br>
> >> >> I've head enough great potential to last a lifetime. I'll<br>
> >> stick with<br>
> >> >> things that actually work. Re-writing Mapserver in Java is like<br>
> >> >> tearing down Notre Dame and re-building it in Jello. You<br>
> >> and the rest<br>
> >> >> of the Jello-heads stay away from my church.<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >> P.<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >> On Apr 1, 2009, at 12:10 PM, Daniel Morissette wrote:<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >>> Paul Ramsey wrote:<br>
> >> >>>> Daniel,<br>
> >> >>>> That's quite a big change you're proposing. Not that I have<br>
> >> >>>> anything<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> >>>> against Java per se or XML (well, maybe I have something against<br>
> >> >>>> XML) but I don't want to see either taking over the Mapserver<br>
> >> >>>> project, money or no money. If it's not written in<br>
> >> >>>> high-performance,<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> >>>> highly-painful C I don't want any part of it! Perhaps<br>
> >> you ate some<br>
> >> >>>> bad > poutine, because the whole idea is off the rocker.<br>
> >> >>> C'mon Paul... of all people I would have thought that you<br>
> >> would have<br>
> >> >>> been the first person to see the great potential in this move!<br>
> >> >>><br>
> >> >>> As I wrote before, you pick your camp, but others have made the<br>
> >> >>> right<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> >>> decision already.<br>
> >> >>><br>
> >> >>> Daniel<br>
> >> >>><br>
> >> >>><br>
> >> >>> Daniel Morissette wrote:<br>
> >> >>>> The baby has grown, it's an adult now, and getting quite<br>
> >> mature, so<br>
> >> >>>> I wouldn't call that selling the baby but actually letting it<br>
> >> >>>> explore new grounds.<br>
> >> >>>> Think of it this way: the power and simplicity of<br>
> >> MapServer's core<br>
> >> >>>> algorithms combined with the modern architecture of the Java<br>
> >> >>>> language and development tools.<br>
> >> >>>> Isn't it about time that we move away from the command-line<br>
> >> >>>> debuggers and malloc's? It's the 21st century guys...<br>
> >> let the IDE<br>
> >> >>>> and the garbage collector do it all for you. It's been proven<br>
> >> >>>> several times that the performance is no longer an issue<br>
> >> with Java<br>
> >> >>>> now so why stick with an old language from the 70's when<br>
> >> we can do<br>
> >> >>>> 10 times as much with a modern toolkit?<br>
> >> >>>> We'll probably go ahead whether you're on board or not<br>
> >> (I got one<br>
> >> >>>> private reply from a MapServer dev who says he's on<br>
> >> board already),<br>
> >> >>>> so you choose your camp... continue to pull your hair<br>
> >> with the old<br>
> >> >>>> stuff or have fun taking the MapServer name to the next<br>
> >> level with<br>
> >> >>>> a<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> >>>> modern architecture.<br>
> >> >>>> Daniel<br>
> >> >>>> thomas bonfort wrote:<br>
> >> >>>>> Daniel,<br>
> >> >>>>><br>
> >> >>>>> Seeing you are the "mother of MapServer" I would have<br>
> >> hoped that<br>
> >> >>>>> you were not so keen in selling your baby to the first<br>
> >> >>>>> deep-pocketed java crackhead, even if I now that times<br>
> >> are rough<br>
> >> >>>>> right now and that it's probably more difficult to turn down an<br>
> >> >>>>> offer that will keep you fed for a confortable amount of time.<br>
> >> >>>>><br>
> >> >>>>> I would also have preferred that my first vote as a PSC<br>
> >> member was<br>
> >> >>>>> not a veto, as I cannot imagine myself going the java way with<br>
> >> > mapserver.<br>
> >> >>>>> regards,<br>
> >> >>>>><br>
> >> >>>>> thomas<br>
> >> >>>>><br>
> >> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 20:14, Daniel Morissette<br>
> >> >>>>> <<a href="mailto:dmorissette@mapgears.com">dmorissette@mapgears.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> >> >>>>>> Guys,<br>
> >> >>>>>><br>
> >> >>>>>> I've been contacted by a potential client who would be<br>
> >> willing to<br>
> >> >>>>>> fund a complete refactoring of MapServer. It seems<br>
> >> that they got<br>
> >> >>>>>> wind of our discussions at the TO Code Sprint and<br>
> >> would like to<br>
> >> >>>>>> help with some of that, more specifically:<br>
> >> >>>>>> - XML mapfiles<br>
> >> >>>>>> - performance work driven in part by GeoServer which<br>
> >> is getting<br>
> >> >>>>>> very close to MapServer in both performance and map rendering<br>
> >> >>>>>> quality<br>
> >> >>>>>> - rendering plugin architecture that Thomas is working on<br>
> >> >>>>>> - WFS-T support<br>
> >> >>>>>><br>
> >> >>>>>> They've got enough budget to get about 20 devs working on this<br>
> >> >>>>>> for<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> >>>>>> a year, but there are two big issues in my mind: they have a<br>
> >> >>>>>> tight<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> >>>>>> deadline, they need this done within a year, and they are<br>
> >> >>>>>> currently a Java shop so they require that we deliver a Java<br>
> >> >>>>>> solution (I know, I know). They considered GeoServer<br>
> >> but they got<br>
> >> >>>>>> turned down by the guys at OpenGeo who would not let<br>
> >> them get the<br>
> >> >>>>>> architectural changes they wanted for any amount of money, so<br>
> >> >>>>>> they<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> >>>>>> figured they might have more luck with us. Oh, there is a 3rd<br>
> >> >>>>>> thing:<br>
> >> >>>>>> they would require that the code be closed for at least a year<br>
> >> >>>>>> after the final deliverable before they let us release<br>
> >> anything<br>
> >> >>>>>> publicly...<br>
> >> >>>>>> something<br>
> >> >>>>>> related to their own internal policies and business<br>
> >> plan... not<br>
> >> >>>>>> ideal but at least in the end the code should be opened up.<br>
> >> >>>>>><br>
> >> >>>>>> I'm not too keen on a switch to Java, but it seems that the<br>
> >> >>>>>> performance is no longer an issue as the GeoServer guys have<br>
> >> >>>>>> demonstrated with their benchmarks, and this would<br>
> >> solve many of<br>
> >> >>>>>> our issues dealing with XML and Web Services (isn't<br>
> >> XML the way<br>
> >> >>>>>> of<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> >>>>>> the future anyway?). If the money is there it's hard<br>
> >> to turn it<br>
> >> >>>>>> down, and it could be fun to take over GeoServer on its own<br>
> >> >>>>>> ground... Java!<br>
> >> >>>>>><br>
> >> >>>>>> So far I have 4 Java dev's on board. I am writing this<br>
> >> to you to<br>
> >> >>>>>> seek an expression of interest since I'd need at least another<br>
> >> >>>>>> 4-5<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> >>>>>> experienced MapServer devs to undertake this project.<br>
> >> >>>>>><br>
> >> >>>>>> Who's interested?<br>
> >> >>>>>><br>
> >> >>>>>> Daniel<br>
> >> >>>>>><br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >> --<br>
> >> >> Paul Ramsey<br>
> >> >> <a href="mailto:pramsey@cleverelephant.ca">pramsey@cleverelephant.ca</a><br>
> >> >> +1 250 885 0632<br>
> >> >><br>
> >> >><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> ><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> --<br>
> >> Daniel Morissette<br>
> >> <a href="http://www.mapgears.com/" target="_blank">http://www.mapgears.com/</a><br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
</div></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">> >> mapserver-dev mailing list<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:mapserver-dev@lists.osgeo.org">mapserver-dev@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
> >> <a href="http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/mapserver-dev" target="_blank">http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/mapserver-dev</a><br>
> >><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > mapserver-dev mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:mapserver-dev@lists.osgeo.org">mapserver-dev@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
> > <a href="http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/mapserver-dev" target="_blank">http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/mapserver-dev</a><br>
> ><br>
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