Google Maps as Mapserver Layer

Fri Mar 2 11:41:36 EST 2007

On 3/2/07, Ed McNierney <ed at topozone.com> wrote:
> Puneet -
>
> Why is Google Earth so many orders of magnitude more popular than, say,
> NASA WorldWind, (an open source product BTW)?  It's not the "collection
> of extremely smart programmers" that Google purchased with Keyhole -
> Google Earth is wildly more popular than Keyhole was!  It's because of
> the market visibility Google brought, not the technical advancement.

As far as I can see, Worldwind works only on Windows. Google Earth
works on Windows, Linux, and on my Mac.

I have absolutely no interest in Worldwind because I can't use it.
Just for that reason GE is a better product even if it may or may not
do as much as Worldwind, and just for that reason Google has achieved
a higher technical advancement than Worldwind has, NASA
notwithstanding. In fact, if I recall correctly, Keyhole did not work
on Macs and Linux, and Google made it do so. Kudos to them.

But, this conversation has drifted far from where it started. The
original issue was whether or not Arkansas giving the data away to
Google somehow was making that data unavailable to others. The reality
is that it is not. The data are still available at exactly the same
level of accessibility as they were before they were shared with
Google. That accessibility is not good, but that is the problem of the
States. They have to solve that, and we can educate them on how to do
that.

>
> There's nothing at all wrong with that, of course, but let's not confuse
> mass-market exposure and popularization with technical achievement.  In
> a small way I suppose I could claim to have done the same thing for
> popularizing USGS topographic maps by making them available to anyone on
> the Web.  It did require a bit of technical innovation, but the
> popularity, appeal, and usage of an application is usually a very poor
> indicator of the technical merit or innovation involved.
>
>         - Ed
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: P Kishor [mailto:punk.kish at gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 12:31 AM
> To: Ed McNierney
> Cc: MAPSERVER-USERS at lists.umn.edu
> Subject: Re: [UMN_MAPSERVER-USERS] Google Maps as Mapserver Layer
>
> On 3/1/07, Ed McNierney <ed at topozone.com> wrote:
> > Puneet -
> >
> > The chief difficulty is when cash-strapped state and local governments
>
> > eagerly provide data to Google (much as was done with Microsoft
> > TerraServer) and then think they've "solved the problem" because "look
>
> > how everyone can get it in Google Earth!".  That can make it hard to
> > get funding for a state GIS program to, for example, properly set up
> > and operate a WMS service for access to the same data - the
> > budget-cutter wonder why they should pay for something they "already
> have for free".
> > There's no problem with states providing data to any private firm.
> > The problem is when the providing organization misunderstands what it
> > has accomplished.
>
> Ed, I totally agree with you. My only concern is that we have to be
> cautious as to what problem we focus on and try to solve. As you note
> above, this is not Google's fault. They are doing what any law-abiding
> business will do to maximize its raison d'etre. If anyone's it is very
> much the fault of the States.
>
> But, let's also look at it from the State's point of view. They are cash
> strapped and they can't cook up the resources to make the data easily
> available to everyone. Google comes by and offers them a solution, for
> free. They sell their soul (figuratively... before anyone pounces on me
> for saying that ;-), and they reap some positive and some negative. In
> their position, I probably would do the same unless I could be shown
> better alternatives. C'est la vie.
>
> In my world-view, it is not an "open source" vs. "proprietary" fight.
> I very much see a coexistence of both. I do believe strongly in open
> access to intellectual property collected with public funds which, in
> this case, happens to be orthos. As you mention below, some are
> beginning to learn, and that is where we come in. We give them
> reasonable, level-headed solutions that can demonstrate working together
> with a multitude of technologies and choices while ensuring that
> everyone gets a fair crack at what belong to everyone.
>
> Google Earth and Maps are "cool tools" not because Google made them, but
> simply because they indeed are cool. I do not know of any mapping site
> or application that so quickly, easily, and impressively soaked into
> public consciousness as Google's apps did. And not just with
> Slashdot-reading geeks, but even with normal ma and pa. Google just
> happens to have a collection of extremely smart programmers who also
> created extremely usable tools that popularized mapping. What ESRI, or
> even Mapquest and Vicinity, etc., couldn't achieve in years, even
> decades, Google did in such a short time that it truly is breathtaking.
> Hats off to them. And, the fact is, they could have kept it all to
> themselves, but no, they opened it. This not only enriched the user
> experience around their own tools, but also forced other companies and
> organizations to open up and learn from them. Our own open source tools
> learned from them... apps like Ka-map and Open Layers probably owe a lot
> of inspiration to Google apps.
>
> Anyway, enough on this. Thanks for listening.
>
>
>
> >
> > The USGS learned a few lessons in the TerraServer experience; I expect
>
> > other organizations are simply beginning the process of re-learning
> > some of those lessons all over again.
> >
> >         - Ed
> >
> > Ed McNierney
> > President and Chief Mapmaker
> > TopoZone.com / Maps a la carte, Inc.
> > 73 Princeton Street, Suite 305
> > North Chelmsford, MA  01863
> > Phone: +1 (978) 251-4242
> > Fax: +1 (978) 251-1396
> > ed at topozone.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: UMN MapServer Users List [mailto:MAPSERVER-USERS at LISTS.UMN.EDU]
> > On Behalf Of P Kishor
> > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 5:35 PM
> > To: MAPSERVER-USERS at LISTS.UMN.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [UMN_MAPSERVER-USERS] Google Maps as Mapserver Layer
> >
> > this is getting quite OT for MapServer, but what the heck --
> >
> > On 3/1/07, percy <percyd at pdx.edu> wrote:
> > > I have been told directly by colleagues at both the Pennsylvania and
>
> > > Indiana geological surveys about "giving away" the data. Google
> > > seems to have feelers out for whenever new data are acquired by
> > > state
> > agencies...
> > >
> > > I agree, it's not sinister! But it would be nice to have access to
> > > those tiles :-)
> >
> > but, you do have access to the data. I just checked the Arkansas site
> > that Paul provided below, and besides a bunch of innocuous factual
> > errors, they clearly point to the repository where all that data are
> > still available for anyone to use. Of course, the linked site
> > <http://www.rgis.cast.uark.edu/> is non-functional, so I guess I am
> > better off using Google Maps ;-)
> >
> > Think of it this way... the US has a long history of offering publicly
>
> > collected data to anyone for no or minimal cost, and that anyone has
> > the freedom to do anything they want to with that data, including
> > selling it back to the US! I, for one, am very happy of this policy.
> >
> > And, so are the mapping companies, for this is what they have made
> > their empires out of. The nice thing with Google is, they are giving
> > it back, just doing so on their own terms. Given that they are not
> > charging anything for it, at least I can live with those terms. If I
> > don't like those terms, the original data, the one that Google took,
> > are still there for me to take.
> >
> > I see absolutely no problem with this. If there is any, I would love
> > to be educated.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Paul Ramsey wrote:
> > > > Puneet,
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, don't have any particular details, just lots of anecdotal
> > > > reports of public agencies giving their data to Google in order to
>
> > > > achieve the holy grail of seeing "their data in Google Earth".
> > > >
> > > >   http://dailyheadlines.uark.edu/7507.htm
> > > >
> > > > This is not uncommon, and it is not particularly sinister from a
> > > > "business" point of view, since the givers are receiving what they
>
> > > > want (access in a kewl tewl) and the givees are receiving what
> > > > they want (data they can add to Google Earth for free).
> > >
> > > --
> > > David Percy
> > > Geospatial Data Manager
> > > Geology Department
> > > Portland State University
> > > http://gisgeek.pdx.edu
> > > 503-725-3373
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Puneet Kishor http://punkish.eidesis.org/ Nelson Inst. for Env. Studies,
> UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu/ Open Source Geospatial Foundation
> http://www.osgeo.org/education/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> collaborate, communicate, compete
> =====================================================================
>

-- 
Puneet Kishor http://punkish.eidesis.org/
Nelson Inst. for Env. Studies, UW-Madison http://www.nelson.wisc.edu/
Open Source Geospatial Foundation http://www.osgeo.org/education/
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collaborate, communicate, compete
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