<HTML dir=ltr><HEAD><TITLE>RE: [VisCom] Logo/branding effort</TITLE>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>I was not a strong +1 on this to begin with (maybe +0.5 or so), but after thinking about this issue all day now, I'm even more undecided.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>For example, unwittingly inspired by Arnulf, I can go to one extreme and </FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>wonder if we should *ever* allow ourselves to be forced to play the legal game that "The Man" wants to impose upon us -- hey, let's just draw up our logo and move on and whatever happens happen!... But then I reply to myself -- hey, even the *FSF* uses some very formal, legal means (the GPL) to protect itself and its goals from The Man, and who am I to argue with the FSF?</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Researching on Wikipedia about various trademark definitions and issues just made my head hurt.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>I started looking around some more to see who is using trademarks in the open source world. FSF doesn't say anything anywhere about trademarks of it's distinctive hand-drawn Gnu symbol or the FSF name. Creative Commons does not use a (tm) on their logo -- but they do have a page carefully describing use of their trademarks. OSI uses a (tm) on their logo; Apache does not; the Python Foundation does... Aargh!</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>If anything, I feel comforted knowing that its not just me: the rest of the world is seriously confused by this issue too.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Looking forward to having the Board tell me how to think,</FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>-mpg(tm)</FONT></DIV>
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Michael P. Gerlek<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thu 9/28/2006 10:36 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'dev@visibilitycommittee.osgeo.org'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [VisCom] Logo/branding effort<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
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<P><FONT size=2>Arnulf-<BR><BR>Sorry you weren't there this morning, as this is clearly something that we need to come to consensus on at the Foundation level -- as opposed to just talking within VisCom, or just taking a majority vote.<BR><BR>Have fun at tomorrow's board meeting :-)<BR><BR>-mpg<BR><BR><BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From: Arnulf Christl [<A href="mailto:arnulf.christl@ccgis.de">mailto:arnulf.christl@ccgis.de</A>]<BR>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:22 AM<BR>> To: dev@visibilitycommittee.osgeo.org<BR>> Subject: Re: [VisCom] Logo/branding effort<BR>><BR>> Michael P. Gerlek wrote:<BR>> > I have made a proposal for the logo design work here:<BR>> > <A href="http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/LogoProposal">http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/LogoProposal</A><BR>> ><BR>> > If we (VisCom) can vote on this tomorrow, then assuming it<BR>> passes we can<BR>> > give it over the board for their meeting on the 29th.<BR>> ><BR>> > -mpg<BR>><BR>> Hi,<BR>> go for it. I am so very fed up with not having proper logos<BR>> that anything but what we not have now is better. I have also<BR>> requested for proposals, one ranged at €10T one at €8T with<BR>> comparable content. In our high price regions this seems to<BR>> be the price tag.<BR>><BR>> Sorry for the lengthy rest of this post.<BR>><BR>> There are still some other things that I would like to<BR>> discuss regarding Logo use<BR>> (<A href="http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Logo_Use)-">http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/Logo_Use)-</A> which has by now<BR>> mutated into Trademark Guidelines<BR>> (<A href="http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/TrademarkGuidelines">http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/TrademarkGuidelines</A>) which<BR>> sort of offends me a bit. My bit, a little. Whatever.<BR>><BR>> There has been some talk on whether we need to enforce usage<BR>> of OSGeo with (tm) or (r). I have asked several times why<BR>> this would seem a requirement and brought up some reasons on<BR>> why I think it is not required but the issue was never resolved.<BR>><BR>> Ubuntu policy (<A href="http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy">http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy</A>)<BR>> is less complicated and enforcing with regard to adding the<BR>> (tm) or (r) than Mozilla thus I like it more. I suggest to<BR>> remove the tm/r bit from:<BR>> <A href="http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/TrademarkGuidelines">http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/TrademarkGuidelines</A>.<BR>> Done. ((I am unhappy at deleting other people's thoughts,<BR>> blabla and please do not feel offended - in the end it is<BR>> just a Wiki...))<BR>><BR>> This article on Wikipedia differentiates trademark rights<BR>> "use and registration":<BR>> <A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark#Establishing_trademark_">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark#Establishing_trademark_</A><BR>> rights_.E2.80.94_use_and_registration<BR>><BR>> From Wikipedia:<BR>> ''<BR>> The law considers a trademark to be a form of property.<BR>> Proprietary rights in relation to a trademark may be<BR>> established through actual use in the marketplace, or through<BR>> registration of the mark with the trade marks office (or<BR>> "trademarks registry") of a particular jurisdiction. In many<BR>> jurisdictions, trademark rights can be established through<BR>> either or both means. Certain jurisdictions generally do not<BR>> recognise trademarks rights arising through use (e.g. China).<BR>> If trademark owners do not hold registrations for their marks<BR>> in such jurisdictions, the extent to which they will be able<BR>> to enforce their rights through trademark infringement<BR>> proceedings will therefore be limited.<BR>> ''<BR>><BR>> Having the words "property" and "Proprietary rights"<BR>> mentioned twice in the first dozen words shows in what realms<BR>> we are moving. I don't believe that it will be necessary for<BR>> OSGeo "to enforce their rights through trademark infringement<BR>> proceedings". I simply cannot imagine that anybody would get<BR>> anything at all out of misusing our Logo for any prolonged<BR>> stretch of time. ((Having tm/r there or not does not make any<BR>> difference with espect to the amount of back checking that we<BR>> need to do)) It will only ruin the potential offender's<BR>> reputation for quite a while. OSGeo only exists as it does<BR>> because there is a large user base and OSGeo is NOT for<BR>> profit. The situation is therefore very different to that of<BR>> a commercial company trying to fight on the marketplace<BR>> against another competitor with comparable products and<BR>> services. OSGeo very explicitly says that it will *not* work<BR>> (compete) against other existing initiatives but try to<BR>> connect and collaborate. From this perspective<BR>> the idea of somebody "stealing" the logo to make profit on<BR>> the expense of OSGeo becomes rather negligible. Same is true<BR>> for the communities we are delivering our goods. We do not<BR>> compete with Microsoft for billions of browser users and<BR>> predominance of the world.<BR>><BR>> This does not mean that we can just forget about defining in<BR>> which context the logo and term OSGeo / OSGeo.org etc. are to<BR>> be used. We need to have a very clear (make it simple)<BR>> guideline that people understand without having to ask a<BR>> lawyer. But I do not support the idea of relying on the beast<BR>> that we are fighting with the Free and Open Source idea. This<BR>> simply does not make sense.<BR>><BR>> == Services Related to OSGeo Software ==<BR>> This aspect of logo use is highly interesting to service<BR>> providers and closely related to the bold company listing<BR>> that is being discussed elsewhere and starts to grow on the<BR>> Drupal portal.<BR>><BR>> I believe that this is going to be one of the natural and<BR>> powerful branding multipliers for OSGeo visibility. Once<BR>> people identify the OSGeo logo with some kind of 'certified'<BR>> (insert other wording) services it will be a 'fast-selling<BR>> item'. Just look at the CCGIS homepage and what do you see?<BR>> The OGC logo :-( ...but not OSGeo because we cannot do it as<BR>> there is no guideline yet. We (as a company) need more<BR>> guidance on this and I am not going to get involved in<BR>> designing the process / policy to avoid conflicting interests.<BR>><BR>> == Logos and Merchandise ==<BR>> I don't think that merchandise actually is "that's how we<BR>> make some of the money that keeps us around." We are very<BR>> different in dimension compared to Mozilla. They might make<BR>> some income but we don't and likely never will. Our user base<BR>> is just too small. Additionally I would suggest to remove the<BR>> unique selling point CafePress. Its good that we have it but<BR>> there are other remote places where people might want to use<BR>> OSGeo shirts and can get them a lot cheaper than having to<BR>> ship them around the world. ((I am just imagining CafePress<BR>> shirts being produced in China with fibers from Brazil,<BR>> colors from Germany, someone sticking it into a package in<BR>> the US shipping it back to China. We are not that mad, are we?))<BR>><BR>> Last but not least I will try to add the [[Category:Trademark<BR>> Policy]] to all pages referring to logo, branding, linking,<BR>> etc. We need to clean that out and come up with a stable<BR>> version that can be approved by the board and moved to the<BR>> Drupal Portal.<BR>><BR>> Best regards,<BR>> Arnulf.<BR>><BR>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@visibilitycommittee.osgeo.org<BR>> For additional commands, e-mail:<BR>> dev-help@visibilitycommittee.osgeo.org<BR>><BR>> </FONT></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>