<div><div dir="auto">With respect to chat, we have a similar thing with GeoServer first using IRC and now Gitter. The main goal here is not an archive, or to insist on email, but to ensure that any potential contributors can join the conversation and are not excluded.</div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I would also like to thank you for this discussion, it is setting a great example :)</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 5:10 AM Aarnio Timo (MML) <<a href="mailto:timo.aarnio@maanmittauslaitos.fi">timo.aarnio@maanmittauslaitos.fi</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="FI" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div class="m_8833764458747116277WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">Dear list members!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">Thank you so much for you assesment Arnulf and thank you for your valuable comments Cameron and Bruce!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">I’ll try to answer some of the questions and concerns raised here.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">The mailing list has been so far more as Arnulf described, an announcement channel. However there have been multiple questions and answers regarding the software as well. You’ve gotta start somewhere
right? Also some people seem to dislike email lists and say that they are old fashioned. Personally I don’t completely agree but I see where these comments are coming from.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">In our day to day work we use Slack (and nowadays also Rocket.Chat) for communication. I agree that having logs from our chats might be beneficial for others, but there are at least two things to
note here:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">- We use the free version of Slack which supports only 10k messages of history, so we’d have to develop some method of fetching the chat archive (+attached media) and then store&publish it somewhere.
Not sure what the terms of use for Slack say about this - we could check.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">- A lot of the discussion (chat) is in Finnish. Also a lot of it happens via private messages between two developers and even though we’ve tried to encourage people to chat on the public channels
sometimes it just does not happen.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">Anyone that has questions and/or is developing something to Oskari is welcomed to our Slack. We even planned to automate the invitations, so that one wouldn’t have to ask one from us.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">For now I guess the best source for discussions and decisions is GitHub and the PSC meeting notes. We also planned to make the PSC meetings happen regularly (e.g. once a month) in the sake of sharing
information & knowledge exchange.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">We’ve discussed the OSGeo Live issue early last year and decided that at this point it’s not something we will focus on. Like Arnulf noted Oskari is a “platform” product and relies heavily on external
data sets so it’s not that well suited for OSGeo Live.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">About the question about Roadmap items and external contributors: Oskari has had external contributors for quite some time, but obviously here more is better. The most recent “external” contribution
is this <a href="https://github.com/oskariorg/oskari-docs/issues/61" target="_blank">https://github.com/oskariorg/oskari-docs/issues/61</a> - as an example of something that “went through the process”. I put the word external in quotes because I don’t know what qualifies
as being external? The free-to-join Oskari Community has now more than 30 organizations and many of them are using or developing Oskari actively. Last year the first company (then Dimenteq Ltd now Sitowise Ltd) started selling Oskari as a service and also
Oskari development and maintenance. This year another company (Gispo Ltd) started offering crowd-funding facilitating services for developing Oskari collaboratively - tbh they are piloting it for now. I really see both of these examples as very positive development
and I think they also secure the future of Oskari to some extent.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">Obviously a more broader adoption is something we still strive for. For a software like Oskari it’s challenging but little by little we’ve already managed to do it so it’s possible :)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">I don’t think we’re in any rush for the graduation and this discussion will be very helpful for us to develop our process even further. So please do comment back so we know what kind of steps to
take next and how to proceed. My holidays start today so don’t wonder if I’m not replying for a while, I’ll get back to work in August.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">Thanks again for your support!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">BR,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d">Timo<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> Incubator [mailto:<a href="mailto:incubator-bounces@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">incubator-bounces@lists.osgeo.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bruce Bannerman<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 6. heinäkuuta 2018 0:17<br>
<b>To:</b> Cameron Shorter <<a href="mailto:cameron.shorter@gmail.com" target="_blank">cameron.shorter@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:Oskari-user@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Oskari-user@lists.osgeo.org</a>; Sanna Jokela (Gispo) <<a href="mailto:sanna@gispo.fi" target="_blank">sanna@gispo.fi</a>>; <a href="mailto:incubator@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">incubator@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Incubator] Oskari Incubation status<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div></div></div><div lang="FI" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="m_8833764458747116277WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Arnulf,<span style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for your detailed assessment. ...and yes, I did read to the bottom ;-)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I would like to see a response to your questions from Timo, or another representative of the Oskari community. In particular a response to the issues of open communities and decision making.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">From what I’ve viewed on the project website, Oskari has considerable potential. However, good software is only part of the picture.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Having a good, strong, healthy and active community that is diverse and uses open processes will help the project to survive when funding from the major sponsor ceases.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kind regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bruce<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 6 Jul 2018, at 03:02, Cameron Shorter <<a href="mailto:cameron.shorter@gmail.com" target="_blank">cameron.shorter@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p>Arnulf, to answer your question at the bottom, yes I read to the bottom, and really appreciate your detailed assessment.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Based on Arnulf's assessment, it sounds like Sskari probably has a good codebase, with good work from within one organisation, but is yet to attract engaged external developers. This is a great milestone, and worth acknowledging. But the "unicorn" projects
that we look for in OSGeo incubation are those with a healthy community from multiple organisations.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>The "extent of collaboration" criteria provides validation of the quality of the project, and is a very good indicator of long term sustainability.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">To the Oskari folks, you might want to read this presentation I gave a while back on business justifications for backing collaboration:
<br>
<a href="http://cameronshorter.blogspot.com/2017/11/open-source-pitch-for-your-boss.html" target="_blank">http://cameronshorter.blogspot.com/2017/11/open-source-pitch-for-your-boss.html</a><br>
<br>
Without digging into the details any further, I suspect Oskari would need to work on attracting co-contributors, from multiple organisations, and we would likely see evidence of this happening by seeing archive logs of collaborative email lists, or slack or
IRC or similar.<br>
<br>
Warm regards, Cameron<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 6/7/18 2:11 am, Arnulf Christl (Metaspatial) wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>Hi Folks, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>this is an update on the Incubation process of Oskari. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p><a href="https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Oskari_Incubation_Status" target="_blank">https://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Oskari_Incubation_Status</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>As mentor I am still somewhat hesitant to recommend Oskari for OSGeo Incubation because I cannot find a good indicator supporting that there is an open community and communication. Personally I know some of the current core team and totally trust them to
work in the Open Source way of doing things. But this may not be quite apparent to anybody not into the project.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Oskari is doing a good job posting news and updates to the OSGeo user list (<a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/oskari-user/" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/oskari-user/</a>) but the list is not really used by users for any kind of discussion,
help or future development. It feels more like a low volume announce list (which is totally OK, so please keep it up).
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>How and where is the development being discussed? Who can join the Oskari Slack channel - or whatever else is used to have technical and strategic discussions? Are there archives of discussions and decisions? Do you manage to do this in English or is it
still everything communicated in Finnish? <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>In a PSC presentation from December 2016 one bullet-point says that Oskari may become a project on OSGeo live:
<a href="https://oskariorg.github.io/files/20161220-Oskari_OSGEO_PSC.pdf" target="_blank">https://oskariorg.github.io/files/20161220-Oskari_OSGEO_PSC.pdf.
<br>
</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Actually, Incubation is not a requirement, so please feel free to approach the OSGeo Live team to find out more.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>In the Roadmap document (which in my opinion is actually ery good) at: <a href="https://github.com/oskariorg/oskari-docs/wiki/Roadmap-process" target="_blank">
https://github.com/oskariorg/oskari-docs/wiki/Roadmap-process</a> you say that: <u></u>
<u></u></p>
<p><i>"After communicating with Oskari community the roadmap items enter Active stage [...]".
</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Can you give us an example of where and how this has happened? <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>There are some updates on GitHub issues but it appears to be mostly internal team members (which is totally OK, is this where the collaborative aspect of the future development takes place?
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><a href="https://github.com/oskariorg/oskari-docs/labels/roadmap" target="_blank">https://github.com/oskariorg/oskari-docs/labels/roadmap</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Regarding Code Copyright Review you state that: <u></u><u></u></p>
<p><i>All code has been developed by the registered developers listed on github who have signed the CLA. All external libraries have project compatible licenses. The project has been started as a regular Open Source project following the guidelines as set out
by OSGeo. A file-per-file code review was therefore deemed superfluous. </i><u></u><u></u></p>
<p>As mentor I can confirm that this is correct and satisfies OSGeo's requirements (and yes, I did some quick checks on random code files but due to the well organized origin of the project did not go through all code like we had to in the GRASS project...
:-).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>In the last PSC meeting in December 2017 a decision was taken to schedule the next meeting "as needed".
<u></u><u></u></p>
<h2 id="m_8833764458747116277meetingsactivity"><i>Meetings/activity</i><u></u><u></u></h2>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal">
<i>[...]</i><u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">
<i>future meetings schedule: continue with “as needed” (no need for a fixed schedule)</i><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p>Summarizing the current status: We discussed some of the above topics before and it is not a requirement for OSGeo Incubation to have active mailing lists and so on. But it is a requirement to have an open process and ideally also a somewhat growing user
community. Obviously due its character as a complex portal platform Oskari is not a software that will have millions of downloads but a little broader adoption would be nice to see.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>You also say: <u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal">
<i>Slack/Mailinglist can be used more actively to discuss any issues/voting</i><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p>If you are not using the Slack channel (which unfortunately is not open), where is the communication taking place?
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>The PSC meeting notes from December 2017 has a list of current installations / users / contributions. This is good to see. Has there been any additions, changes over the past half year?
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Even if you can not produce evidence for any or all of the above issues I will be happy to recommend Oskari for Incubation if you believe that this will help the project. Then it will be up to the Incubation committee to decide whether we can recommend graduation
to the OSGeo Board of Directors. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>We will have to expect some discussion on the Incubation list on the above topics and this is not bad but a sign of a healthy process.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<h3>Internal note to the Incubation committee <u></u><u></u></h3>
<p>IF you ever made it down to this line and maybe even checked some of the referenced documents, please be so kind as to acknowledge this on the mailing list so that we can help Oskari move on.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>It may also be a good idea to go back to the Incubation process and check whether it should be revised for certain aspects (especially requirement on mailing lists / alternatives like Slack).
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>Anything else you need, let me know. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>Thank you, <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Arnulf<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Am 2018-06-25 um 17:05 schrieb Aarnio Timo (MML):<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Incubator-list!<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We’d like to inquire about the incubation status of Oskari. What are the next steps should be in the incubation process? In our end we’ve done everything we’ve realized that we have to do. But is there something still
wanted from us? Or is the process in the OSGeo end now? If so, what are the steps there and is there possibly any estimate when we can think about graduating?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kind regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Timo Aarnio</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Incubator mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Incubator@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Incubator@lists.osgeo.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<pre>-- <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Spatially enabling your business<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="http://metaspatial.net" target="_blank">http://metaspatial.net</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Incubator mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Incubator@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Incubator@lists.osgeo.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<pre>-- <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Cameron Shorter<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Technology Demystifier<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Open Technologies and Geospatial Consultant<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>M +61 (0) 419 142 254<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">_______________________________________________<br>
Incubator mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Incubator@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Incubator@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Incubator mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Incubator@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">Incubator@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator</a></blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">--<div>Jody Garnett</div></div></div>