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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Bborie,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Thanks for your thoughtful and calm comments. After reading it I feel like a bit of a jerk.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>I do especially like your note about<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><ul type=disc><ul type=circle><ul type=square><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level3 lfo3'>Given that we have an existing contribution guidelines doc, let's do a review transparently in postgis-devel so that everyone has visibility and all interested parties may express their opinions. We need to ensure "fair play" to give the community a chance to grow. Otherwise, we stay insular.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level3 lfo3'>We need to firm up our checks and balances:<o:p></o:p></li><ul type=square><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level4 lfo3'>What are the minimum requirements of a PR? Unit tests? Integration tests (something that requires the database to be up)? Valgrind for memory leaks?<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level4 lfo3'>How many reviewers required for a PR?<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level4 lfo3'>What automated testing is required for each PR before it can be merged? I'm talking about which test suites and on which platforms<o:p></o:p></li></ul></ul></ul></ul><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>I hadn’t given much thought to that but agree we should.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Regina<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> postgis-devel [mailto:postgis-devel-bounces@lists.osgeo.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bborie Park<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 24, 2019 12:18 PM<br><b>To:</b> PostGIS Development Discussion <postgis-devel@lists.osgeo.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [postgis-devel] PSC Vote: Move from svn to Git (and by git I mean Gitea)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hey All,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I was hoping to keep lurking but I should probably chime in.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>After reviewing the threads, these are the common themes I see:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'>Moving from svn to git for version control generally has consensus as a positive move<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'>Moving from trac to a more current git development platform is where all the discussion is focused on. The volume of commentary makes sense as there are so many dimensions here (e.g. SaaS vs self-hosted, Free as in Beer vs Free as in Speech, UX preferences, Latent momentum in the greater OSS and Developer communities)<o:p></o:p></li></ul><div><p class=MsoNormal>If you want to stop reading here, my suggestions are:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'>Yes to moving to Git<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'>Yes to moving to GitHub<o:p></o:p></li></ul><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>My reasons for these two suggestions are as follows:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Obviously for me to vote one way or another means I have to include my opinions (puts on fire-proof jacket)...<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'>The easy one... pretty pretty please move off of svn to git. Experimentation is just easier<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo3'>Move to github. Here are my reasons why<o:p></o:p></li></ul><ul type=disc><ul type=circle><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3'>As a massive fan of bare metal, it kinda pains me to say that we should not have to think about the infrastructure upon which the tools of "how we work" run. So yes, let's just use a SaaS offering and get it over with.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3'>I understand the concerns that arise when we see that Github is a proprietary platform. The platform is absolutely proprietary. The version control system underneath is OSS. So "how" we work would be on a proprietary platform, not "what" we work on. Having used GitLab and BitBucket as well, they've all got proprietary bits that may cause concern.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3'>Github was the first SaaS git dev platform that just "clicked". As such, almost every product development community defaults to Github and thus propelling it to become the standard by which all alternatives are measured.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3'>Because of the traction created by Github, communities have accelerated faster than I can believe. My recent experience has all been in computer vision work with deep learning and almost every research model/project/idea is documented on Github, which then gets forked so that participants can verify the original research and iterate on new generations. I see the same patterns happening in FOSS software as well. Momentum builds and you've got a snowball moving under its own accord.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3'>As for the sudden increase in exposure (I think GitHub did a fantastic job with their SEO to ensure repos are prominent in Google search results) and hopeful increase in contributors, we should firm up our contribution guidelines and the tooling we use to provide checks and balances on any PRs to master.<o:p></o:p></li></ul></ul><ul type=disc><ul type=circle><ul type=square><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level3 lfo3'>Be transparent by placing the guidelines in a prominent place<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level3 lfo3'>Given that we have an existing contribution guidelines doc, let's do a review transparently in postgis-devel so that everyone has visibility and all interested parties may express their opinions. We need to ensure "fair play" to give the community a chance to grow. Otherwise, we stay insular.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level3 lfo3'>We need to firm up our checks and balances:<o:p></o:p></li></ul></ul></ul><ul type=disc><ul type=circle><ul type=square><ul type=square><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level4 lfo3'>What are the minimum requirements of a PR? Unit tests? Integration tests (something that requires the database to be up)? Valgrind for memory leaks?<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level4 lfo3'>How many reviewers required for a PR?<o:p></o:p></li><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level4 lfo3'>What automated testing is required for each PR before it can be merged? I'm talking about which test suites and on which platforms<o:p></o:p></li></ul></ul></ul></ul><ul type=disc><ul type=circle><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo3'>I suspect most product development communities are familiar with GitHub's UX (exception being BitBucket) as I see the exact same pattern in Gitea and GitLab (GitLab essentially blended the UX patterns of GitHub and BitBucket). So, I don't see there being a usage pattern hurdle for most new contributors.<o:p></o:p></li></ul></ul><div><p class=MsoNormal>I think most of the hurdles to transitioning to Github are addressable by reviewing and updating our processes. Yes, we will lose the degree of control we have now. But I would state that by letting go with a clear set of checks and balances, we are allowing the community to move at its own pace but with us guiding it (like bumpers in bowling).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Funny that all that we're discussing happens all the time under the covers of "private business" at every startup that is fortunate to grow from one to three product developers to 300+.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-bborie<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 2:57 AM Paul Ramsey <<a href="mailto:pramsey@cleverelephant.ca">pramsey@cleverelephant.ca</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal><br><br>> On Oct 23, 2019, at 2:51 AM, Sandro Santilli <<a href="mailto:strk@kbt.io" target="_blank">strk@kbt.io</a>> wrote:<br>> <br>> On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 02:34:49AM -0700, Paul Ramsey wrote:<br>> <br>>> Anyone trying to review development activity or find code to review<br>>> has to check three places (actually four, since they should check the trac<br>>> issue report too). <br>> <br>> This is actually the reason why we want to keep Trac.<br>> Activity should be _only_ review/planned on Trac.<br><br>And a workflow that dupes everything doesn’t bother you? It is one of the many many roadblocks we place in the way of contributors.<br><br>This is the part where Regina chimes in and claims that road blocks are a good thing, so we have:<br><br>(a) multiple places to work branches/PRs is a good thing and<br>(b) deliberately making contribution is a good thing<br><br>and I don’t know what to say to folks who honestly hold those opinions. <br><br>I hate to see all the effort lavished on all this programmer wankery that could be eliding by going to the place where the developers are. It’s not like we’re locked in, we’ve moved before, we’ll move again. We moved to different places because they provided better collaboration than the places they replaced. Recently that metric has changed to instead wanting places that provide ideological consistency for a subset of the PSC. <br><br>CSV/nothing - Refractions<br>SVN/custom - Google Code<br>SVN/trac - OSGeo<br><br>I’d like to hear what Bborie is thinking,<br><br>P<br><br>> <br>> Pull requests landing on any mirror but not having a<br>> corresponding Trac ticket should be just ignored, IMHO.<br>> <br>> Note that a similar problem exists for organizations<br>> having many different repository hosted on GitHub,<br>> enough that external tools are often used to have<br>> a "global view" on what's going on, and easier management<br>> ("what's to be done before going 3.0.0 final?").<br>> <br>> Trac has a plugin to deal with PR coming form any place<br>> (even from private git servers), shall we want to experiment<br>> with that:<br>> <br>> <a href="https://trac-hacks.org/wiki/PullRequestsPlugin" target="_blank">https://trac-hacks.org/wiki/PullRequestsPlugin</a><br>> <br>> --strk;<br>> _______________________________________________<br>> postgis-devel mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:postgis-devel@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">postgis-devel@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>> <a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/postgis-devel" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/postgis-devel</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>postgis-devel mailing list<br><a href="mailto:postgis-devel@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">postgis-devel@lists.osgeo.org</a><br><a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/postgis-devel" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/postgis-devel</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></body></html>