<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">Hi Harrison,<div><br></div><div>How many “known” points have you tested? How where those point position calculated. They could be off. If you are using state geodesic monuments, try to find the documented precision of the monument. States have different types of monuments, some are very old and have different standards. Make sure the geodesic point is not the problem. Make sure the coordinates are in the right CRS. As an example, if the coordinates are published in NAD83 original but you are assuming NAD83(CSRS), then you have a problem. When converting from the monument’s CRS to NAD83 UTM zone 10N, are you using the correct grid files? What is the published precision for this reprojection?</div><div><br></div><div>You say you have houses and trees. This could be the problem. Find a geodesic point that is in the middle of a field or on the side of a highway with no obstacles. Make sur your observations will be done when the constellation is well distributed in the sky. I believe Trimble has a observation planing software that can help you figure out the best time for observation. This could explain why the GEoTX are to the east unless the observations where made at the same time and same conditions (ex leaf off).</div><div><br></div><div>What post processing techniques are you using? How far is the base station from your unit? If you are using a state correction service, can you select more stations? How long are the observations? Have you tried other methods of post processing like PPP? </div><div><br></div><div>Have you contacted Trimble? Have you looked on there site to see if there is a software update (firmware) for the unit or the post processing software? </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div dir="ltr">Nicolas Cadieux<div><a href="https://gitlab.com/njacadieux">https://gitlab.com/njacadieux</a></div></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">Le 8 mars 2021 à 05:24, Springfield Harrison <stellargps@gmail.com> a écrit :<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>Hi Kirk,</p>
<p>Thanks again for the ideas.</p>
<p>Re "I assume your raw data files are being converted to gpx on a
computer since the raw terrasync files are proprietary binary
files". Not sure why you would make this assumption - PFO does
not export GPX files, only GIS files of many kinds, although one
could create a custom format I suppose.</p>
<p>I have always avoided non-GIS formats (Garmin, GPX, GDB, KML,
KMZ, GoogleEarth, iPad/Tablet "mapping", etc.). I'm in the
process of re-mapping a tablet based tree inventory using SW Maps
with a Total Station survey as many of the trees are near the
property boundary. Some of the tablet errors are quite large.
Due to the tree canopy, GPS quality is variable.</p>
<p>I know that many people use tablets and hiking GPS as mapping
tools but I have little faith in them for that purpose.<br>
</p>
<p>For many years my work flow has been: Trimble Receiver +
RTCM/SBAS -> Pathfinder Office [+ RINEX Post Processing] ->
SHP files -> GIS (QGIS or Manifold GIS). The CRS is NAD83 UTM
10N throughout, for my home area at least.<br>
</p>
<p>None of these steps offer any option to choose or modify the Base
Station CRS so I don't think that would be the culprit in my NW
data offset, although maybe I've missed something.</p>
<p>Last fall I collected quite a few points in an attempt to
quantify the problem, if that's what it is. Here are some
summaries:</p>
<p> </p>
<table width="445" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<colgroup><col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:4242;width:87pt" width="116"> <col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:3510;width:72pt" width="96"> <col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:2742;
width:56pt" width="75" span="2"> <col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:3035;width:62pt" width="83"> </colgroup><tbody>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td style="height:12.75pt;width:87pt" width="116" height="17"><b>Average
distance from "Known" point (m)</b><br>
</td>
<td style="width:72pt" width="96"><br>
</td>
<td style="width:56pt" width="75">Location</td>
<td style="width:56pt" width="75"><br>
</td>
<td style="width:62pt" width="83"><br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl30" style="height:12.75pt" height="17" align="center"><b>Receiver</b></td>
<td class="xl31" align="center"><b>Correction</b></td>
<td class="xl46" align="center"><b>Corner</b></td>
<td class="xl47" align="center"><b>IP NW</b></td>
<td class="xl34" align="center"><b>Grand Total</b></td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl26" style="height:12.75pt" height="17">GeoXT</td>
<td class="xl24">Post</td>
<td class="xl35" align="right">1.44</td>
<td class="xl36" align="right"> </td>
<td class="xl42" align="right">1.44</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl27" style="height:12.75pt" height="17"> </td>
<td class="xl25">SBAS</td>
<td class="xl37" align="right">1.37</td>
<td class="xl38" align="right">1.26</td>
<td class="xl43" align="right">1.33</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl27" style="height:12.75pt" height="17"> </td>
<td class="xl25">Uncorr</td>
<td class="xl37" align="right">0.73</td>
<td class="xl38" align="right"><br>
</td>
<td class="xl43" align="right">0.73</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl28" style="height:12.75pt" height="17">GeoXT
Total</td>
<td class="xl29"> </td>
<td class="xl39" align="right"><b>1.34</b></td>
<td class="xl39" align="right"><b>1.26</b></td>
<td class="xl44" align="right"><b>1.32</b></td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl26" style="height:12.75pt" height="17">ProXR</td>
<td class="xl24">RTCM</td>
<td class="xl35" align="right">0.38</td>
<td class="xl36" align="right">0.61</td>
<td class="xl42" align="right">0.49</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl28" style="height:12.75pt" height="17">ProXR
Total</td>
<td class="xl29"> </td>
<td class="xl39" align="right"><b>0.38</b></td>
<td class="xl39" align="right"><b>0.61</b></td>
<td class="xl44" align="right"><b>0.49</b></td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl32" style="height:12.75pt" height="17">Grand
Total</td>
<td class="xl33"> </td>
<td class="xl40" align="right"><b>1.17</b></td>
<td class="xl41" align="right"><b>0.97</b></td>
<td class="xl45" align="right"><b>1.12</b></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><br>
</p>
<p> </p>
<table width="739" height="293" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0">
<colgroup><col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:4242;width:87pt" width="116"> <col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:3510;width:72pt" width="96"> <col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:2742;
width:56pt" width="75" span="2"> <col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:3035;width:62pt" width="83"> <col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:4644;width:95pt" width="127"> <col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:5741;width:118pt" width="157"> <col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:5339;width:110pt" width="146"> </colgroup><tbody>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td style="height:12.75pt;width:87pt" width="116" height="17"><br>
</td>
<td style="width:72pt" width="96"><br>
</td>
<td style="width:56pt" width="75">Location</td>
<td style="width:56pt" width="75">Data</td>
<td style="width:62pt" width="83"><br>
</td>
<td style="width:95pt" width="127"><br>
</td>
<td style="width:118pt" width="157"><br>
</td>
<td style="width:110pt" width="146"><br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td style="height:12.75pt" height="17"><b>Count of Feature
Points and Positions</b><br>
</td>
<td><br>
</td>
<td class="xl28">Corner</td>
<td class="xl29"> </td>
<td class="xl28">IP NW</td>
<td class="xl29"> </td>
<td class="xl48">Total Count of Point_ID</td>
<td class="xl48" style="border-left:none">Total Sum of
Filt_Pos</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl32" style="height:12.75pt" height="17" align="center"><b>Receiver</b></td>
<td class="xl33" align="center"><b>Correction</b></td>
<td class="xl50" align="center"><b>Count of Point_ID</b></td>
<td class="xl51" align="center"><b>Filt_Pos</b></td>
<td class="xl50" align="center"><b>Count of Point_ID</b></td>
<td class="xl51" align="center"><b>Filt_Pos</b></td>
<td class="xl49" align="center"><b> </b></td>
<td class="xl49" style="border-left:none" align="center"><b> </b></td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl26" style="height:12.75pt" height="17">GeoXT</td>
<td class="xl24">Post</td>
<td class="xl36" align="right">9</td>
<td class="xl37" align="right">1492</td>
<td class="xl36" align="right"> </td>
<td class="xl37" align="right"> </td>
<td class="xl38" align="right">9</td>
<td class="xl38" style="border-left:none" align="right">1492</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl27" style="height:12.75pt" height="17"> </td>
<td class="xl25">SBAS</td>
<td class="xl39" align="right">8</td>
<td class="xl40" align="right">1280</td>
<td class="xl39" align="right">5</td>
<td class="xl40" align="right">905</td>
<td class="xl41" align="right">13</td>
<td class="xl41" style="border-left:none" align="right">2185</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl27" style="height:12.75pt" height="17"> </td>
<td class="xl25">Uncorr</td>
<td class="xl39" align="right">2</td>
<td class="xl40" align="right">2836</td>
<td class="xl39" align="right"> </td>
<td class="xl40" align="right"><br>
</td>
<td class="xl41" align="right">2</td>
<td class="xl41" style="border-left:none" align="right">2836</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl30" style="height:12.75pt" height="17">GeoXT
Total</td>
<td class="xl31"> </td>
<td class="xl42" align="right"><b>19</b></td>
<td class="xl43" align="right"><b>5608</b></td>
<td class="xl43" align="right"><b>5</b></td>
<td class="xl43" align="right"><b>905</b></td>
<td class="xl44" align="right"><b>24</b></td>
<td class="xl44" style="border-left:none" align="right"><b>6513</b></td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl26" style="height:12.75pt" height="17">ProXR</td>
<td class="xl24">RTCM</td>
<td class="xl36" align="right">4</td>
<td class="xl37" align="right">2541</td>
<td class="xl36" align="right">4</td>
<td class="xl37" align="right">683</td>
<td class="xl38" align="right">8</td>
<td class="xl38" style="border-left:none" align="right">3224</td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl30" style="height:12.75pt" height="17">ProXR
Total</td>
<td class="xl31"> </td>
<td class="xl42" align="right"><b>4</b></td>
<td class="xl43" align="right"><b>2541</b></td>
<td class="xl43" align="right"><b>4</b></td>
<td class="xl43" align="right"><b>683</b></td>
<td class="xl44" align="right"><b>8</b></td>
<td class="xl44" style="border-left:none" align="right"><b>3224</b></td>
</tr>
<tr style="height:12.75pt" height="17">
<td class="xl34" style="height:12.75pt" height="17">Grand
Total</td>
<td class="xl35"> </td>
<td class="xl45" align="right"><b>23</b></td>
<td class="xl46" align="right"><b>8149</b></td>
<td class="xl45" align="right"><b>9</b></td>
<td class="xl46" align="right"><b>1588</b></td>
<td class="xl47" align="right"><b>32</b></td>
<td class="xl47" style="border-left:none" align="right"><b>9737</b></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Corrected test Points and separation from the antenna location.<br>
</p>
<p><div><malbiblkchcpcpdh.png></div></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>As above but with 2 uncorrected GeoXT points overlaid, including
the individual positions that were averaged.<br>
</p>
<p><div><jpbjaanipeilbbgo.png></div></p>
<p>Notes and findings:</p>
<ol>
<li>Site is open sky but with house and trees adjacent</li>
<li>Antenna is static, occupation periods long (5 sec logging
interval)</li>
<li>32 observations averaged from 9737 positions</li>
<li>some observations are with the GeoXT internal antenna, others
are with a Trimble aircraft antenna (intended for SBAS)<br>
</li>
<li>Work flow as outlined above</li>
<li>The GeoXT uncorrected results are better than either of the
corrected results!?</li>
<li>The corrected ProXR results are better than any of the GeoXT
results, although biased to the east</li>
<li>The uncorrected GeoXT readings exhibit the NW bias but to a
lesser extent which seems to indicate that the correction does
not create the problem but may exacerbate it, if that makes any
sense.</li>
<li>I have probably missed something but my reaction remains that
the receiver may be defective (?)<br>
</li>
</ol>
<p>Thanks again for your help and patience . . . . .<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-----
Cheers, Spring</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/Mar/2021 03:54, kirk wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:1615118094416.61fe0632020c21af@nortekresources.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">Hi Springer.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I assume your raw data files are being converted
to gpx on a computer since the raw terrasync files are
proprietary binary files. If you are using trimble pathfinder,
you can post process differentialy correct the data if you have
access to base station logged at the same time you captured
your field data. Having a base station 100 miles away will not
improve your results as the baseline is too long.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I do not know if you can write a gpx file directly
from pathfinder but I would not bother. I would write a
shapefile which will contain the coordinate system you specify.
Simply open in qgis and you should be good to go. If your older
unit works better, I would expect it may be an issue with the
setup within pathfinder or perhaps the software version.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I think your consistent offset is a direct result
of how you are converting your data from trimble to gpx.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">As I mentioned in my previous comments, there are
many issues which affect accuracy. Just because the box says it
is accurate you will rarely replicate that in the field. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">In terms of WAAS dataframes, these are processed
internally on your field unit.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Kirk Schmidt </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div id="composer_signature" dir="auto">
<div style="font-size:85%;color:#575757" dir="auto">Sent from my
Galaxy</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" style="font-size:100%;color:#000000" align="left">
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Springfield Harrison <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stellargps@gmail.com"><stellargps@gmail.com></a> </div>
<div>Date: 2021-03-07 5:57 a.m. (GMT-04:00) </div>
<div>To: kirk <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kirk@nortekresources.com"><kirk@nortekresources.com></a>, Jorge Gustavo
Rocha <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jgr@geomaster.pt"><jgr@geomaster.pt></a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org">qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org</a>,
Greg Troxel <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gdt@lexort.com"><gdt@lexort.com></a>, Dan
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:19dmb83@gmail.com"><19dmb83@gmail.com></a>, Nicolas Cadieux
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:njacadieux.gitlab@gmail.com"><njacadieux.gitlab@gmail.com></a> </div>
<div>Subject: Re: [Qgis-user] Trimble GeoXT 2005 Accuracy </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<p>Hello All,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the comments, I'll reply more fully tomorrow.<br>
<br>
The receiver is Trimble mapping grade:<br>
<br>
"The GeoExplorer 2005 series consists of:<br>
• The GeoXH™ handheld, providing subfoot (30 cm) accuracy, or
even 8-inch (20 cm) accuracy<br>
with the optional Zephyr™ antenna.<br>
• The GeoXT™ handheld offering submeter accuracy for GIS data
collection and data<br>
maintenance.<br>
• The GeoXM™ handheld with 1–3 meter GPS accuracy for mobile GIS
applications."<br>
<br>
"Post processed carrier accuracy: 1-30cm". This receiver was
probably $5-8000 (?) new.<br>
</p>
<ul>
<li>Data collection was stationary, open sky, good satellite
coverage, several minutes of 5 sec observations, good PDOP</li>
<li>SBAS and/or post processed<br>
</li>
</ul>
<p>The concern is not the accuracy as such, but the systematic NW
shift. This has been observed over several months,
consistently. My old Trimble ProXR (1994?, $20K new!) is
actually better in this regard than the GeoXT!<br>
<br>
The Trimble manuals make no mention of the SBAS CRS, implying
"turn it on and go, the receiver will integrate the SBAS into
the rover file." <br>
<br>
More tomorrow, thanks . . . . .<br>
</p>
<pre cols="72" class="moz-signature">-----
Cheers, Spring</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/Mar/2021 15:56, kirk wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">A few notes.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">sbas which is waas in north America is based on
equatorial satellites which will get you in the 1 m range in
southern Canada. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">you can achieve sub decimeter accuracy
consistently using rtk ,either through a ntrip caster (base
station) broadcasting over the intenet or with your own base
station and a radio link. there are a few chip sets and break
out boards that you acquire and assemble your own system. This
is a very inexpensive option.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Another option in Canada is to use precise point
positioning (PPP) which requires 6 to 12 hours of observation
data using L1, L2 or L1 and L2 data and rinex log files. This
comes in handy if you need to establish a remote base station.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">A proper antennae with a metal ground plane is
also critical to getting quality results.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Observing under a forested canopy is difficult
especially in summer under leaf on conditions, after a rain
which creates multiparth mayhem.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">There is a reason survey grade equipment is
relatively expensive. If you require repeatably accurate
results in a variety of conditions this is an option.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Kirk Schmidt </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto" id="composer_signature">
<div dir="auto" style="font-size:85%;color:#575757">Sent from
my Galaxy</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:100%;color:#000000" dir="auto" align="left">
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Jorge Gustavo Rocha <a href="mailto:jgr@geomaster.pt" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" moz-do-not-send="true"><jgr@geomaster.pt></a>
</div>
<div>Date: 2021-03-06 6:41 p.m. (GMT-04:00) </div>
<div>To: <a href="mailto:qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" moz-do-not-send="true">qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org</a>
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: [Qgis-user] Trimble GeoXT 2005 Accuracy </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<p>Hi,</p>
<p>I just jump in this thread to say I'm really impressed with
Ardusimple. I have a RTK Handheld Surveyor Kit [1] for +- 400
€ and it works really well.</p>
<p>I use the national NTRIP service and I have consistently
precisions around 10 cm with just one receiver. <br>
</p>
<p>I use a free Android application called SW Maps [2]. My
survey points, tracks and photos are collect in a geopackage
that I can read in QGIS. I use it mostly to collect ground
control points for my drone flights.<br>
</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Jorge Gustavo<br>
</p>
<p>[1] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ardusimple.com/product/rtk-handheld-surveyor-kit/" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ardusimple.com/product/rtk-handheld-surveyor-kit/</a></p>
<p>[2] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=np.com.softwel.swmaps" moz-do-not-send="true">https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=np.com.softwel.swmaps</a></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Às 20:12 de 06/03/21, Greg Troxel
escreveu:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Springfield Harrison <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stellargps@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true"><stellargps@gmail.com></a> writes:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Thanks Dan. See my relies to Kirk and Greg. The Emlid sounds
interesting, will have a look.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I have an earlier Emlid Reach (not RS or RS2), which has L1 only, and I
never got it to work well.
Also look at the Ardusimple unit -- but it's more a parts kit than a
system. You need a way to get RTK reference data in, and a good
antenna. One approach is Vespucci (OSM editor for Android) as a
datalogger, and the Ardusimple WiFi NTRIP master to get corrections over
the phone's hotspot.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ardusimple.com/product/simplertk2b/" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ardusimple.com/product/simplertk2b/</a>
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