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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Arnulf,<br>
Yes, the news articles focus of "Open Source beats big bad vendor"
failed to mention all the hard lobbying from a number of OGC
members and I was a little embarrassed that the article
over-emphasised my involvement. <br>
<br>
However, one thing that I think the OGC can learn is that the
reasons ESRI gave for withdrawing were all raised earlier (as you
mention) and were discounted. It was only after intense lobbying
at the 11th hour (of which OSGeo was a part) that ESRI finally
actioned community concern.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 6/06/2013 5:38 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pcreso@pcreso.com">pcreso@pcreso.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
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<td style="font: inherit;" valign="top">+ 1/2 <br>
<br>
I agree with much of Arnulf's commentary, and as an OSGEO
member who did sign the letter, my reasons were not
primarily philosophical or technical, but political. Heavy
sigh :-)<br>
<br>
For some years I have been working towards data sharing
& interoperability between a wide range of national
& international environmental agencies. "OGC
compliant" has become a catchword representing the
progress we have made, mostly using WMS, WFS, CSW &
SOS. From my perspective, introducing a standard that
enabled "OGC compliance" but failed to provide the
interoperability was a retrogade step - irrespective of
technical merits. I admit this is only one perspective
& others may feel differently but it was my primary
motivation.<br>
<br>
I have no doubt that giving the FOSS GIS community open
access to ESRI protocols would indeed give the FOSS
community a situation they would successfully take
advantage of, but I believe there is a better way forward,
& hopefully we are heading there.<br>
<br>
I don't know how much the "open source" input had to do
with ESRI withdrawing. I don't really care why ESRI does
what it does, I do care about what my community does,
& I'm very pleased with the result. <br>
<br>
I think one longer term outcome will be a better RESTful
API, that is perhaps largely ESRI compatible, but
addresses some of the technical issues that have been
mentioned. <br>
<br>
I believe that both OSGEO & OGC have represented the
majority of their stakeholders well, and have made
considered decisions that lead forward. Robust (rather
than acrimonious or self righteous) debate is the best way
for communities to determine the best way forward, &
I'd say the vast majority of the commentary I've followed
has been robust & rational, which is very positive.<br>
<br>
From a cynical perspective, for what is basically a group
of committees, the issue & outcome have been
remarkably open, widely discussed by well informed
experts, & have resulted in what I think is a sensible
decision. <br>
<br>
What more can be asked of a committee? <br>
<br>
<br>
Congratulations to all those who participated!!<br>
<br>
Brent Wood<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Thu, 6/6/13, Baumann, Peter <i><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:p.baumann@jacobs-university.de"><p.baumann@jacobs-university.de></a></i></b>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16,
255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>
From: Baumann, Peter
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:p.baumann@jacobs-university.de"><p.baumann@jacobs-university.de></a><br>
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [OSGeo-Standards]
"Geoservices REST API" story is being discussed on
slashdot<br>
To: "Seven (aka Arnulf)" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:seven@arnulf.us"><seven@arnulf.us></a>, "OSGeo
Discussions" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:discuss@lists.osgeo.org"><discuss@lists.osgeo.org></a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:standards@lists.osgeo.org">"standards@lists.osgeo.org"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:standards@lists.osgeo.org"><standards@lists.osgeo.org></a><br>
Date: Thursday, June 6, 2013, 2:32 AM<br>
<br>
<div class="plainMail">+1, a very balanced viewpoint
indeed!<br>
-Peter<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Dr. Peter Baumann<br>
- Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University
Bremen<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann"
target="_blank">http://www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann</a><br>
mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:p.baumann@jacobs-university.de"
href="/mc/compose?to=p.baumann@jacobs-university.de">p.baumann@jacobs-university.de</a><br>
tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178<br>
- Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.rasdaman.com" target="_blank">http://www.rasdaman.com</a>,
mail:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:baumann@rasdaman.com"
href="/mc/compose?to=baumann@rasdaman.com">baumann@rasdaman.com</a><br>
tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile:
+49-173-5837882<br>
"Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina
epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata,
precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec
preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer,
AD 1083)<br>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:standards-bounces@lists.osgeo.org"
href="/mc/compose?to=standards-bounces@lists.osgeo.org">standards-bounces@lists.osgeo.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:standards-bounces@lists.osgeo.org"
href="/mc/compose?to=standards-bounces@lists.osgeo.org">standards-bounces@lists.osgeo.org</a>]
on behalf of Seven (aka Arnulf) [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:seven@arnulf.us"
href="/mc/compose?to=seven@arnulf.us">seven@arnulf.us</a>]<br>
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 3:56 PM<br>
To: OSGeo Discussions; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
ymailto="mailto:standards@lists.osgeo.org"
href="/mc/compose?to=standards@lists.osgeo.org">standards@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Standards] [OSGeo-Discuss]
"Geoservices REST API" story is being discussed on
slashdot<br>
<br>
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<br>
Folks,<br>
lets not get carried away. The decision esri took
depended on many<br>
factors and I have a hard time mapping it directly and
exclusively to<br>
the engagement of open sauce (fudzilla original)
developers.<br>
<br>
Don't get me wrong, I think the initiative by OSGeo
showed that we are<br>
functioning nicely and that we have our act together
(I say we<br>
although I did not sign the submitted paper). But to
say that esri<br>
took the decision to withdraw the standard proposal
because of Open<br>
Source is simply not justified.<br>
<br>
There was a long debate and discussions and even some
dialog on all<br>
levels inside and outside of the OGC by many members
and externals for<br>
two years! It was a good discussion and everybody
involved learned a<br>
lot. The OGC showed its willingness to change and open
their processes<br>
to better fit the way things evolve these days. This
is ongoing.<br>
<br>
Yes, there was also input from OSGeo but in my opinion
pretty late in<br>
the game. We (at least on this list) have known of
this effort by esri<br>
since June 2011 two years ago:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/standards/2012-July/000456.html"
target="_blank">http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/standards/2012-July/000456.html</a><br>
(thanks to Bart)<br>
We were reminded several times, for example in July
2012 by Volker:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/standards/2012-July/000456.html"
target="_blank">http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/standards/2012-July/000456.html</a><br>
...plus there were several posts from the OGC in their
regular<br>
channels for those who care.<br>
<br>
<br>
Has the standard been removed for technical reasons? I
think not. It<br>
was because of a backlash of the broader geospatial
developer (or<br>
rather business?) community (Nota Bene: not only us
Open Source<br>
heroes). And the reasons were fear of the market
leader taking over.<br>
Taking over what exactly?<br>
<br>
I am still not convinced that the result of this
standard would have<br>
been detrimental to Open Source. How that? There is a
good chance that<br>
it would have opened up all current esri clients for
Open Source code<br>
because the proposed standard goes right into the
underwear of esri's<br>
ArcGIS. Having the specification in the OGC would have
guaranteed that<br>
it would not be dropped or changed in a proprietary
whim. Every single<br>
esri client would have had the chance to get some Open
Source pieces<br>
into their game, be it on the client or the server
side. Then learn<br>
that it is more stable, evolves quicker and can
replace the other esri<br>
stuff over time. Simple as that.<br>
<br>
Chance passed, but no problem, we'll get another one.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
For those unsure whether I turned bad: Nope, I didn't.
I still don't<br>
get paid by esri and I still know (not believe) that
Open Source is<br>
the better way forward and it is all happening already
anyway. But<br>
when it comes to politics and strategy we must
acknowledge that things<br>
are not black and white but come in all colors (no,
not shades of gray<br>
:-).<br>
<br>
<br>
Have fun,<br>
Arnulf<br>
<br>
On 04.06.2013 22:41, Cameron Shorter wrote:<br>
> The "Geoservices REST API" story has been picked
up by ITNews,<br>
> Slashdot, and Fudzilla, and is being discussed by
their communities<br>
> in the comments.<br>
><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.itnews.com.au/News/345493,open-source-crusade-blocks-geospatial-standard.aspx/0"
target="_blank">http://www.itnews.com.au/News/345493,open-source-crusade-blocks-geospatial-standard.aspx/0</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/06/03/2229245/gis-community-blocks-esris-geospatial-open-standard-rest-api"
target="_blank">http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/06/03/2229245/gis-community-blocks-esris-geospatial-open-standard-rest-api</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://fudzilla.com/home/item/31581-open-sources-revolt-against-standard"
target="_blank">http://fudzilla.com/home/item/31581-open-sources-revolt-against-standard</a><br>
><br>
><br>
- --<br>
Exploring Space, Time and Mind<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://arnulf.us"
target="_blank">http://arnulf.us</a><br>
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Cameron Shorter
Geospatial Solutions Manager
Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050
Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254
Think Globally, Fix Locally
Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source
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