[Board] Re: RE: [OSGeo-Conf] North American FOSS4G conference

Fri Oct 7 13:53:12 PDT 2011

Hi all,

Obviously the question of a North American FOSS4G / OSGeo conference has
pros and cons. There are some who are concerned that it would have a big
negative impact on the global conference. Based on a pretty detailed look at
data from previous conferences, I personally think these concerns are
overstated. In this email I just wanted to share that data. I include some
of my observations, but please draw your own conclusions (well I'm sure you
all will anyway :) !!).

There are already multiple strong local conferences, including FOSS4G Japan
and FOSSGIS in Germany. According to the 2012 FOSS4G RFP (at
http://svn.osgeo.org/osgeo/foss4g/rfp/2012/osgeo-conference-2012-request-for-proposal.pdf),
attendance at FOSSGIS has been as follows:

2011: >400
2010: no data provided
2009: ~500
2008: >400
2007: ~250
2006: nothing - I'm guessing it started in 2007?

Note that in 2009, the global FOSS4G was in Sydney, and had 436 attendees,
so FOSSGIS was larger than the global event that year. I haven't heard
anyone requesting that OSGeo should somehow try to prevent FOSSGIS from
happening as it is damaging the global FOSS4G (and I don't think there's any
way OSGeo could or should do that anyway).

Let's look at how many people from Germany have attended FOSS4G, to see if
having FOSSGIS there deters Germans from attending. This data comes from
Cameron's spreadsheet at http://bit.ly/p5LZuJ (I will add 2011 data when I
can - using my own records for this email). For comparison purposes I also
include percentages from France, Italy and UK, as countries that you might
expect to be somewhat comparable but that don't have a strong local
conference established (so far as I know ... is there one in Italy? ...
nothing mentioned in the RFP document though).

Percentage of attendees from Germany, France, Italy, UK
2011 (Denver): 1.6, 1.8, 1.9, 1.7
2010 (Barcelona): 7.6, 4.9, 6.1, 3.4,
2009 (Sydney): 3.0, 2.1, 2.8, 1.4 (note strong attendance despite FOSSGIS
being larger than Sydney event that year)
2008 (Cape Town): 2.0, 3.4, 3.4, 1.7
2007 (Victoria): 1.5, 2.5, 2.9, 2.1
2006 (Lausanne): 8.8, 7.6, 9.5, 3.5

Looking at these numbers, German attendance at FOSS4G does not seem to have
been negatively affected by FOSSGIS compared to other countries that one
might expect to be broadly comparable that don't have a large local
conference (to the best of my knowledge).

Now let's look at US and Canadian attendance (percentage) at previous FOSS4G
events:

2011 (Denver): 68.6, 6.3 (=74.9 total)
2010 (Barcelona): 8.1, 3.4 (11.5)
2009 (Sydney): 6.4, 5.5 (11.9)
2008 (Cape Town): 5.2, 2.8 (9.0)
2007 (Victoria): 36.7, 35.0 (71.7)
2006 (Lausanne): 9.2, 6.5 (15.7)

So for non-North American FOSS4G events, the average US+Canadian attendance
has been 12% (or 10.8% based on the most recent 3). Even if North American
attendance took a major hit as a result of a North American conference
(which the German experience doesn't support), say it drops by 50%, you
would only be looking at a 6% drop in total numbers. Maybe some will argue
that other people won't come to the global event if not as many North
Americans are coming, but I think that's a pretty weak argument. I still
think you will have a strong core of key people from the main projects who
will go to the global event regardless of other regional events (both from
North America and around the world).

Another interesting stat from the 2011 conference is that a huge 67% were
attending their first FOSS4G. About 16% had attended 3 or more FOSS4Gs (so
around 150 people), and I think it's fair to regard them as a "FOSS4G hard
core", most of whom who are likely to attend the global conference wherever
it is. That number obviously includes a lot of the key people on projects
who help give FOSS4G continuity from one year to the next, and who are also
people who help draw in other attendees who would like to meet them, hear
them speak, etc.

Lastly, on the survey from 2011 we asked how likely people were to attend
Beijing. 71.8% answered 1 or 2 (where 1 is definitely not) and 14.4% (46
people) answered 4 or 5. Interestingly that 14.4% is very close to the "hard
core" number I just mentioned who have been to 3 or more FOSS4Gs. If you
extrapolate that to all attendees (which may or may not be valid), that
suggests that maybe around 130 people who attended in 2011 are reasonably
likely to attend Beijing. The Beijing organizers are budgeting on an
attendance of 500. Based on all previous events, we should expect between 60
and 75% of attendees in Beijing to be from Asia, most of whom will be
attending their first FOSS4G. So looking at it from multiple angles, both
the survey and historical data suggest a similar number for people from
outside the host continent.

I looked at which countries those 46 people were from who answered 4 or 5
(likely to attend Beijing), and 7 were from the US and 6 from Canada, so
that's 28% of the people who responded that way. That suggests a likely
attendance of 36 people from North America in Beijing, even if there is no
North American event. My feeling is that most of those 36 would go
regardless of whether there is a North American event or not. Even if half
of them chose not to go because of a North American event, I don't think the
loss of 18 North Americans, out of a total of 500 people, should cause
anyone to panic about the nature of the global event. And I think the
attrition would probably be a lot less than that.

So anyway, I think I've gone on long enough. The more I look at the data
from previous conferences, the more I think that having a North American
event would have little to no impact on a global event. But I encourage you
to look at the data and decide for yourself.

I also think that having a North American event more often than every 3-4
years would be very beneficial in growing the use of open source geospatial
here, and I could go on about that a lot more, but won't in this email :).

Cheers,
    Peter.

Cheers,
    Peter.

On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 5:52 PM, Daniel Ames <dan.ames at isu.edu> wrote:

> I also just sent an email to the INSPIRE Forums administrator asking about
> the date/place for the INSPIRE conference 2012. I'll let you know what/if I
> hear back.
>
> - Dan
>
> --------------------------
> Daniel P. Ames, Ph.D. PE
> Associate Professor, Geosciences
> Idaho State University - Idaho Falls
> dan.ames at isu.edu
> geology.isu.edu
> www.mapwindow.org
>
>
>
> 2011/9/27 Karel Charvat <charvat at ccss.cz>
>
>> I am afraid, that it could be exactly in this time. Usually it is date of
>> INSPIRE conference. Or this week or week after. It seems, that till now is
>> not announced. It is only clear, that it will be in Turkey. See
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIxqnNnfRTU.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> If you have till now some chance to move date, I can try to ask EC people
>> about expected date.****
>>
>> Karel****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* Paul Meems [mailto:bontepaarden at gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2011 1:06 PM
>> *To:* Karel Charvat
>> *Cc:* Daniel Ames; conference
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: RE: [OSGeo-Conf] North American FOSS4G conference****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Karel,
>>
>>
>> We've scheduled the conference in Arnhem from 25 - 28 June 2012.
>> When and where will the 2012 INSPIRE conference be held? I've looked at
>> their website but they only show the past conferences.
>> The Central End Eastern European Open Source conference also sounds
>> interesting ;)
>>
>> --
>> Paul
>>
>> ****
>>
>> *[image: Obrázek byl odebrán odesílatelem.]**Paul Meems *
>>
>> Release manager, configuration manager
>> and forum moderator of MapWindow GIS.
>> www.mapwindow.org
>>
>> Owner of MapWindow.nl - Support for
>> Dutch speaking users.
>> www.mapwindow.nl****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> [image: Obrázek byl odebrán odesílatelem.]****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> 2011/9/27 Karel Charvat <charvat at ccss.cz>****
>>
>> Daniel,****
>>
>> In any case we are interested to join MapWindow conference. Please do you
>> know when it will be. Because in end of June is European INSPIRE conference
>> and it is also important for us.****
>>
>> We are planning to organise this Central End Eastern European Open Source
>> conference in week from 21th May****
>>
>> Karel****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> *From:* Daniel Ames [mailto:dan.ames at isu.edu]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2011 12:27 AM
>> *To:* Karel Charvat; Paul Meems
>> *Cc:* conference
>> *Subject:* Re: RE: [OSGeo-Conf] North American FOSS4G conference****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> Karel and other Euro-folks,****
>>
>> The MapWindow team is having our 3rd International conference in The
>> Netherlands in June 2012. We would like to expand this as a regional FOSS4G.
>> If anyone is interested in discussing, please contact me and Paul Meems
>> (copied here).****
>>
>> Thanks,****
>>
>> - Dan
>> --------
>> Daniel P. Ames Ph.D.
>> Idaho State University Dept. of Geosciences
>> dan.ames at isu.edu
>> --------
>> Sent from my Droid****
>>
>> On Sep 23, 2011 2:37 PM, "Karel Charvat" <charvat at ccss.cz> wrote:
>> > Dave and Bart,
>> > I personally think, that rotation principle is good and I think, that is
>> > good to give chance not only for Europe and North America, but also for
>> > other parts of word. I am writing this as representative of
>> organisation,
>> > who competed for this year. We join to the competition, when in first
>> round
>> > was not offer, before we didn't thinking about this. Only when there
>> were
>> > not other offer, we tried to participate. As I mentioned, I am sure,
>> that
>> > China will be organised good event.
>> > I would like also clarify, why we would like organised this Central and
>> > Eastern European event. For many people from post socialist countries
>> > (mainly for people working on Universities), where is many OS developers
>> is
>> > difficult or impossible to travel on FOSS conferences around the World.
>> And
>> > I think, that direct contact are useful and to organise regional events
>> is
>> > chance for them to meet part of community. I think, that this is also
>> > important to support grooving of community in this way. I am sure, that
>> will
>> > be mistake to organise events, which could compeate for World FOSS4G,
>> but
>> > regional events will help to establish cooperation, but also promote OS
>> > solution. I see also his as important aspect to establish ling among
>> > developers and users.
>> > I have also one recommendation, for big FOSS4G conference provide
>> selection
>> > two years in advance, it will give better possibilities and time for
>> > preparation of such large events, but also will give possibilities for
>> > better coordination with regional event.
>> > Karel
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: conference_dev-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>> > [mailto:conference_dev-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Dave
>> McIlhagga
>> > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 9:44 PM
>> > To: Bart van den Eijnden
>> > Cc: conference; OSGeo-Board List
>> > Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Conf] North American FOSS4G conference
>> >
>> > It depends on what OSGeo is trying to achieve through running
>> conferences.
>> > Is it:
>> >
>> > 1. Provide an opportunity for a maximum number of developers to connect
>> face
>> > to face
>> > 2. Encourage adoption of OSGeo technologies
>> > 3. Raise funds for OSGeo
>> > 4. etc...
>> >
>> > Encouraging adoption fo OSGeo was the primary driver for the current 3
>> > region rotation, but I'm not sure if that's still the highest priority
>> of
>> > the organization. Uncertainty in this matter led in some part to the
>> > difficulties in the selection process this year.
>> >
>> > I'd like to suggest that the Board conduct a full review of the
>> conference
>> > selection process -- as it currently feels highly disconnected from the
>> > priorities of the board. The recent decision of the board to eliminate
>> the
>> > Exec Director position was in part rooted in finances -- that's
>> > understandable, however at the same time, selecting China was likely not
>> a
>> > wise choice if finances were the primary driver. Is it possible that
>> this
>> > selection led directly to the termination of the ED position? Was that
>> wise?
>> >
>> >
>> > I believe the FOSS4G selection process is one of the most important
>> > decisions made annually by OSGeo as an organization. What concerns me is
>> > that this decision is currently effectively made by this committee
>> without
>> > it being strongly connected to the priorities of the organization as a
>> > whole.
>> >
>> > If nothing else, given the financial link between this selection, and
>> the
>> > viability of OSGeo, I believe fixing this process needs to be one of the
>> top
>> > priorities by the board.
>> >
>> > My 2 cents.
>> >
>> > Dave
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2011-09-23, at 3:05 PM, Bart van den Eijnden wrote:
>> >
>> >> I totally agree with what Volker says here.
>> >>
>> >> My personal preference would be a two year rotation between Europe and
>> > North America, with only local conferences in Other.
>> >>
>> >> Bart
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>
>> >> On Sep 23, 2011, at 7:52 PM, Volker Mische <volker.mische at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi all,
>> >>>
>> >>> I already wrote it in my blog post about the FOSS4G, but it should
>> also
>> >>> hit the mailing lists as well.
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't think that a yearly North American FOSS4G is a good idea. I
>> fear
>> >>> that people will be going there and the global one will die
>> (especially
>> >>> next year, when it is "in some other country").
>> >>>
>> >>> A lot of devs in the FOSS4G world are from North America (I'd even say
>> >>> the majority, but I'm not sure about it). Those will definitely go to
>> a
>> >>> North American event.
>> >>>
>> >>> I could imagine that many people from Europe can justify one
>> conference
>> >>> to go somewhere in the world, when there's enough value. Which is for
>> >>> me, in case for the FOSS4G, meeting almost all core developers of the
>> >>> various FOSS4G projects.
>> >>>
>> >>> If I have the choice to meet all the North American developers and a
>> lot
>> >>> of other ones as well, and the choice between meeting some American
>> and
>> >>> European developers perhaps at some other place in the world (where it
>> >>> might even be harder to get there (think about past events like
>> >>> Australia)). Where would you go?
>> >>>
>> >>> And also important: where would the sponsors invest? It was already a
>> >>> hard time for the Sydney conference to cover the costs, how hard would
>> >>> it be if there's another big conference?
>> >>>
>> >>> For me those are reasons why the a global event might die, and that
>> >>> would be a shame. As we heard at (I think) the AGM, past conferences
>> >>> planted seeds in those locations.
>> >>>
>> >>> The rotating between Europe, North America and somewhere else makes a
>> >>> lot of sense to me, but if there will be a North American conference
>> >>> every year, we can just drop the "somewhere else" and go for a Europe,
>> >>> North America, North America rotation.
>> >>>
>> >>> For me the solution would be to make more localised conferences in
>> North
>> >>> America, like a West Coast, East Coast, Central, Canadian one. This
>> >>> won't draw to much developers away from the global one. It would kind
>> of
>> >>> the same as in Europe, where we also have local Chapter conferences.
>> >>>
>> >>> Cheers,
>> >>> Volker
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Conference_dev mailing list
>> >>> Conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
>> >>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
>> >>>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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