[Board] Please review: Open Letter asking to avoid format fragmentation in LiDAR standards
Cameron Shorter
cameron.shorter at gmail.com
Mon Apr 20 17:37:37 PDT 2015
Thank you Jeff.
I'm hopeful other board members will also express their opinions and
vote on the motion as well.
Cheers Cameron.
On 21/04/2015 9:32 am, Jeff McKenna wrote:
> Ok my last message on this; on doing some more thinking, it is as
> Cameron said too late to change how the letter is written. So it
> tackles Esri, OGC, and ASPRS head-on (I guess this is why myself and
> others were voted onto the OSGeo Board). I can see Martin's face
> looking at me and hear him saying with a smirk 'come on'. I am
> therefore +1, after saying all that.
>
> Sorry for speaking up so loudly.
>
> And thanks to Martin for all his thankless work. Special thanks to
> mpg for his private thoughts to the OSGeo Board today as well.
>
> Cameron thanks to you also, for letting me speak on this.
>
> Good night everyone.
>
> -jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2015-04-20 7:51 PM, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>> I think you used the correct term, where an open letter could be made
>> using that term "owner" or "developer" and avoid pointing direct
>> fingers, and then for more background information link to the excellent
>> explanation by Martin ("clone wars" blog post). As it is now the letter
>> attacks Esri directly.
>>
>> I guess I could be the only one who feels this way, in which case I
>> would not hold the letter back (I am only one person in this huge open
>> community). So don't worry I'm not planning to hold it back.
>>
>> K I'm being quiet now ha :)
>>
>> -jeff
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2015-04-20 6:18 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
>>> Do other members of the board share Jeff's opinion? Please speak up.
>>>
>>> I'm in an awkward situation. We have 70+ OSGeo community members who
>>> have signed this Open Letter, expecting it to be delivered as we
>>> said we
>>> would.
>>>
>>> If you wish to see the background (story) moved to another page, eg
>>> blog, we could do that.
>>>
>>> Jeff, I understand that you don’t want the letter delivered unless the
>>> word “Esri” removed? I’d argue to the they thing needing changing is
>>> that the owner of “Optimized LAS” publish as an open format. So the
>>> letter needs to be delivered to Esri. Is this a point you'd be prepared
>>> to accept being included in an Open Letter?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Cameron
>>>
>>>
>>> On 21/04/2015 3:52 am, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>>>> Hi Cameron,
>>>>
>>>> I personally feel topics like "the story" as you mention are for
>>>> places like blogs, which I believe Martin documented very well already
>>>> (I've retweeted his post months ago). What I see here on this wiki
>>>> page is the story re-written again. I have a difficult time though
>>>> officially supporting this story with my OSGeo Board hat on though, as
>>>> it doesn't add anything more (throws salt on the wound, so to speak).
>>>>
>>>> I would like to see the OSGeo Board in fact support a request for
>>>> LiDAR standards, and leave out this unfortunate "story".
>>>>
>>>> -jeff
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2015-04-20 12:35 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
>>>>> Hi Jeff,
>>>>> Thanks for your feedback.
>>>>> We did address specific comments (similar to yours) during the
>>>>> request
>>>>> for comment phase, before we asked for signatures.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Now that we have asked for signatures (for the last week or
>>>>> so), it
>>>>> is inappropriate of us to change the text that people have signed up
>>>>> to.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. I do acknowledge your concerns about directly singling out one
>>>>> vendor, and I initially tried writing the story without mentioning
>>>>> them.
>>>>> Unfortunately, this one vendor is so central to the format
>>>>> fragmentation
>>>>> story that it is difficult to tell the story and be specific about
>>>>> the
>>>>> request without mentioning them.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. I'm also mindful that the story has already been breaking on some
>>>>> spatial media for a while now (one of the features of open
>>>>> communication), and mass media is likely to break the story soon -
>>>>> I'd
>>>>> estimate within 12 to 48 hours. In that timeframe, I personally don't
>>>>> have the time for a rewrite.
>>>>>
>>>>> So unfortunately, for these 3 reasons, I think it inappropriate to
>>>>> rewrite this Open Letter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff, I think you have made your vote clear, but can you please
>>>>> officially vote +1, +0, 0, -0, -1 to these 2 proposals. Can the
>>>>> rest of
>>>>> the board please do so also as we need to decide whether the mass
>>>>> media
>>>>> report on this story with or without OSGeo board endorsement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards, Cameron
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 21/04/2015 12:59 am, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Cameron,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In terms of my own feedback to your letter (I cannot speak for the
>>>>>> entire OSGeo Board), I would prefer to remove any reference to any
>>>>>> specific company or institution (such as Esri), and focus the
>>>>>> goal of
>>>>>> the letter (as opposed to a flame war) on the needs for standards
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> LiDAR data. As this page is written now, it is not a surprise to me
>>>>>> that media outlets are drooling over this letter. But what good can
>>>>>> come out of that, other than upsetting a large geospatial vendor in
>>>>>> our ecosystem?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally, I have spoken to Martin about this face-to-face, and
>>>>>> I was
>>>>>> at a presentation he did on this exact topic at FOSS4G-Asia in
>>>>>> December (I moderated his session, small world sometimes isn't
>>>>>> it); it
>>>>>> is a frustrating situation that he was put through, and I support
>>>>>> him
>>>>>> though this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But, since you are asking the OSGeo Board now, I cannot support such
>>>>>> an attack against one organization formally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Short story: can you reword your wiki/letter to focus on
>>>>>> standards for
>>>>>> the LiDAR format, and not attack one organization?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2015-04-20 11:28 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
>>>>>>> As Bart mentioned,
>>>>>>> * After initially being written, the letter was sent to OSGeo
>>>>>>> standards
>>>>>>> list, asking for review.
>>>>>>> * Suchith sent to OGC TC-Discuss list for review, and ESRI
>>>>>>> responded.
>>>>>>> * After ~ 1 week for review, the letter was forwarded to OSGeo
>>>>>>> discuss
>>>>>>> and a few others, asking for signatures (we have ~ 70 signatures,
>>>>>>> growing every day)
>>>>>>> * As per this email thread below, I've asked OSGeo board's
>>>>>>> approval to
>>>>>>> officially present this letter.
>>>>>>> * Today I've had inquiries from mass media. I've asked them to hold
>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>> on breaking the story until the board gives approval to officially
>>>>>>> present the letter, which will add extra weight to the letter. They
>>>>>>> didn't publish today, but may publish in 12 to 48 hours. (Media
>>>>>>> organisations have a strong desire to be the first to publish).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So now the board has had time to consider, can you please all
>>>>>>> vote on
>>>>>>> following 2 proposals:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I request the board support an OSGeo Community developed Open
>>>>>>> Letter aimed at protecting open LiDAR standards.
>>>>>>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/LIDAR_Format_Letter
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Proposal 1: The OSGeo Board agree to include the following
>>>>>>> statement (or similar wording) into the letter:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> = Cover Letter from the OSGeo Board =
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The board of the [http://osgeo.org <http://osgeo.org/> Open
>>>>>>> Source Geospatial Foundation] (OSGeo) is presenting this
>>>>>>> letter to the OGC, ESRI and ASPRS. The letter highlights
>>>>>>> concerns about fragmentation in LiDAR standards from many
>>>>>>> people within the OSGeo community. As always, if there is
>>>>>>> anything the OSGeo board can do to help, then please let us
>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Signed: <OSGeo Board Members>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Proposal 2:
>>>>>>> Once the letter has completed the signature phase, the
>>>>>>> letter
>>>>>>> be emailed from the OSGeo President to key people within
>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> organisations:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mark Reichardt <mreichardt AT opengeospatial.org
>>>>>>> <http://opengeospatial.org>
>>>>>>> <http://opengeospatial.org>>, OSGeo President
>>>>>>> David Danko <DDanko AT esri.com <http://esri.com>
>>>>>>> <http://esri.com>>, ESRI's
>>>>>>> Senior Consultant for GIS Standards
>>>>>>> Stephen D. DeGloria < sdd4 AT cornell.edu
>>>>>>> <http://cornell.edu>
>>>>>>> <http://cornell.edu>>, President of the ASPRS
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 20/04/2015 10:50 pm, Bart van den Eijnden wrote:
>>>>>>>> Jeff,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> this was sent to discuss 1 week ago [1]. It has also been sent to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> OGC TC-Discuss list where Esri has even responded.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2015-April/014137.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>> Bart
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 20 Apr 2015, at 14:44, Jeff McKenna
>>>>>>>>> <jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That would be good Maxi, as my concern is getting community
>>>>>>>>> feedback
>>>>>>>>> before the Board reviews such a request.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Has this letter been sent yet to the general OSGeo community for
>>>>>>>>> review? (the Discuss list) I think it is great that the
>>>>>>>>> Standards
>>>>>>>>> group reviewed it, maybe now it is ready for the general OSGeo
>>>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -jeff
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2015-04-20 6:18 AM, Massimiliano Cannata wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Thare are interesting discussions running on the italian chapter
>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>> It would be nice if someone could wrap-up a short summary of
>>>>>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>>>>>> points.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I could do it in the next days if none is available.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Maxi
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-20 10:30 GMT+02:00 Jachym Cepicky
>>>>>>>>>> <jachym.cepicky at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jachym.cepicky at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jachym.cepicky at gmail.com>>:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm fine with that
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> pá 17. 4. 2015 v 8:56 odesílatel Bart van den Eijnden
>>>>>>>>>> <bartvde at osgis.nl <mailto:bartvde at osgis.nl>
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:bartvde at osgis.nl>> napsal:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hello board,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> do people still need time to comment on the letter or
>>>>>>>>>> can we
>>>>>>>>>> call for a motion on this?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Bart
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 16 Apr 2015, at 13:52, Cameron Shorter
>>>>>>>>>>> <cameron.shorter at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:cameron.shorter at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:cameron.shorter at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi OSGeo Board,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I request the board support an OSGeo Community developed
>>>>>>>>>>> Open
>>>>>>>>>>> Letter aimed at protecting open LiDAR standards.
>>>>>>>>>>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/LIDAR_Format_Letter
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Proposal 1: The OSGeo Board agree to include the
>>>>>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>>>>>> statement (or similar wording) into the letter:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> = Cover Letter from the OSGeo Board =
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The board of the [http://osgeo.org <http://osgeo.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>> Open
>>>>>>>>>>> Source Geospatial Foundation] (OSGeo) is presenting this
>>>>>>>>>>> letter to the OGC, ESRI and ASPRS. The letter highlights
>>>>>>>>>>> concerns about fragmentation in LiDAR standards from
>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>> people within the OSGeo community. As always, if
>>>>>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>>>>> anything the OSGeo board can do to help, then please
>>>>>>>>>>> let us
>>>>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Signed: <OSGeo Board Members>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Proposal 2:
>>>>>>>>>>> Once the letter has completed the signature phase, the
>>>>>>>>>>> letter
>>>>>>>>>>> be emailed from the OSGeo President to key people within
>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>> organisations:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mark Reichardt <mreichardt AT opengeospatial.org
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://opengeospatial.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://opengeospatial.org>>, OSGeo President
>>>>>>>>>>> David Danko <DDanko AT esri.com <http://esri.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://esri.com>>, ESRI's
>>>>>>>>>>> Senior Consultant for GIS Standards
>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen D. DeGloria < sdd4 AT cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://cornell.edu>
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://cornell.edu>>, President of the ASPRS
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/04/2015 12:14 pm, Cameron Shorter wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>> A number of us have been collaboratively developing an
>>>>>>>>>>>> Open
>>>>>>>>>>>> Letter asking key stakeholders to avoid
>>>>>>>>>>>> fragmentation in
>>>>>>>>>>>> LiDAR standards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It starts:
>>>>>>>>>>>> /We, the undersigned, are concerned that the current
>>>>>>>>>>>> interoperability between LiDAR applications, through
>>>>>>>>>>>> use of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the open "LAS" format, is being threatened by ESRI's
>>>>>>>>>>>> introduction and promotion of an alternative "Optimized
>>>>>>>>>>>> LAS"
>>>>>>>>>>>> proprietary format. This is of concern since the
>>>>>>>>>>>> fragmentation of the LAS format will lead to reduced
>>>>>>>>>>>> interoperability between applications and
>>>>>>>>>>>> organisations, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> introduce vendor lock-in./
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Could all interested please:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Review and provide feedback to this standards email
>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. If you agree with the letter, please add your name
>>>>>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Signed" section
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cameron Shorter,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>>>>>>>>>>>> LISAsoft
>>>>>>>>>>>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> P +61 2 9009 5000, Wwww.lisasoft.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://Wwww.lisasoft.com> <http://www.lisasoft.com/>, F
>>>>>>>>>>>> +61 2
>>>>>>>>>>>> 9009 5099
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>>
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>
--
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
P +61 2 9009 5000, W www.lisasoft.com, F +61 2 9009 5099
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