[Board] Please review: Open Letter asking to avoid format fragmentation in LiDAR standards
Jeff McKenna
jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com
Tue Apr 21 07:38:13 PDT 2015
That said Cameron, I would like to know why media outlets are contacting
you directly regarding this. I just read "Australian software developer
Cameron Shorter, the local chair of the not-for-profit OSGeo Foundation,
says...". Is this because you are blogging about this issue? This part
of it all is a little disturbing.
-jeff
On 2015-04-20 9:37 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
> Thank you Jeff.
> I'm hopeful other board members will also express their opinions and
> vote on the motion as well.
>
> Cheers Cameron.
>
> On 21/04/2015 9:32 am, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>> Ok my last message on this; on doing some more thinking, it is as
>> Cameron said too late to change how the letter is written. So it
>> tackles Esri, OGC, and ASPRS head-on (I guess this is why myself and
>> others were voted onto the OSGeo Board). I can see Martin's face
>> looking at me and hear him saying with a smirk 'come on'. I am
>> therefore +1, after saying all that.
>>
>> Sorry for speaking up so loudly.
>>
>> And thanks to Martin for all his thankless work. Special thanks to
>> mpg for his private thoughts to the OSGeo Board today as well.
>>
>> Cameron thanks to you also, for letting me speak on this.
>>
>> Good night everyone.
>>
>> -jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2015-04-20 7:51 PM, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>>> I think you used the correct term, where an open letter could be made
>>> using that term "owner" or "developer" and avoid pointing direct
>>> fingers, and then for more background information link to the excellent
>>> explanation by Martin ("clone wars" blog post). As it is now the letter
>>> attacks Esri directly.
>>>
>>> I guess I could be the only one who feels this way, in which case I
>>> would not hold the letter back (I am only one person in this huge open
>>> community). So don't worry I'm not planning to hold it back.
>>>
>>> K I'm being quiet now ha :)
>>>
>>> -jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2015-04-20 6:18 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
>>>> Do other members of the board share Jeff's opinion? Please speak up.
>>>>
>>>> I'm in an awkward situation. We have 70+ OSGeo community members who
>>>> have signed this Open Letter, expecting it to be delivered as we
>>>> said we
>>>> would.
>>>>
>>>> If you wish to see the background (story) moved to another page, eg
>>>> blog, we could do that.
>>>>
>>>> Jeff, I understand that you don’t want the letter delivered unless the
>>>> word “Esri” removed? I’d argue to the they thing needing changing is
>>>> that the owner of “Optimized LAS” publish as an open format. So the
>>>> letter needs to be delivered to Esri. Is this a point you'd be prepared
>>>> to accept being included in an Open Letter?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Cameron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 21/04/2015 3:52 am, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>>>>> Hi Cameron,
>>>>>
>>>>> I personally feel topics like "the story" as you mention are for
>>>>> places like blogs, which I believe Martin documented very well already
>>>>> (I've retweeted his post months ago). What I see here on this wiki
>>>>> page is the story re-written again. I have a difficult time though
>>>>> officially supporting this story with my OSGeo Board hat on though, as
>>>>> it doesn't add anything more (throws salt on the wound, so to speak).
>>>>>
>>>>> I would like to see the OSGeo Board in fact support a request for
>>>>> LiDAR standards, and leave out this unfortunate "story".
>>>>>
>>>>> -jeff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2015-04-20 12:35 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Jeff,
>>>>>> Thanks for your feedback.
>>>>>> We did address specific comments (similar to yours) during the
>>>>>> request
>>>>>> for comment phase, before we asked for signatures.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Now that we have asked for signatures (for the last week or
>>>>>> so), it
>>>>>> is inappropriate of us to change the text that people have signed up
>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. I do acknowledge your concerns about directly singling out one
>>>>>> vendor, and I initially tried writing the story without mentioning
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>> Unfortunately, this one vendor is so central to the format
>>>>>> fragmentation
>>>>>> story that it is difficult to tell the story and be specific about
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> request without mentioning them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. I'm also mindful that the story has already been breaking on some
>>>>>> spatial media for a while now (one of the features of open
>>>>>> communication), and mass media is likely to break the story soon -
>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>> estimate within 12 to 48 hours. In that timeframe, I personally don't
>>>>>> have the time for a rewrite.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So unfortunately, for these 3 reasons, I think it inappropriate to
>>>>>> rewrite this Open Letter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff, I think you have made your vote clear, but can you please
>>>>>> officially vote +1, +0, 0, -0, -1 to these 2 proposals. Can the
>>>>>> rest of
>>>>>> the board please do so also as we need to decide whether the mass
>>>>>> media
>>>>>> report on this story with or without OSGeo board endorsement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards, Cameron
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 21/04/2015 12:59 am, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Cameron,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In terms of my own feedback to your letter (I cannot speak for the
>>>>>>> entire OSGeo Board), I would prefer to remove any reference to any
>>>>>>> specific company or institution (such as Esri), and focus the
>>>>>>> goal of
>>>>>>> the letter (as opposed to a flame war) on the needs for standards
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> LiDAR data. As this page is written now, it is not a surprise to me
>>>>>>> that media outlets are drooling over this letter. But what good can
>>>>>>> come out of that, other than upsetting a large geospatial vendor in
>>>>>>> our ecosystem?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Personally, I have spoken to Martin about this face-to-face, and
>>>>>>> I was
>>>>>>> at a presentation he did on this exact topic at FOSS4G-Asia in
>>>>>>> December (I moderated his session, small world sometimes isn't
>>>>>>> it); it
>>>>>>> is a frustrating situation that he was put through, and I support
>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>> though this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But, since you are asking the OSGeo Board now, I cannot support such
>>>>>>> an attack against one organization formally.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Short story: can you reword your wiki/letter to focus on
>>>>>>> standards for
>>>>>>> the LiDAR format, and not attack one organization?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -jeff
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2015-04-20 11:28 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
>>>>>>>> As Bart mentioned,
>>>>>>>> * After initially being written, the letter was sent to OSGeo
>>>>>>>> standards
>>>>>>>> list, asking for review.
>>>>>>>> * Suchith sent to OGC TC-Discuss list for review, and ESRI
>>>>>>>> responded.
>>>>>>>> * After ~ 1 week for review, the letter was forwarded to OSGeo
>>>>>>>> discuss
>>>>>>>> and a few others, asking for signatures (we have ~ 70 signatures,
>>>>>>>> growing every day)
>>>>>>>> * As per this email thread below, I've asked OSGeo board's
>>>>>>>> approval to
>>>>>>>> officially present this letter.
>>>>>>>> * Today I've had inquiries from mass media. I've asked them to hold
>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>> on breaking the story until the board gives approval to officially
>>>>>>>> present the letter, which will add extra weight to the letter. They
>>>>>>>> didn't publish today, but may publish in 12 to 48 hours. (Media
>>>>>>>> organisations have a strong desire to be the first to publish).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So now the board has had time to consider, can you please all
>>>>>>>> vote on
>>>>>>>> following 2 proposals:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I request the board support an OSGeo Community developed Open
>>>>>>>> Letter aimed at protecting open LiDAR standards.
>>>>>>>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/LIDAR_Format_Letter
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Proposal 1: The OSGeo Board agree to include the following
>>>>>>>> statement (or similar wording) into the letter:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> = Cover Letter from the OSGeo Board =
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The board of the [http://osgeo.org <http://osgeo.org/> Open
>>>>>>>> Source Geospatial Foundation] (OSGeo) is presenting this
>>>>>>>> letter to the OGC, ESRI and ASPRS. The letter highlights
>>>>>>>> concerns about fragmentation in LiDAR standards from many
>>>>>>>> people within the OSGeo community. As always, if there is
>>>>>>>> anything the OSGeo board can do to help, then please let us
>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Signed: <OSGeo Board Members>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Proposal 2:
>>>>>>>> Once the letter has completed the signature phase, the
>>>>>>>> letter
>>>>>>>> be emailed from the OSGeo President to key people within
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> organisations:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mark Reichardt <mreichardt AT opengeospatial.org
>>>>>>>> <http://opengeospatial.org>
>>>>>>>> <http://opengeospatial.org>>, OSGeo President
>>>>>>>> David Danko <DDanko AT esri.com <http://esri.com>
>>>>>>>> <http://esri.com>>, ESRI's
>>>>>>>> Senior Consultant for GIS Standards
>>>>>>>> Stephen D. DeGloria < sdd4 AT cornell.edu
>>>>>>>> <http://cornell.edu>
>>>>>>>> <http://cornell.edu>>, President of the ASPRS
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 20/04/2015 10:50 pm, Bart van den Eijnden wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Jeff,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> this was sent to discuss 1 week ago [1]. It has also been sent to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> OGC TC-Discuss list where Esri has even responded.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2015-April/014137.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>> Bart
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 20 Apr 2015, at 14:44, Jeff McKenna
>>>>>>>>>> <jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That would be good Maxi, as my concern is getting community
>>>>>>>>>> feedback
>>>>>>>>>> before the Board reviews such a request.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Has this letter been sent yet to the general OSGeo community for
>>>>>>>>>> review? (the Discuss list) I think it is great that the
>>>>>>>>>> Standards
>>>>>>>>>> group reviewed it, maybe now it is ready for the general OSGeo
>>>>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -jeff
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-04-20 6:18 AM, Massimiliano Cannata wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Thare are interesting discussions running on the italian chapter
>>>>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>> It would be nice if someone could wrap-up a short summary of
>>>>>>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>>>>>>> points.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I could do it in the next days if none is available.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Maxi
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-20 10:30 GMT+02:00 Jachym Cepicky
>>>>>>>>>>> <jachym.cepicky at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jachym.cepicky at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jachym.cepicky at gmail.com>>:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm fine with that
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> pá 17. 4. 2015 v 8:56 odesílatel Bart van den Eijnden
>>>>>>>>>>> <bartvde at osgis.nl <mailto:bartvde at osgis.nl>
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:bartvde at osgis.nl>> napsal:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hello board,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> do people still need time to comment on the letter or
>>>>>>>>>>> can we
>>>>>>>>>>> call for a motion on this?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Bart
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 16 Apr 2015, at 13:52, Cameron Shorter
>>>>>>>>>>>> <cameron.shorter at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:cameron.shorter at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:cameron.shorter at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi OSGeo Board,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I request the board support an OSGeo Community developed
>>>>>>>>>>>> Open
>>>>>>>>>>>> Letter aimed at protecting open LiDAR standards.
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/LIDAR_Format_Letter
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Proposal 1: The OSGeo Board agree to include the
>>>>>>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>>>>>>> statement (or similar wording) into the letter:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> = Cover Letter from the OSGeo Board =
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The board of the [http://osgeo.org <http://osgeo.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Open
>>>>>>>>>>>> Source Geospatial Foundation] (OSGeo) is presenting this
>>>>>>>>>>>> letter to the OGC, ESRI and ASPRS. The letter highlights
>>>>>>>>>>>> concerns about fragmentation in LiDAR standards from
>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>> people within the OSGeo community. As always, if
>>>>>>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>>>>>> anything the OSGeo board can do to help, then please
>>>>>>>>>>>> let us
>>>>>>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Signed: <OSGeo Board Members>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Proposal 2:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Once the letter has completed the signature phase, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> letter
>>>>>>>>>>>> be emailed from the OSGeo President to key people within
>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>> organisations:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark Reichardt <mreichardt AT opengeospatial.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://opengeospatial.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://opengeospatial.org>>, OSGeo President
>>>>>>>>>>>> David Danko <DDanko AT esri.com <http://esri.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://esri.com>>, ESRI's
>>>>>>>>>>>> Senior Consultant for GIS Standards
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen D. DeGloria < sdd4 AT cornell.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://cornell.edu>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://cornell.edu>>, President of the ASPRS
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/04/2015 12:14 pm, Cameron Shorter wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A number of us have been collaboratively developing an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Open
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Letter asking key stakeholders to avoid
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fragmentation in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> LiDAR standards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It starts:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> /We, the undersigned, are concerned that the current
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interoperability between LiDAR applications, through
>>>>>>>>>>>>> use of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the open "LAS" format, is being threatened by ESRI's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> introduction and promotion of an alternative "Optimized
>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAS"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> proprietary format. This is of concern since the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fragmentation of the LAS format will lead to reduced
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interoperability between applications and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> organisations, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> introduce vendor lock-in./
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Could all interested please:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Review and provide feedback to this standards email
>>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. If you agree with the letter, please add your name
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Signed" section
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cameron Shorter,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>>>>>>>>>>>>> LISAsoft
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> P +61 2 9009 5000, Wwww.lisasoft.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://Wwww.lisasoft.com> <http://www.lisasoft.com/>, F
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +61 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9009 5099
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Board mailing list
>>>>> Board at lists.osgeo.org
>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>
--
Jeff McKenna
MapServer Consulting and Training Services
http://www.gatewaygeomatics.com/
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