[Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

[Cameron Shorter]

Hi Even,
It is difficult for OSGeo to stop a vendor from promoting their product, 
or promoting a specific lock in strategy.

But we can:
* Support the OGC in developing an OGC standard for LiDAR. Once a 
standard is in place, there is a much stronger reason to make use of 
that Open Standard. In particular, many national government agencies 
have policies which promote standards over proprietary interfaces.

* Provide a position statement (as has been suggested) which explains 
technically the pros and cons of both the proprietary and open LiDAR 
interface.

Regarding OGC GeoPackage standard:
* I would hope that OGC's list of standards supported has a tick for 
read only, and tick for read/write support, so consumers can tell the 
difference.
* It is probably not appropriate for OSGeo as an organisation to 
directly point out ESRI's lack of support for GeoPackage write capability.
* However, it is totally appropriate for individuals and news agencies 
to write about it.

On 2/03/2015 9:37 pm, Even Rouault wrote:
> Stefan,
>
> That a proprietary vendor decides not to implement a standard in its products
> is mainly its problem (as well as the one of its customers). Especially as
> they are plenty of FOSS alternatives that implement the standard! So I'd say
> it is a selling point for FOSS.
>
> The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes his
> *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by FOSS. So
> it really harms the FOSS community. In that matter, the Geoservices REST API
> episode would have been less critical as the protocol had been at least
> opened...
>
> Even
>
>> Dear all, dear OSGeo Board
>>
>> While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your
>> attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same
>> relevance:
>>
>> In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for >> GeoPackage <<
>> vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3:
>> http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages-in
>> -arcgis/ ("Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS")
>>
>> Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only
>> access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability
>> (and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ:
>> http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567
>> ("What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?")
>>
>> I'm still looking for an answer for an "Enhancement Request" but I'm
>> really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards.
>>
>> Yours, S.
>>
>> 2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand <Suchith.Anand at nottingham.ac.uk>:
>>> Colleagues,
>>>
>>> I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open Principles
>>> in Geo Education that "Geo for All" , OSGeo, ICA all stand for and are
>>> working together in our common mission of making geospatial education
>>> and opportunities accessible to all.
>>>
>>> "Geo for All" will take a stand on this as it not only affects our
>>> Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching
>>> but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We
>>> will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining
>>> this.
>>>
>>> "Geo for All" started from very humble beginnings and this was only
>>> possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change
>>> the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great
>>> progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in
>>> developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing
>>> dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to
>>> Uruguay.
>>>
>>> We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry ,
>>> governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary vendor
>>> who was trying  to undermine this initiative indirectly from the very
>>> start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor wants to do
>>> that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will also support
>>> Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling externally on
>>> Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have good relations
>>> with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of friendship is
>>> always open. So please let us all work together.
>>>
>>> Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is
>>> increasing (and will keep  increasing)  even in developing countries and
>>> with free and open source software, even poor schools in developing
>>> countries are getting small computer labs established ( i know this from
>>> my experience in India) .The convergence of all these factors with a
>>> great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation forever.
>>>
>>> I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones
>>> birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity
>>> to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers
>>> like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be
>>> able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality
>>> education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in
>>> developed and developing countries).
>>>
>>> So why should i care? Because i learned one of the most important lessons
>>> in my life in my childhood from my grandmother (who though did not get
>>> the opportunity of "proper education" herself taught me the importance
>>> of the values of  sharing and about  "Vasudeva Kudumbam" which means "We
>>> all belong to one large Universal family" and " Geo for All" is for my
>>> Universal family and i will do everything in my abilities to make sure
>>> education opportunities are open to all.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Suchith
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>>> [ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter
>>> [cameron.shorter at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 7:37 PM
>>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); Paul Ramsey; Carl Reed
>>> Cc: P Kishor; Scott Simmons; ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]  The LAS format,
>>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>>
>>> What would strengthen a position for use of Open LIDAR interfaces would
>>> be if such an Open LIDAR interface were introduced into the OGC
>>> standards program.
>>>
>>> Carl,
>>> I'd be interested to hear you (or someone else from the OGC) explain how
>>> people should approach initiating an Open LIDAR standard, and how much
>>> effort / cost would be required to do so.
>>>
>>> The OSGeo community can then assess whether there is sufficient
>>> motivation to initiate such development of a standard.
>>>
>>> Patrick,
>>> For an Open Letter from OSGeo, it would be a very powerful statement if
>>> we can list a number of influential organisations who will commit to
>>> developing an open, interoperable standard. (This can be a section of
>>> the open letter with signatures).
>>>
>>> On 2/03/2015 4:57 am, Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) wrote:
>>>> Paul,
>>>> I would care to refine the 'yawn' context of 'doing the right thing,'
>>>> that of standing up to actions that directly contravene an
>>>> organization's 'open exchange' mission. This would seem the kind of
>>>> *engaged integrity* quite apart from one deserving a yawn. If your kids
>>>> do something directly contrary to what the family needs for a healthy
>>>> exchange of information, if a yawn is the response, there are even more
>>>> serious issues at stake. -Patrick
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Paul Ramsey [mailto:pramsey at cleverelephant.ca]
>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 9:32 AM
>>>> To: Carl Reed
>>>> Cc: Cameron Shorter; P Kishor; Suchith Anand; Scott Simmons; OSGeo
>>>> Discussions; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); OSGeo-Board;
>>>> ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]
>>>> [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>>>
>>>> Carl,
>>>>
>>>> No, it doesn't really clarify it. I think what people are wondering is
>>>> "does OGC have a default mission and position that closed formats are
>>>> bad for the industry and would it publicly admonish a member who took
>>>> actions that ran counter to that position".  I assume that, as a
>>>> "member driven organization" whose membership includes the offender,
>>>> the OGC will not be standing up and publicly saying "this company is
>>>> contravening the spirit of our organization and mission, that it is
>>>> supposedly supportive of".
>>>>
>>>> Am I incorrect?
>>>>
>>>> WRT to OSGeo, I think that black letter cases like this come along
>>>> infrequently enough that it would not be at all inappropriate for OSGeo
>>>> to publicly state what is wrong with the direction being taken in the
>>>> world of LAS formats. The only trouble is, it's exactly what everyone
>>>> expects we would do, and therefore will be greeted with a collective
>>>> yawn. But it is the right thing, so we should still do it.
>>>>
>>>> ATB,
>>>>
>>>> P.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Carl Reed <creed at opengeospatial.org>
> wrote:
>>>>> All -
>>>>>
>>>>> The OGC is not currently involved in activities related to defining or
>>>>> maintaining LIDAR specific modeling and related encoding standards.
>>>>> Any work the OGC has been doing WRT LIDAR is within the context of
>>>>> processing, visualization, and analytics. Obviously, existing OGC
>>>>> standards such as WCS and GMLJP2 can be used to encode and share small,
>>>>> processed LIDAR data sets. Feel free to check OGC email archives,
>>>>> project pages, and so forth for documentation on any ongoing
>>>>> discussions in the OGC related to LIDAR.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.opengeospatial.org/pub/www/ows9/innovations.html : The
>>>>> thread participants looked at NITF, LIDAR, and DAP/OPeNDAP, and
>>>>> investigated their re-implementation in an OWS environment with a focus
>>>>> on the Web.
>>>>>
>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>> http://koenigstuhl.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/publications/bonn/conference
>>>>> /LanigGeoinformatik09.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> for examples.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope this clarifies the current OGC position.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Carl
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Suchith Anand
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 4:20 AM
>>>>> To: Cameron Shorter ; P Kishor ; Suchith Anand
>>>>> Cc: discuss at lists.osgeo.org ; Hogan, Patrick(ARC-PX) ;
>>>>> board at lists.osgeo.org ; ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format,
>>>>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Cameron,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous
>>>>> Geoservices REST API issues and discussions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much
>>>>> information as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the
>>>>> Geoservices REST API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the
>>>>> community and OSGeo Board and we all can look into this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone from OGC willing to help with this?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole
>>>>> Geo community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be
>>>>> decent enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in the
>>>>> future.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>> Suchith
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: Cameron Shorter [cameron.shorter at gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM
>>>>> To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand
>>>>> Cc: discuss at lists.osgeo.org; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>>>>> board at lists.osgeo.org; ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the
>>>>> ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>>>>
>>>>> Patrick, others,
>>>>> OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in
>>>>> stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here:
>>>>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a
>>>>> vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should
>>>>> consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.
>>>>>
>>>>> 0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?) 1. Describe the issue. (Is
>>>>> there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?) 2.
>>>>> Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the
>>>>> other, on both a technical and commercial point of view.
>>>>> 3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
>>>>> 4. If needed, collect signatures.
>>>>> 5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter
>>>>>
>>>>> On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
>>>>> Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for
>>>>> scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand
>>>>> <Suchith.Anand at nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:Suchith.Anand at nottingham.ac.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Patrick,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board
>>>>> need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from
>>>>> the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be
>>>>> discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the needed
>>>>> support for this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board
>>>>> meeting's agenda items. Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>> Suchith
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From:
>>>>> ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at l
>>>>> ists.osgeo.org>
>>>>> [ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
>>>>> lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer
>>>>> [lfi at ign.ku.dk<mailto:lfi at ign.ku.dk>]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
>>>>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>>>>> ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ
>>>>> clone” by ESRI
>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Lene Fischer
>>>>> Associate Professor
>>>>>
>>>>> Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management University
>>>>> of Copenhagen
>>>>>
>>>>> MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084>
>>>>> lfi at ign.ku.dk<mailto:lfi at ign.ku.dk><mailto:lfi at ign.ku.dk<mailto:lfi at ig
>>>>> n.ku.dk>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [cid:image001.gif at 01D052C3.B23B1060]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fra:
>>>>> ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at l
>>>>> ists.osgeo.org>
>>>>> [mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-b
>>>>> ounces at lists.osgeo.org>]
>>>>> På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
>>>>> Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
>>>>> Til:
>>>>> ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org>
>>>>> Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
>>>>> by ESRI
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear OSGEO,
>>>>> For what our good name is worth. . .
>>>>> Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard
>>>>> for a data format?
>>>>> Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and collective
>>>>> response encouraged.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values?
>>>>> I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are
>>>>> created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
>>>>> unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the pursuit
>>>>> of Openness].”
>>>>>
>>>>> The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>>>> http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clon
>>>>> e/
>>>>>
>>>>> [First paragraph]
>>>>> We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another
>>>>> proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails,
>>>>> retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky
>>>>> tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are
>>>>> being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have
>>>>> enjoyed for many years.
>>>>> [cid:image002.jpg at 01D052C3.B23B1060]
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks much,
>>>>> -Patrick
>>>>> Project Manager
>>>>> NASA World Wind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Puneet Kishor
>>>>> Manager, Science and Data Policy
>>>>> Creative Commons
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Discuss mailing list
>>>>> Discuss at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:Discuss at lists.osgeo.org>
>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cameron Shorter,
>>>>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>>>>> LISAsoft
>>>>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>>>>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>>>>>
>>>>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>,  F
>>>>> +61 2
>>>>> 9009 5099
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
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>>>>> message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
>>>>> message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
>>>>> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
>>>>> University of Nottingham.
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Board mailing list
>>>>> Board at lists.osgeo.org
>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Board mailing list
>>>>> Board at lists.osgeo.org
>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
>>> --
>>> Cameron Shorter,
>>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>>> LISAsoft
>>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>>>
>>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
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>>>
>>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
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>>>
>>> This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
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>> _______________________________________________
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>> Discuss at lists.osgeo.org
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-- 
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009

P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099