[OSGeo-Conf] FOSS4G 2020 - Halifax site causing confusion

Jonathan Moules jonathan-lists at lightpear.com
Thu Dec 5 02:59:19 PST 2019 

I'm wondering if someone can explain how this is different from having 
FOSS4GUK and FOSS4G Bucharest within a month of each other and 
geographically *much* closer? I'm not sure how being in the same country 
is such an issue when the distances are so huge. I'd use an analogy of 
two events on the opposite sides of a continent but... that's exactly 
what's happening! From a green-sustainability perspective this seems 
like a potential win.

I agree with Jerome's point and remember the conversation hence my 
notion and wondering if this is an example of how the current system 
doesn't work? I can see how a year later could make more sense but 
that's for Jeff to decide. Given OSGeo is volunteer driven, shouldn't we 
be encouraging well-meaning participation (even if contentious) rather 
than lambasting it?

Cheers,

Jonathan


On 2019-12-05 07:45, Bart van den Eijnden wrote:
> I find this behaviour totally unacceptable, and I hope the OSGeo board 
> considers removing Jeff from charter membership and I think they 
> should even consider taking back his Sol Katz award. This cannot go 
> without consequences IMHO.
>
> Clearly he hasn't gotten over the disappointment of his proposal not 
> winning, but this is not the way to deal with that.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bart
>
> On 04-12-2019 23:58, Jérôme St-Louis wrote:
>> There were some remarks not long after the bid where it was realized 
>> how much efforts all LOC teams put in these bids, and that it 
>> unfortunately ends up wasted while it could perhaps be used as 
>> proposals for e.g. the regional bids.
>>
>> I would very much support and encourage Jeff in aiming at FOSS4G-NA 
>> 2021 for FOSS4G-HFX, if the efforts could be recycled towards that 
>> possibility!
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> -Jerome
>>
>>
>> On 12/4/19 5:31 PM, Paul Ramsey wrote:
>>> No, it's not really.
>>> The obvious place to put the energy and enthusiasm from a 2nd place
>>> international bid is in running the next relevant regional conference,
>>> FOSS4G-NA 2021 in our case, not in counter-programming against the
>>> actual event.
>>> I'd still like to visit Halifax some time, even some time soon.
>>> ATB,
>>> P.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 4:51 AM Jonathan Moules
>>> <jonathan-lists at lightpear.com> wrote:
>>>>   > The Calgary LOC is disappointed that we now have to compete 
>>>> against
>>>> another event in our own country
>>>>
>>>> While it may be the same "country", Calgary and Halifax are over 
>>>> 3700km
>>>> apart. Geographically at least that's like being disappointed there 
>>>> was
>>>> a FOSS4GUK Edinburgh this year a mere 2420km away from FOSS4G proper
>>>> (Bucharest).
>>>>
>>>> I'd suggest +1 for both going ahead - Canada is huge and people
>>>> (hopefully) travelling less is good. Here's a thought, maybe rather 
>>>> than
>>>> competing both groups could create a single merged event split across
>>>> two venues somehow.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2019-12-03 14:52, Jonathan Neufeld wrote:
>>>>> Hi Eli,
>>>>>
>>>>> I completely agree.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, it appears that Jeff is choosing to go ahead with a 
>>>>> FOSS4G in Halifax.
>>>>> As per the website this morning he says:
>>>>>
>>>>> "2019-12-03:  Hello again world!  We’re excited to announce that 
>>>>> the FOSS4G-HFX event will be happening in 2020 !  The size and 
>>>>> scope may be changed, but the true passion for FOSS4G and sharing 
>>>>> will not.  Watch this space for more updates.  Thank you for all 
>>>>> of the support!"
>>>>>
>>>>> Another pop-up box indicates that
>>>>> "2019-12-02: The venue for FOSS4G-HFX 2020 may actually be the 
>>>>> back of a pub, and a donated university lab, but the FOSS4G spirit 
>>>>> will exist ha! The original proposed venue is listed here, we will 
>>>>> update this page when we have more news on venues. Thank you for 
>>>>> support!"
>>>>>
>>>>> The Calgary LOC is disappointed that we now have to compete 
>>>>> against another event in our own country, especially one being 
>>>>> presented by an OSGeo Charter Member and former OSGeo board 
>>>>> member. We will push forward and continue building a strong event 
>>>>> for August, and we remain confident that 2020 will be the biggest 
>>>>> and best FOSS4G in the history of excellent global events.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Jon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Eli Adam <eadam at co.lincoln.or.us>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 3, 2019 7:17 AM
>>>>> To: Karine Jean <karine at geomatiqc.com>
>>>>> Cc: Jonathan Neufeld <jneufeld at tecterra.com>; 
>>>>> info at gatewaygeomatics.com; jmckenna at osgeo.org; Conference Dev 
>>>>> <conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org>; osgeo-board List 
>>>>> <board at lists.osgeo.org>; chair at foss4g.ca; 
>>>>> jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Conf] FOSS4G 2020 - Halifax site causing 
>>>>> confusion
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope that we hear from Jeff soon and are able to resolve this 
>>>>> without resorting to a TLD authority.  OSGeo is a small community 
>>>>> and we should be able to resolve things internally.  I agree that 
>>>>> it should be addressed soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards, Eli
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 10:27 AM Karine Jean <karine at geomatiqc.com> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry for the delay before answering. As you may know, I do not 
>>>>>> have the access to shut down the foss4g.ca website. Jeff is the 
>>>>>> only owner of this URL and website. I agree that the foss4g.ca 
>>>>>> site in its current form is very misleading but I wanted to have 
>>>>>> more information before responding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jon wrote to me last week about the situation. So, I wrote to 
>>>>>> Jeff to ask him if he could do anything about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff wrote back to me and we had a talk on the phone about the 
>>>>>> situation this morning. I tried to convince him to shut down the 
>>>>>> site but as I wrote I have no control on his decision so I will 
>>>>>> report directly to the board off-list for the next steps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for your patience with this and I wish you all a great 
>>>>>> event in Calgary in 2020.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Karine
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Le lun. 2 déc. 2019 à 10:28, Jonathan Neufeld 
>>>>>> <jneufeld at tecterra.com> a écrit :
>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for all of the support on this issue, as well as the 
>>>>>>> potential avenues to address it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would like to note that I also reached out to Karine and she 
>>>>>>> was gracious and helpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We will explore the potential to have CIRA (the .ca registrar) 
>>>>>>> remove the domain, hopefully it is a quick and efficient process.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would strongly support OSGeo in registering the FOSS4G brand 
>>>>>>> for international trademark protection. FOSS4G has grown into a 
>>>>>>> large conference with attendance consistently at or above the 
>>>>>>> 1,000 person mark and this is something valuable worth 
>>>>>>> protecting so that it can confidently grow into the future.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Conference_dev <conference_dev-bounces at lists.osgeo.org> On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of Jody Garnett
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 1, 2019 10:11 PM
>>>>>>> To: Jérôme St-Louis <jerome at ecere.com>
>>>>>>> Cc: info at gatewaygeomatics.com; jmckenna at osgeo.org; Conference Dev
>>>>>>> <conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org>; karine at geomatiqc.com; osgeo-board
>>>>>>> List <board at lists.osgeo.org>; chair at foss4g.ca
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Conf] FOSS4G 2020 - Halifax site causing
>>>>>>> confusion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good idea let us check:
>>>>>>> https://cira.ca/policy/domain-name/cira-domain-name-dispute-resolutio 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> n-policy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1.4 Eligible Complainants. The person initiating a Proceeding 
>>>>>>> (the “Complainant”) must, at the time of submitting a complaint 
>>>>>>> (the “Complaint”), satisfy the Canadian Presence Requirements 
>>>>>>> for Registrants (the “CPR”) in respect of the domain name that 
>>>>>>> is the subject of the Proceeding unless the Complaint relates to 
>>>>>>> a trade-mark registered in the Canadian Intellectual Property 
>>>>>>> Office (“CIPO”) and the Complainant is the owner of the trade-mark.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It really does look like we need to be the owner of the 
>>>>>>> trademark for OSZGeo be eligible to file a complaint.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However there is something interring there "Canadian Presence 
>>>>>>> Requirement". Perhaps the local conference organizing committee 
>>>>>>> could qualify as a "Canadian Presence Requirement" explain that 
>>>>>>> the current foss4g.ca website represent a failed bid that is 
>>>>>>> interfering with the conference in Calgary?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jody Garnett
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 at 05:49, Jérôme St-Louis <jerome at ecere.com> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jody,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AFAIK Jeff works from his home office and his phone number is 
>>>>>>> listed
>>>>>>> at https://gatewaygeomatics.com/contact.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I question whether obtaining trademark to FOSS4G is possible 
>>>>>>> after it having been freely used in the general sense of Free 
>>>>>>> and Open Source Software for Geospatial in a general sense for 
>>>>>>> many years?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, on foss4g.ca both OSGeo - Ottawa and OSGeo - Quebec 
>>>>>>> names and logos are featured, and both chapters have officially 
>>>>>>> called to re-direct, take down the content, or clarify the fact 
>>>>>>> that the FOSS4G 2020 takes place in Calgary, not Halifax.
>>>>>>> That could be ground enough for .ca to take action?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The name/logo of OSGeo itself is also part of those chapters 
>>>>>>> logo, and that may already be trademarked?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Jerome
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/1/19 11:37 PM, Jody Garnett wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree it is serous, and I recommend adding this to the next board
>>>>>>> meeting (ideally conference chair could attend?)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I also want to say as an organization we do not own the 
>>>>>>> trademark, and we cannot compel action of an individual. Is this 
>>>>>>> statement you disagree with?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps this is a good reason to obtain the foss4g trademark? 
>>>>>>> That would be my advised course of action. Obtain trademark and 
>>>>>>> ask dot ca to remove this site.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also think we could figure out where Jeff is working and phone 
>>>>>>> him.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any other thoughts on actions (not seriousness) Mark?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 4:37 AM Mark Iliffe 
>>>>>>> <markiliffe at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Jody,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I’m sorry to disagree so strongly, but i see this is as a severe 
>>>>>>> issue that dramatically needs to be resolved with haste.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a past (co-)chair of a global FOSS4G, i know the focus is to 
>>>>>>> ensure that funds are raised and the delegates and sponsors are 
>>>>>>> clear on the offering. Right now, this isnt the case as that 
>>>>>>> site does look like Halifax is the host, not Calgary.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would strongly urge the Board to take immediate action to 
>>>>>>> ensure that people are as clear as possible on what is being 
>>>>>>> offered. The domain is the first step to this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are many reasons why time has been taken to resolve this - 
>>>>>>> and as someone who spent the first half of this year quite ill 
>>>>>>> and dropped many balls - I can understand this...! But, we’re 
>>>>>>> less than a year away, so let’s work on resolving this as 
>>>>>>> quickly as possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1 Dec 2019, at 22:28, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> k
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We do not maintain copyright on foss4g, this is a deliberate 
>>>>>>> choice as I understand it. So I do not think we can ask the ca 
>>>>>>> domain to intervene.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for Jeff being unavailable we like to respect folks volunteer 
>>>>>>> capacity and ability to contribute when they have time. We have 
>>>>>>> spent some effort working around his in availability as a board.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is worth bringing this up with the next board meeting. Indeed 
>>>>>>> it may be appropriate to go about claiming the foss4g trademark.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 11:39 PM Steven Feldman 
>>>>>>> <shfeldman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jody
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is this a case where the board is the committee that needs to act?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steven
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +44 (0) 7958 924101
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1 Dec 2019, at 20:01, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We do not need a procedure for everything, some troubles will 
>>>>>>> just need to be handled if they occur.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do not intend to dismiss your interest, osgeo committees are 
>>>>>>> empowered to act and remove individuals who are not welcome. 
>>>>>>> Indeed we ask that all committees / projects / events have a 
>>>>>>> code of conduct.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the August F2F meeting we discussed establishing a black list 
>>>>>>> for individuals who are not welcome at our events, and a "gray 
>>>>>>> list" for individuals who we "wanted to talk with" before they 
>>>>>>> attended one of our events again. The kindest way we could think 
>>>>>>> to handle this is to ask the individual to sign a the code of 
>>>>>>> conduct (so there could be no miscommunication with respect to 
>>>>>>> behaviour).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Individual committees can also control their membership with a 
>>>>>>> motion, projects can adjust an individuals commit access, and so 
>>>>>>> forth. To specifically answer your question the board is in 
>>>>>>> position to update the charter members list (and is supposed to 
>>>>>>> do so as a result of inactivity).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jody Garnett
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 20:08, Steven Feldman 
>>>>>>> <shfeldman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Haven’t seen a response yet and I note that as of now the 
>>>>>>> foss4g.ca site is still up. That is disappointing to say the least.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have copied in Karine Jean who was the co-chair of the Halifax 
>>>>>>> bid using the email on her OSGeo listing, perhaps she can remove 
>>>>>>> the Halifax site or ask Jeff to do so or explain why they think 
>>>>>>> it should remain almost a year after the decision was made to 
>>>>>>> award to Calgary not Halifax?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A question for the board: Do we have any procedure for revoking 
>>>>>>> Charter Membership in the event of behaviour that we consider to 
>>>>>>> be in conflict with OSGeo principles? I am not suggesting that 
>>>>>>> this is the case re Halifax web site but I think it prompts the 
>>>>>>> question of what would/should we do if a CM is considered to 
>>>>>>> have possibly gone rogue?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ______
>>>>>>> Steven
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unusual maps in strange places -  mappery.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Subscribe to my weekly “Maps in the Wild” newsletter
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 22:14, Jonathan Neufeld 
>>>>>>> <jneufeld at tecterra.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I apologize for sending this through the Conference_Dev list, 
>>>>>>> however I’ve been trying to reach Jeff McKenna for the past 
>>>>>>> month with no success. If I am out of line here, please let me 
>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jeff - I’m following up again on my request to take down your 
>>>>>>> Halifax FOSS4G site at https://foss4g.ca/.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I have previously mentioned, the Halifax site is causing 
>>>>>>> confusion with some members of the community.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the spirit of open collaboration and building towards a 
>>>>>>> successful event, we are requesting that you take down the site 
>>>>>>> for Halifax 2020 which is making a false claim of hosting FOSS4G 
>>>>>>> 2020 and sowing confusion amongst potential participants.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JONATHAN NEUFELD
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CO-CHAIR
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FOSS4G 2020 CALGARY
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://2020.foss4g.org/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Conference_dev mailing list
>>>>>>> Conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Conference_dev mailing list
>>>>>>> Conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jody Garnett
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Conference_dev mailing list
>>>>>>> Conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jody Garnett
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Conference_dev mailing list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Conference_dev at lists.osgeo.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/conference_dev
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