[OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and ProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

Fri Aug 21 08:37:14 PDT 2009

Well, according to this page: http://jpeg2000.epfl.ch/ v.5.1, courtesy in part Eastman Kodak, provides "complete JP2 support at the decoding side" - not sure whether that covers the tiling or other geo needs, but doesn't it sound worth investigating?

Chris

----- "Christopher Schmidt" <crschmidt at crschmidt.net> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 08:27:13AM -0700, Landon Blake wrote:
> > Thanks for the information Michael. I am downloading Opticks right
> now.
> > :]
> > 
> > I also found this Java library for JP2, thought I'm not sure how
> > complete/up-to-date it is:
> > 
> > http://jj2000.epfl.ch/
> > 
> > Maybe we need a JPEG 2000 page on the OSGeo wiki.
> 
> Note that "JPEG 2000 support" is different from "JPEG 2000 support
> which
> works on geo-sized images." The tiling (or 'paging'? as Michael calls
> it) support that's supposed to be provided by OpenJPEG2000 has been
> coming 'real soon now' for about 18 months now from my uneducated
> observations, and until it's there, most tools using OpenJPEG for JP2s
> are
> going to suffering under much the same limitations.
> 
> -- Chris
> 
> > Landon
> > Office Phone Number: (209) 946-0268
> > Cell Phone Number: (209) 992-0658
> >  
> >  
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: discuss-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> > [mailto:discuss-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Considine,
> Michael
> > Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 8:09 AM
> > To: OSGeo Discussions
> > Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and
> > ProprietaryAlgorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
> > 
> > All,
> > 
> > Opticks is an open source remote sensing application and
> development
> > framework. We recently started the process to add JPEG 2000 support
> to
> > our framework. We picked OpenJpeg to add JPEG 2000 support to our
> > application. They are also open source. We currently support
> importing
> > JPEG 2000 files but we are currently limited to the 4GB memory size
> > after decoding.
> > 
> > Our plan is to continue development and to upgrade to OpenJpeg 2.0
> once
> > they have a stable release. That will allow Opticks to use a pager
> to
> > display and support much larger files.
> > 
> > Michael Considine
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: discuss-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> > [mailto:discuss-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Bruce
> Bannerman
> > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 8:15 PM
> > To: 'OSGeo Discussions'
> > Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and Proprietary
> > Algorithms[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
> > 
> > 
> > IMO:
> > 
> > 
> > Just another thought on this issue (though we do seem to be
> recycling
> > arguments over the years...):
> > 
> > 
> > Assuming that I have a very large archive of spatial data, be it
> imagery
> > or any other spatial format and that I store my data in a variety
> of
> > proprietary formats:
> > 
> > 
> > In ten years from now, can I be sure that:
> > 
> > - the company that created, understands, and holds the IP in the 
> >   data format will still be around?
> > 
> > - there will still be software that runs on the then current
> >   operating environment, that can read and 'fully exploit' the data
> >   in the proprietary standard?
> > 
> > - that this future software will work seamlessly with my then
> current 
> >   spatial environment?
> > 
> > - if all of the above risks prove to eventuate, can I be sure that
> I'll
> >   be able to salvage my data into another format, retaining its
> complete
> > 
> >   semantic context?
> > 
> > 
> > IMO, it is a high risk proposition to lock public (or private)
> archives
> > away in proprietary data formats. It makes more sense to use open
> > standards and formats that are publically available.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Bruce Bannerman
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: discuss-bounces at lists.osgeo.org 
> > > [mailto:discuss-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Michael 
> > > P. Gerlek
> > > Sent: Friday, 21 August 2009 6:55 AM
> > > To: OSGeo Discussions
> > > Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and 
> > > Proprietary Algorithms
> > > 
> > > Some clarifications:
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > - MrSID has both lossy and lossless modes
> > > 
> > > - MrSID is not fractal based; it uses wavelets (and 
> > > arithmetic encoding)
> > > 
> > > - you can't copyright algorithms; the MrSID source code 
> > > certainly is, however
> > > 
> > > - MrSID relies on a number of patents, not all of which are 
> > > owned by LizardTech
> > > 
> > > - reading MrSID does not require any fees; we have libraries 
> > > you can download, although they are not open source
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > That said, some editorial comments (although I'm now wishing 
> > > I hadn't been so quick to rise to Landon's bait :-)
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > - Some of you know the history of trying to open source 
> > > MrSID; I won't go into that here, except to say that 
> > > LizardTech doesn't own all of the required IP needed to make 
> > > that happen.
> > > 
> > > - If we are speaking of the NAIP data, then no, it is not 
> > > exclusively available in MrSID format; it is also shipped as
> GeoTIFFs.
> > > 
> > > - JPEG 2000 is a very robust open standard alternative to 
> > > MrSID, and a number of players already support it (including 
> > > LizardTech), but not enough to make it viable for certain 
> > > domains like NAIP.
> > > 
> > > - some of you also know the history on open JP2 support: 
> > > there is today no open source implementation of JP2 that is 
> > > suitable for geo work.  Alas.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > -mpg
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > From: discuss-bounces at lists.osgeo.org 
> > > [mailto:discuss-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Eric Wolf
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 2:15 PM
> > > To: OSGeo Discussions
> > > Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Open File Formats and 
> > > Proprietary Algorithms
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > The MRSID format is a very special case - and perhaps an 
> > > opportunity for a new FOSS file format. MRSID is a lossless, 
> > > fractal-based, multi-scale raster compression format. 
> > > LizardTech has the algorithms to encode and decode MRSID 
> > > locked up in copyrights, and I believe, patents. Even 
> > > companies like ESRI shell out big bucks to LizardTech to be 
> > > able to read and write the MRSID format.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > I guess I missed the context of the discussion. Is the 
> > > government releasing certain data exclusively in this format? 
> > > If so, I think the argument can be made against this 
> > > practice. The different in compression between MRSID and 
> > > gziped TIFFs isn't really that great in this day of cheap 
> > > disks and fat pipes.
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > -Eric
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -=--=---=----=----=---=--=-=--=---=----=---=--=-=-
> > > Eric B. Wolf                    New! 720-334-7734
> > > USGS Geographer
> > > Center of Excellence in GIScience
> > > PhD Student
> > > CU-Boulder - Geography
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > 
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> -- 
> Christopher Schmidt
> Web Developer
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