[OSGeo-Discuss] [Board] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
Even Rouault
even.rouault at spatialys.com
Mon Mar 2 22:13:30 PST 2015
Hi Cameron,
> It is difficult for OSGeo to stop a vendor from promoting their product,
> or promoting a specific lock in strategy.
Of course. That was exactly my point.
>
> But we can:
> * Support the OGC in developing an OGC standard for LiDAR. Once a
> standard is in place, there is a much stronger reason to make use of
> that Open Standard. In particular, many national government agencies
> have policies which promote standards over proprietary interfaces.
With my mostly uninformed eyes in that topic, I don't know if OGC is the most
relevant organization in that matter. It seems that the ASPRS would be a more
natural host as it has already published the spec of the (uncompressed) LAS
format:
http://www.asprs.org/Committee-General/LASer-LAS-File-Format-Exchange-
Activities.html
I'm not sure about the LASzip format however, the compressed one, which is the
one that ESRI has "cloned" into zLAS. I skimmed through http://www.laszip.org/
and couldn't find a reference to something more formal than LGPL code that
implements it ;-)
>
> * Provide a position statement (as has been suggested) which explains
> technically the pros and cons of both the proprietary and open LiDAR
> interface.
There are at least a few persons in the OSGeo community that have direct
interest in LiDAR and are likely reading this thread. Perhaps some discussions
are already happening behind the scene ?
>
> Regarding OGC GeoPackage standard:
> * I would hope that OGC's list of standards supported has a tick for
> read only, and tick for read/write support, so consumers can tell the
> difference.
Currently there's no finalized conformance test suite available for GeoPackage
to test implementations, so there's no official reference implementation or
conformant implementations. I guess the conformance test suite would be
similar to the KML one, in that you submit a file, and it is validated. So it
"proves" that you can write a conformant file. Funnily, read-only
implementations could not get the stamp!
> * It is probably not appropriate for OSGeo as an organisation to
> directly point out ESRI's lack of support for GeoPackage write capability.
I agree. The best marketing, if needed, would be to point at our
implementations that do support write capability.
> * However, it is totally appropriate for individuals and news agencies
> to write about it.
>
> On 2/03/2015 9:37 pm, Even Rouault wrote:
> > Stefan,
> >
> > That a proprietary vendor decides not to implement a standard in its
> > products is mainly its problem (as well as the one of its customers).
> > Especially as they are plenty of FOSS alternatives that implement the
> > standard! So I'd say it is a selling point for FOSS.
> >
> > The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes
> > his *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by
> > FOSS. So it really harms the FOSS community. In that matter, the
> > Geoservices REST API episode would have been less critical as the
> > protocol had been at least opened...
> >
> > Even
> >
> >> Dear all, dear OSGeo Board
> >>
> >> While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your
> >> attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same
> >> relevance:
> >>
> >> In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for >> GeoPackage <<
> >> vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3:
> >> http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages
> >> -in -arcgis/ ("Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS")
> >>
> >> Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only
> >> access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability
> >> (and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ:
> >> http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567
> >> ("What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?")
> >>
> >> I'm still looking for an answer for an "Enhancement Request" but I'm
> >> really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards.
> >>
> >> Yours, S.
> >>
> >> 2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand
<Suchith.Anand at nottingham.ac.uk>:
> >>> Colleagues,
> >>>
> >>> I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open
> >>> Principles in Geo Education that "Geo for All" , OSGeo, ICA all stand
> >>> for and are working together in our common mission of making
> >>> geospatial education and opportunities accessible to all.
> >>>
> >>> "Geo for All" will take a stand on this as it not only affects our
> >>> Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching
> >>> but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We
> >>> will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining
> >>> this.
> >>>
> >>> "Geo for All" started from very humble beginnings and this was only
> >>> possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change
> >>> the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great
> >>> progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in
> >>> developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing
> >>> dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to
> >>> Uruguay.
> >>>
> >>> We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry ,
> >>> governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary
> >>> vendor who was trying to undermine this initiative indirectly from
> >>> the very start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor
> >>> wants to do that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will
> >>> also support Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling
> >>> externally on Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have
> >>> good relations with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of
> >>> friendship is always open. So please let us all work together.
> >>>
> >>> Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is
> >>> increasing (and will keep increasing) even in developing countries
> >>> and with free and open source software, even poor schools in
> >>> developing countries are getting small computer labs established ( i
> >>> know this from my experience in India) .The convergence of all these
> >>> factors with a great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation
> >>> forever.
> >>>
> >>> I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones
> >>> birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity
> >>> to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers
> >>> like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be
> >>> able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality
> >>> education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in
> >>> developed and developing countries).
> >>>
> >>> So why should i care? Because i learned one of the most important
> >>> lessons in my life in my childhood from my grandmother (who though did
> >>> not get the opportunity of "proper education" herself taught me the
> >>> importance of the values of sharing and about "Vasudeva Kudumbam"
> >>> which means "We all belong to one large Universal family" and " Geo
> >>> for All" is for my Universal family and i will do everything in my
> >>> abilities to make sure education opportunities are open to all.
> >>>
> >>> Best wishes,
> >>>
> >>> Suchith
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________________
> >>> From: ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> >>> [ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter
> >>> [cameron.shorter at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 7:37 PM
> >>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); Paul Ramsey; Carl Reed
> >>> Cc: P Kishor; Scott Simmons; ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] The LAS format,
> >>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
> >>>
> >>> What would strengthen a position for use of Open LIDAR interfaces would
> >>> be if such an Open LIDAR interface were introduced into the OGC
> >>> standards program.
> >>>
> >>> Carl,
> >>> I'd be interested to hear you (or someone else from the OGC) explain
> >>> how people should approach initiating an Open LIDAR standard, and how
> >>> much effort / cost would be required to do so.
> >>>
> >>> The OSGeo community can then assess whether there is sufficient
> >>> motivation to initiate such development of a standard.
> >>>
> >>> Patrick,
> >>> For an Open Letter from OSGeo, it would be a very powerful statement if
> >>> we can list a number of influential organisations who will commit to
> >>> developing an open, interoperable standard. (This can be a section of
> >>> the open letter with signatures).
> >>>
> >>> On 2/03/2015 4:57 am, Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) wrote:
> >>>> Paul,
> >>>> I would care to refine the 'yawn' context of 'doing the right thing,'
> >>>> that of standing up to actions that directly contravene an
> >>>> organization's 'open exchange' mission. This would seem the kind of
> >>>> *engaged integrity* quite apart from one deserving a yawn. If your
> >>>> kids do something directly contrary to what the family needs for a
> >>>> healthy exchange of information, if a yawn is the response, there are
> >>>> even more serious issues at stake. -Patrick
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Paul Ramsey [mailto:pramsey at cleverelephant.ca]
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 9:32 AM
> >>>> To: Carl Reed
> >>>> Cc: Cameron Shorter; P Kishor; Suchith Anand; Scott Simmons; OSGeo
> >>>> Discussions; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); OSGeo-Board;
> >>>> ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]
> >>>> [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by
> >>>> ESRI
> >>>>
> >>>> Carl,
> >>>>
> >>>> No, it doesn't really clarify it. I think what people are wondering is
> >>>> "does OGC have a default mission and position that closed formats are
> >>>> bad for the industry and would it publicly admonish a member who took
> >>>> actions that ran counter to that position". I assume that, as a
> >>>> "member driven organization" whose membership includes the offender,
> >>>> the OGC will not be standing up and publicly saying "this company is
> >>>> contravening the spirit of our organization and mission, that it is
> >>>> supposedly supportive of".
> >>>>
> >>>> Am I incorrect?
> >>>>
> >>>> WRT to OSGeo, I think that black letter cases like this come along
> >>>> infrequently enough that it would not be at all inappropriate for
> >>>> OSGeo to publicly state what is wrong with the direction being taken
> >>>> in the world of LAS formats. The only trouble is, it's exactly what
> >>>> everyone expects we would do, and therefore will be greeted with a
> >>>> collective yawn. But it is the right thing, so we should still do it.
> >>>>
> >>>> ATB,
> >>>>
> >>>> P.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Carl Reed <creed at opengeospatial.org>
> >
> > wrote:
> >>>>> All -
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The OGC is not currently involved in activities related to defining
> >>>>> or maintaining LIDAR specific modeling and related encoding
> >>>>> standards. Any work the OGC has been doing WRT LIDAR is within the
> >>>>> context of processing, visualization, and analytics. Obviously,
> >>>>> existing OGC standards such as WCS and GMLJP2 can be used to encode
> >>>>> and share small, processed LIDAR data sets. Feel free to check OGC
> >>>>> email archives, project pages, and so forth for documentation on any
> >>>>> ongoing discussions in the OGC related to LIDAR.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.opengeospatial.org/pub/www/ows9/innovations.html : The
> >>>>> thread participants looked at NITF, LIDAR, and DAP/OPeNDAP, and
> >>>>> investigated their re-implementation in an OWS environment with a
> >>>>> focus on the Web.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> or
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://koenigstuhl.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/publications/bonn/conferenc
> >>>>> e /LanigGeoinformatik09.pdf
> >>>>>
> >>>>> for examples.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hope this clarifies the current OGC position.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Carl
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Suchith Anand
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 4:20 AM
> >>>>> To: Cameron Shorter ; P Kishor ; Suchith Anand
> >>>>> Cc: discuss at lists.osgeo.org ; Hogan, Patrick(ARC-PX) ;
> >>>>> board at lists.osgeo.org ; ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format,
> >>>>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Cameron,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous
> >>>>> Geoservices REST API issues and discussions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much
> >>>>> information as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the
> >>>>> Geoservices REST API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the
> >>>>> community and OSGeo Board and we all can look into this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Anyone from OGC willing to help with this?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole
> >>>>> Geo community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be
> >>>>> decent enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in
> >>>>> the future.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best wishes,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Suchith
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ________________________________________
> >>>>> From: Cameron Shorter [cameron.shorter at gmail.com]
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM
> >>>>> To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand
> >>>>> Cc: discuss at lists.osgeo.org; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
> >>>>> board at lists.osgeo.org; ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the
> >>>>> ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Patrick, others,
> >>>>> OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in
> >>>>> stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here:
> >>>>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a
> >>>>> vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should
> >>>>> consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?) 1. Describe the issue. (Is
> >>>>> there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?) 2.
> >>>>> Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the
> >>>>> other, on both a technical and commercial point of view.
> >>>>> 3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
> >>>>> 4. If needed, collect signatures.
> >>>>> 5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
> >>>>> Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for
> >>>>> scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand
> >>>>> <Suchith.Anand at nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:Suchith.Anand at nottingham.ac.uk
> >>>>> > wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Patrick,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board
> >>>>> need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from
> >>>>> the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be
> >>>>> discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the
> >>>>> needed support for this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board
> >>>>> meeting's agenda items. Thanks.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best wishes,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Suchith
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ________________________________________
> >>>>> From:
> >>>>> ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
> >>>>> l ists.osgeo.org>
> >>>>> [ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces
> >>>>> @ lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer
> >>>>> [lfi at ign.ku.dk<mailto:lfi at ign.ku.dk>]
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
> >>>>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
> >>>>> ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ
> >>>>> clone” by ESRI
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +1
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lene Fischer
> >>>>> Associate Professor
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management University
> >>>>> of Copenhagen
> >>>>>
> >>>>> MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084>
> >>>>> lfi at ign.ku.dk<mailto:lfi at ign.ku.dk><mailto:lfi at ign.ku.dk<mailto:lfi at i
> >>>>> g n.ku.dk>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [cid:image001.gif at 01D052C3.B23B1060]
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Fra:
> >>>>> ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
> >>>>> l ists.osgeo.org>
> >>>>> [mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-
> >>>>> b ounces at lists.osgeo.org>]
> >>>>> På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
> >>>>> Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
> >>>>> Til:
> >>>>> ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org>
> >>>>> Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
> >>>>> by ESRI
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dear OSGEO,
> >>>>> For what our good name is worth. . .
> >>>>> Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard
> >>>>> for a data format?
> >>>>> Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and
> >>>>> collective response encouraged.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values?
> >>>>> I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are
> >>>>> created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
> >>>>> unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the
> >>>>> pursuit of Openness].”
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
> >>>>> http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clo
> >>>>> n e/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [First paragraph]
> >>>>> We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another
> >>>>> proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails,
> >>>>> retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky
> >>>>> tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are
> >>>>> being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have
> >>>>> enjoyed for many years.
> >>>>> [cid:image002.jpg at 01D052C3.B23B1060]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks much,
> >>>>> -Patrick
> >>>>> Project Manager
> >>>>> NASA World Wind
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Puneet Kishor
> >>>>> Manager, Science and Data Policy
> >>>>> Creative Commons
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Discuss mailing list
> >>>>> Discuss at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:Discuss at lists.osgeo.org>
> >>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Cameron Shorter,
> >>>>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
> >>>>> LISAsoft
> >>>>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
> >>>>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
> >>>>>
> >>>>> P +61 2 9009 5000, W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>, F
> >>>>> +61 2
> >>>>> 9009 5099
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
> >>>>> and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
> >>>>> message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete
> >>>>> it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
> >>>>> message or in any attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the
> >>>>> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
> >>>>> University of Nottingham.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
> >>>>> attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
> >>>>> computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
> >>>>> communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
> >>>>> permitted by UK legislation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Board mailing list
> >>>>> Board at lists.osgeo.org
> >>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Board mailing list
> >>>>> Board at lists.osgeo.org
> >>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Cameron Shorter,
> >>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
> >>> LISAsoft
> >>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
> >>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
> >>>
> >>> P +61 2 9009 5000, W www.lisasoft.com, F +61 2 9009 5099
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> ica-osgeo-labs mailing list
> >>> ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org
> >>> http://lists.osgeo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ica-osgeo-labs
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
> >>> and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
> >>> message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.
> >>>
> >>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
> >>> message or in any attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the
> >>> author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
> >>> University of Nottingham.
> >>>
> >>> This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
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> >>> computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
> >>> communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
> >>> permitted by UK legislation.
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Discuss mailing list
> >>> Discuss at lists.osgeo.org
> >>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Discuss mailing list
> >> Discuss at lists.osgeo.org
> >> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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