[OSGeo-Discuss] OSGeo/LocationTech relationship
Andrea Ross
andrea.ross at eclipse.org
Sun Nov 15 17:09:48 PST 2015
Jeff,
For what it's worth, I think it's great you shared your vision. If you
don't mind me saying so, it is important and belongs it a dedicated
thread IMHO.
You commented on why was LocationTech created rather than within doing
what it does more tightly within OSGeo. This is important for people to
understand. In my opinion, a very important reason is that in 2011, when
OSGeo just fired its executive director and set a very clear direction
to be a low-capital organization, it was clear that the kinds of things
that LocationTech does wouldn't be practical at OSGeo. Hiring a bunch of
staff to perform services for the ecosystem wasn't practical. It still
may not be today. The governance would have to fundamentally change to
make this doable. Culturally it might be hard too, which is perhaps part
of why this conversation is taking place.
At the time, it was felt LocationTech was the fastest/easiest/best path
to fill the gaps. At the time, it was felt careful stewardship could
avoid any harm. We are now 3 years in, and with much care taken all
along, I'm pretty sure no harm has yet befallen OSGeo because of
LocationTech. And in those 3 years, much benefit has arisen out of
LocationTech, including many benefits to OSGeo projects & initiatives.
Even financial benefits.
Many will remember that there were discussions with the OSGeo board &
anyone who was interested before LocationTech was founded, just as it
was founded, and many since. So many of the people involved were
founders of OSGeo, charter members, board members, and active
participants. They continue to be active today. This is why the
portrayal of them as outsiders and invaders is so misleading and rather
unfair.
Jeff, you mention your vision for OSGeo is to be the community for open
source geospatial everywhere and anywhere. In an open source community,
people contributing effort to do work that needs doing is a very good
thing. There's a box around GeoForAll, and that is seen as positive
thing. Why is it suddenly a bad thing when work is being done at a place
with a box around it called LocationTech? That box has talented staff
who specialize in organizing open source (inc. geospatial too)
conferences for a living. Why not make good use of them for the benefit
of the community and ecosystem? This is what this thread was all about.
Kind regards,
Andrea
On 15/11/15 21:18, Jeff McKenna wrote:
> Hi Andrea,
>
> I have no doubt that you mean well. I hope that maybe seeing my
> vision for OSGeo, will help explain myself. I feel that OSGeo and
> LocationTech are in fact different, especially in their visions (which
> would likely be why LocationTech was formed initially, I imagine there
> was a good reason not to help OSGeo grow, not to dedicate that time to
> instead help change OSGeo for the better). I realize that it is too
> late to question why we now have 2 foundations. I would like to work
> together, but for OSGeo to have its own event, FOSS4G. I would like
> to discuss LocationTech being more involved in the global FOSS4G, such
> as through sponsorship or special sessions. I would like to discuss
> OSGeo bring more involved in LocationTech, and am open to your ideas how.
>
> I hope taking all of today (it took me most of today to compile those
> words, which I made many mistakes in ha) helps you see more into my
> vision, and explains who I am and where I want to go. I am very ok
> with people disagreeing with it. I took a leadership training course
> for a year (in 2011), and this made me pull out my old Harvard
> Business journal print-outs ha, it was actually a good reason to
> review all of this. I also know that a vision does not always work,
> and could be rejected by the OSGeo community at large. I am,
> absolutely putting all of me on the line.
>
> I am prepared for that as well. Wow, isn't this fun? :)
>
> Talk soon,
>
> -jeff
>
>
>
> On 2015-11-15 1:35 PM, Andrea Ross wrote:
>> Jeff,
>>
>> Again, you make statements like you have below about me/LocationTech
>> smoothly courting/calculated/etc going after OSGeo's only source of
>> revenue. Perhaps you would like to present your evidence for making such
>> negative statements?
>>
>> Bear in mind that the ample evidence to the contrary is public. Dave &
>> Robert have told their stories about how & why they LocationTech as a
>> conference organizer for their 2017 bids. Michael Terner shared his
>> story too. There was nothing untoward involved, and everything has been
>> talked about publicly.
>>
>> The budget details for those bids are public too and as generous as a
>> conservative budget allows. The payment is very much in line with the
>> best payments ever received from a FOSS4G, and OSGeo is not on the hook
>> for a loss should one occur.
>>
>> Making such assertions with no evidence to back them up, against much
>> evidence to the contrary is unfounded and very unprofessional.
>>
>> The FAQ we published
>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/15x1Q3J9OPM95jEkeZhYlU0xB5uO9V9NCOI28g5B_Yqc/edit>
>>
>> publicly makes the motives very clear. People like myself, Dave
>> McIlhagga, Jody Garnett, and many others have been deeply involved in
>> OSGeo & FOSS4G since the beginning in many capacities. (so were the
>> Founders of LocationTech for what that's worth) All of what we have done
>> is public record. We never left the community. We care about FOSS4G and
>> care how it is run. We are valued members of the FOSS4G & OSGeo
>> communities, have equal right to participate, and not the invading
>> outsiders you are attempting to portray us as.
>>
>> Again, you imply something untoward regarding why LocationTech was
>> founded and exists. It was created & exists to fill a gap. And 3 years
>> on it is doing a pretty good job of that. As I have said, I am not aware
>> of any harm to OSGeo that has come from LocationTech. There was much
>> goodness specified clearly in the FAQ stating plainly how LocationTech
>> has helped OSGeo. You are welcome to share your evidence to the
>> contrary.
>>
>> As just one more example we didn't put in the FAQ, after a very
>> successful FOSS4G NA 2015, $6K USD was paid to OSGeo from LocationTech
>> to help support it. The money was provided with no strings attached for
>> OSGeo to spend how it see's fit.
>>
>> Collaboration happens between OSGeo & LocationTech every day without
>> fuss. People shuffle back and forth across the imaginary border without
>> even thinking about it. It is one ecosystem.
>>
>> I wish you'd see & acknowledge the goodness and positive things from
>> LocationTech. At the very least, without any evidence of anything
>> negative, you should really stop.
>>
>> Andrea
>>
>> On 13/11/15 14:24, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>>> Hi Andrea,
>>>
>>> You seem to value the OSGeo community so much, so much in fact that
>>> you would smoothly court all 3 of our bidders for OSGeo's only source
>>> of revenue and publicity all year, our beloved global FOSS4G event.
>>> It is true that it is "ridiculous", from an organization that
>>> (apparently formerly) focused on commerce, to ask OSGeo to pay you
>>> (90,000 USD), to take control of OSGeo's only event (worth 1,000,000
>>> USD), and then think that this is a fine since you offer (my answer: a
>>> polite no thank you) of handling losses for OSGeo's FOSS4G event, in
>>> maybe one of the strongest regions for attendees in the world? If we
>>> are speaking of commerce, this doesn't make sense.
>>>
>>> I think Maxi said it well, that we all are trying to understand your
>>> motives here. How about an MoU together, exchange of official
>>> letters, big press release, creating a working group of half
>>> LocationTech and half OSGeo board members, an exchange of talks at
>>> each others events, become the sustaining sponsor of OSGeo; instead,
>>> here we are.
>>>
>>> If you value the OSGeo community so much, why would you create a
>>> separate foundation with the exact same goals, and then later come
>>> back to the other foundation saying "no, we love you. Give us the
>>> right to run your event". Ha, pardon?
>>>
>>> -jeff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2015-11-12 7:35 PM, Andrea Ross wrote:
>>>> Jeff,
>>>>
>>>> It is really hard to discuss this topic because you make stuff up. The
>>>> concerns stem from the fantasy rather than reality.
>>>>
>>>> The FAQ produced recently
>>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/15x1Q3J9OPM95jEkeZhYlU0xB5uO9V9NCOI28g5B_Yqc/edit?usp=drive_web>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> does a pretty good job covering the situation.
>>>>
>>>> In 3 years, so far as I know, absolutely no harm has come to OSGeo
>>>> as a
>>>> result of LocationTech, and certainly not from any
>>>> official/intentional
>>>> actions. On the contrary, there's a nice body of ever growing
>>>> benefits.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding your new claims:
>>>>
>>>> * The press releases & charter for LocationTech have not changed.
>>>> They're all still up where they always were and haven't been
>>>> modified. (seriously?!)
>>>> * LocationTech & OSGeo have had formal relations for some time as
>>>> Jody
>>>> notes. There is all kinds of collaboration happening frequently
>>>> and
>>>> people are fine with it.
>>>> * We gave many examples in the FAQ about LocationTech helping OSGeo.
>>>> I'm not even sure that (positive list) was calculated
>>>> necessarily as
>>>> much as things that arise matter of course from the things the
>>>> group
>>>> does.
>>>> * The evidence is for all to see in the bid proposals, LocationTech
>>>> has offered to cover losses and promising payments on par with the
>>>> best payments from past FOSS4G's. The numbers are based on a
>>>> conservative budget. When you also factor that LocationTech has
>>>> sponsored in which money has flowed to OSGeo, your claims
>>>> LocationTech is setting sights on OSGeo income are even more
>>>> ridiculous.
>>>> * As Jody & others have noted, the Tour is something that was
>>>> born out
>>>> of LocationTech. It is inclusive to any who want to
>>>> participate. The
>>>> FAQ covers why LocationTech members & projects care about FOSS4G,
>>>> and it's very reasonable.
>>>>
>>>> It's worth saying that people involved with LocationTech have also
>>>> been
>>>> involved with OSGeo for some time. Your efforts to portray them as
>>>> outsiders is bogus. They are as welcome as anyone else to participate.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure what else to say. It's such shame to have this be
>>>> needlessly misrepresented.
>>>>
>>>> Andrea
>>>>
>>>> On 12/11/15 21:58, Jeff McKenna wrote:
>>>>> Hi Cameron,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am also glad to speak of this publicly, this is a very important
>>>>> topic.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have been thinking more and more about Rob's response (thank you so
>>>>> much Rob for taking the time to speak with me on that). I will speak
>>>>> honestly here again, and I don't mean to offend:
>>>>>
>>>>> I am now left with a realization that, what I always thought of
>>>>> LocationTech as created to help commercially-friendly geospatial
>>>>> software, is wrong. I always just assumed that they filled a nice
>>>>> hole in the equation, by focusing on business needs. As was pointed
>>>>> out to me today, their goals now are in fact the exact same as
>>>>> OSGeo's. In fact, I have to really dig now for the LocationTech's
>>>>> former tagline of "commercially-friendly.." on their website, but I
>>>>> found the initial press releases for LocationTech and there it is in
>>>>> the second sentence, and then entire paragraphs on that goal. Did
>>>>> something change there that I missed?
>>>>>
>>>>> So now, yes, I am confused.
>>>>>
>>>>> And no wonder that, from those initial 2012/2013 press releases from
>>>>> LocationTech, fast forward to 2015 and they are contacting each of
>>>>> our
>>>>> 3 bidding teams for FOSS4G 2017, I'm left with a sense of surprise
>>>>> and
>>>>> shock. The overlap exists, we are the same foundation, and, to make
>>>>> matters more pressing, LocationTech has politely declined any
>>>>> interest
>>>>> in creating their own global event for their community, and set their
>>>>> sights on OSGeo's only real source of revenue and global publicity,
>>>>> our yearly FOSS4G event. Now the pressure is on, as this 2017
>>>>> discussion involves huge money, finances, brands, people's jobs, two
>>>>> communities, and our beloved FOSS4G event that we have painfully
>>>>> built
>>>>> to be a global brand. And yes passions are flowing, strong words of
>>>>> "fear", "bullying", "muck" are being dropped, and I have no doubt
>>>>> someone soon will say "inclusive" or "exclusive", and then "code of
>>>>> conduct", oh let's not forget "trademark" and even "lawyer" (to be
>>>>> honest, in the past week I've heard each of these words about this
>>>>> topic). It's all an absolute mess, if you ask my opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>> My vision is to work with foundations and organizations all around
>>>>> the
>>>>> world, locally or globally. OSGeo has done a great job on this,
>>>>> through our (admittedly slow process for some people) of MoUs, and
>>>>> building those relationships through designated committees or special
>>>>> sessions at FOSS4G events.
>>>>>
>>>>> This sudden thrust of LocationTech, by contacting each of our 3
>>>>> bidders for 2017, is very calculated on their side, but on OSGeo's
>>>>> side, this is a hard pill to swallow so fast.
>>>>>
>>>>> I actually don't think it is OSGeo that should be the ones talking
>>>>> now. We haven't changed, we have always put on FOSS4G each year,
>>>>> moving around the globe. We put community first and foremost, our
>>>>> community is very strong. I think our community is what attracts
>>>>> LocationTech to OSGeo, why they strategically contacted each 2017
>>>>> bidders, but I'd love to hear it from their mouths.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I don't believe it is OSGeo that should be the ones explaining
>>>>> ourselves now. I think this is the time for LocationTech to explain
>>>>> their vision, how it has changed over the years, and how it sees
>>>>> itself in the ecosystem, because OSGeo has been around now a long
>>>>> time
>>>>> and their is no confusion about OSGeo.
>>>>>
>>>>> In regards to the current situation, I wish we could start with an
>>>>> MoU, work slowly on building a relationship, do not strategically
>>>>> contact bidders or groups on either side, but work together on
>>>>> building this ecosystem - maybe offering each other a "topic talk"
>>>>> extended session at each of our events, maybe discussing becoming a
>>>>> sustaining sponsor of each other's foundation, maybe having a shared
>>>>> "working group" on this involving both LocationTech and OSGeo board
>>>>> members.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've done a lot of writing the last couple of days. I hope this at
>>>>> least helps explain what is on my mind.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, as some privately enjoy writing to me and saying I am wrong, well
>>>>> yes, I am often wrong, but at least I am speaking publicly, and
>>>>> trying
>>>>> so hard always to make sure that OSGeo and FOSS4G are properly
>>>>> represented.
>>>>>
>>>>> -jeff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2015-11-12 4:04 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Jeff, Venka, Jody, Rob,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for initiating this discussion and starting to put ideas out
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> public discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff, Venka, I get the impression from your emails that you are
>>>>>> concerned that LocationTech might "steal" community mind-share,
>>>>>> and in
>>>>>> particular take control of key OSGeo tasks such as FOSS4G and in the
>>>>>> process change focus of FOSS4G into a more commercial event, which
>>>>>> increases prices, and looses core community driven focus. Am I
>>>>>> right? Or
>>>>>> could you please clarify.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the record, at the time I was disappointed at the time that
>>>>>> Location
>>>>>> Tech was created, and the functionality of Location Tech didn't get
>>>>>> created under the umbrella of OSGeo. However both organisations
>>>>>> exist
>>>>>> now, and I can see that in moving forward that both organisations
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> exist successfully together and complement each other. (+1 to Rob's
>>>>>> comments).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A few years back, when both Jeff and I were on the board, we
>>>>>> co-authored
>>>>>> "Board Priorities" [1]. (Ok, I did a lot of writing, but the
>>>>>> board did
>>>>>> contribute and sign off on it). Prior boards have similarly
>>>>>> outlined
>>>>>> OSGeo's priorities which have been embedded in our official
>>>>>> documents.
>>>>>> The "Board Priorities" include focus on OSGeo acting as a "low
>>>>>> capital,
>>>>>> volunteer focused organisation", and acknowledge that a the role of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> "high capital" business model is better accomplished by
>>>>>> LocationTech.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff, Venka, Jody and others on the board, what is your vision for
>>>>>> OSGeo's future direction, and in particular, what is your vision
>>>>>> for a
>>>>>> future relationship with Location Tech? Should OSGeo revise our
>>>>>> focus
>>>>>> and goals? It might help to start by being specific. What should
>>>>>> OSGeo
>>>>>> take responsibility for? What should Location Tech take
>>>>>> responsibility
>>>>>> for? Are the organisations appropriately structured and resourced to
>>>>>> take on that responsibility? If not, what should change to make that
>>>>>> happen?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With regards to private (and threatening emails), I suggest replying
>>>>>> with something like:
>>>>>> "Thanks for your comments, you have some valid concerns. I'd like to
>>>>>> respond to your suggestions publicly so others can join in and we
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> deal with your suggestions appropriately. Is it ok if I do so?"
>>>>>> If you don't get the ok, don't deal with the suggestion. But I
>>>>>> suggest
>>>>>> refrain from implication of bullying as it implies that
>>>>>> LocationTech is
>>>>>> playing dirty tactics, which reflects badly on LocationTech and
>>>>>> OSGeo as
>>>>>> it suggests that the two organisations are unable to resolve issues
>>>>>> professionally. (I'm hoping that mentioned "bullying" is just a
>>>>>> case of
>>>>>> some people getting a bit more passionate that maybe they should).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Warm regards, Cameron
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Board_of_Directors#Board_Priorities
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13/11/2015 3:53 am, Rob Emanuele wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are right, commercial-friendliness certainly does play a
>>>>>>> part in
>>>>>>> LocationTech. The way I've seen that enacted is by the use of the
>>>>>>> Eclipse Foundation's legal department to ensure that the projects
>>>>>>> which are supported by LocationTech are declared by a legal team
>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>> free of proprietary or wrongly-licensed code. In this way,
>>>>>>> commercial
>>>>>>> entities can use the projects with some assurance that they will
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> be sued down the line for code that was not actually open in the
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>> they thought it was.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, there is a steering committee that makes decisions about how
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> budget will be used. The budget mainly consists of member company's
>>>>>>> dues. The members of the steering committee are decided by
>>>>>>> membership
>>>>>>> level (large membership gets representation on the steering
>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>> as well as a lower-membership level elected committee. There is
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> representation by the developers, who vote independently of any
>>>>>>> company and are there to represent the committers on the
>>>>>>> project. For
>>>>>>> more information, you can read through some links here:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.locationtech.org/charter
>>>>>>> https://www.locationtech.org/election2015
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In practice, as a maintainer of an open source project and
>>>>>>> developer,
>>>>>>> what LocationTech has meant to me is support for my project in ways
>>>>>>> that are not centered around business. To me it's been a place
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>> I've gotten to collaborate with similar open source projects and
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> my project be promoted through events and other channels; for
>>>>>>> instance
>>>>>>> I participate in Google Summer of Code and Facebook Open Academy
>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>> mentor through the Eclipse Foundation. Perhaps these are needs that
>>>>>>> can also be served by OSGeo, but they have in practice been met by
>>>>>>> LocationTech. From my perspective as a project lead and open source
>>>>>>> developer, that there are multiple channels that can potentially
>>>>>>> support me and my project is a great thing and signs of a healthy
>>>>>>> domain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I did not start LocationTech. So for me it's not a question of, why
>>>>>>> should LocationTech be created when there is already OSGeo;
>>>>>>> LocationTech already exists, and I don't think it's up to me to
>>>>>>> question it's existence. Nor do I think it's a useful exercise to
>>>>>>> question the existence of something that clearly has support and is
>>>>>>> supporting others. I can only decide which organizations I
>>>>>>> believe in
>>>>>>> and support, and what I can get out of those organizations as
>>>>>>> far as
>>>>>>> them supporting me. So on a personal level, my thoughts are that
>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>> OSGeo and LocationTech are good organizations. I'd like to find
>>>>>>> ways
>>>>>>> to support both organizations, and find ways both organizations can
>>>>>>> support me and my project.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On a more general level, I'm against centralization. Having
>>>>>>> diversity
>>>>>>> in governance structures, funding models and support channels is a
>>>>>>> good thing, and I don't want there to be only one "true"
>>>>>>> organization
>>>>>>> that I can look to for support. However, like I mentioned, the
>>>>>>> ideal
>>>>>>> would be that those organizations could figure out how to use their
>>>>>>> difference skill sets to work together on making the community as a
>>>>>>> whole move forward. And that is what I am hoping OSGeo and
>>>>>>> LocationTech can do (as well as any other related organizations).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jody did a talk at FOSS4G NA 2015 on some of the differences
>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>> LocationTech and OSGeo, I recommend it:
>>>>>>> https://youtu.be/sdpEa6XdQEo
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Jeff McKenna
>>>>>>> <jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Rob,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for your very thoughtful response. You summarize the
>>>>>>> situation very well. I think talking openly like this on this
>>>>>>> topic, is the only way to make this all work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It sounds like I am wrong about LocationTech's goals; at the
>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>> time then, if that is the case, that LocationTech is not about
>>>>>>> commerce (doesn't "commercially friendly" encourage business
>>>>>>> interest?), then what was the need to create a separate new
>>>>>>> foundation, also focused on growing Open Source geospatial
>>>>>>> software?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope we can speak openly here Rob, I do not mean any
>>>>>>> disrespect
>>>>>>> to you personally or to LocationTech (some take it personal).
>>>>>>> Please share here the reasons you see to have 2 foundations
>>>>>>> focused on the same goal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -jeff
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2015-11-12 11:37 AM, Rob Emanuele wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sorry to hear you are being bullied in private
>>>>>>> messages.
>>>>>>> It is
>>>>>>> perhaps best to bring in the Code of Conduct committee to
>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>> handle
>>>>>>> this; direct threats and private bulling tactics seem in
>>>>>>> violation with
>>>>>>> the CoC, and there should be steps taken to ensure that our
>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>> doesn't have bulling in our midst that goes unaddressed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm disappointed that you take LocationTech's core goal as
>>>>>>> "to
>>>>>>> promote
>>>>>>> business and give those businesses a stage". Your point of
>>>>>>> view and
>>>>>>> behavior on the lists makes more sense knowing that,
>>>>>>> though;
>>>>>>> if you
>>>>>>> believe that LocationTech is really about promoting the
>>>>>>> businesses, and
>>>>>>> not the greater community, then having LocationTech
>>>>>>> involved
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> FOSS4G conferences would diminish the non-business
>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>> members'
>>>>>>> role in the conference, which would be a Bad thing.
>>>>>>> However,
>>>>>>> as a member
>>>>>>> of the LocationTech PMC and someone who was/is involved in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> FOSS4G NA
>>>>>>> 2015 and FOSS4G NA 2016 process, as well as someone
>>>>>>> involved
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> FOSS4G 2017 Philadelphia bid, I want to assure you that is
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> the case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is real focus and real work being done at
>>>>>>> LocationTech
>>>>>>> to help the
>>>>>>> community of developers and users of FOSS4G. In this
>>>>>>> instance
>>>>>>> I'm using
>>>>>>> FOSS4G for what the acronym actually means, Free and Open
>>>>>>> Source
>>>>>>> Software for Geospatial, not referring to the conference
>>>>>>> that has
>>>>>>> captured that name. Both LocationTech and OSGeo exist to
>>>>>>> support FOSS4G,
>>>>>>> and the greater community (greater then both of those
>>>>>>> organizations)
>>>>>>> that use and develop FOSS4G. There are differences in the
>>>>>>> organizations
>>>>>>> for sure, and I think highlighting those differences and
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>> understanding how they serve the community in different
>>>>>>> ways is
>>>>>>> important. The ideal scenario that I see is that both
>>>>>>> organizations
>>>>>>> would use those differences to collaborate and have a
>>>>>>> sum-greater-than-it's-parts type of support system for
>>>>>>> FOSS4G.
>>>>>>> Instead,
>>>>>>> we have a situation where there's distrust, finger
>>>>>>> pointing,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> political "power plays" against each other. We have the
>>>>>>> president of one
>>>>>>> of the organizations characterizing the core goal of the
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> organization in a dangerously wrong way. We have decisions
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> discussions about a million dollar revenue generating
>>>>>>> conference focused
>>>>>>> on that million dollars, rather then how to ensure that
>>>>>>> conference does
>>>>>>> the best job possible at supporting and pushing forward the
>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>> We have the precious resource that is the energy of
>>>>>>> volunteers
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> spent on political infighting rather than on collaboration
>>>>>>> towards
>>>>>>> serving the community. I'm not sure the best path
>>>>>>> forward for
>>>>>>> this, but
>>>>>>> I want to declare that the situation as I see it is bad
>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>> community, collaboration between OSGeo and LocationTech
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> be good
>>>>>>> for the community, and I hope as a whole we can move
>>>>>>> towards
>>>>>>> that better
>>>>>>> future.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hear your concerns for the price of the FOSS4G NA
>>>>>>> tickets,
>>>>>>> though I'll
>>>>>>> point out to people who are following along that it's
>>>>>>> not as
>>>>>>> simple as a
>>>>>>> flat $1000 dollar rate. I encourage you to look at the
>>>>>>> registration
>>>>>>> pricing breakdown when it's published for FOSS4G NA
>>>>>>> 2016, be
>>>>>>> sure to
>>>>>>> apply for a non-corporate pass if you will not be
>>>>>>> reimbursed
>>>>>>> by a
>>>>>>> company, and to apply for a scholarship if the cost is
>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>> too high.
>>>>>>> Also, if you are giving a talk, registration is free, so
>>>>>>> please submit!
>>>>>>> The Call For Proposals is now open
>>>>>>> (<https://2016.foss4g-na.org/cfp>https://2016.foss4g-na.org/cfp).
>>>>>>> Jeff, your presence was missed at FOSS4G NA 2015 and I hope
>>>>>>> that you can
>>>>>>> come to Raleigh for FOSS4G NA 2016.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:40 AM, Jeff McKenna
>>>>>>> <jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com>
>>>>>>> <mailto:jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2015-11-12 7:01 AM, Jody Garnett wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have gotten a number of private emails expressing
>>>>>>> concerns about
>>>>>>> LocationTech being involved in several of the
>>>>>>> foss4g
>>>>>>> bids. I
>>>>>>> guess I had
>>>>>>> the opposite concern last year when there was the
>>>>>>> joint OSGeo /
>>>>>>> LocationTech foss4gna conference. I was kind of
>>>>>>> embarrassed our
>>>>>>> behavior
>>>>>>> as a community - would prefer to see us as
>>>>>>> welcoming
>>>>>>> and supportive
>>>>>>> (especially as we had a first time organizer that
>>>>>>> could use our
>>>>>>> support).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Jody,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am very glad that you brought this up publicly.
>>>>>>> Lately I
>>>>>>> too have
>>>>>>> received very disturbing direct emails, containing
>>>>>>> threats
>>>>>>> of "if
>>>>>>> this happens you watch" "karma you watch yourself"
>>>>>>> "if we
>>>>>>> lose you
>>>>>>> watch out" and direct bullying tactics, for speaking my
>>>>>>> mind on this
>>>>>>> issue. The same people sending these threats will not
>>>>>>> speak
>>>>>>> publicly on this, so I have asked them to stop
>>>>>>> sending me
>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> messages, but the messages continue, so I have stopped
>>>>>>> answering
>>>>>>> them. These are "power-play" emails sent directly
>>>>>>> to me,
>>>>>>> but I will
>>>>>>> tell them here publicly, bullying me will not stop me
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> speaking
>>>>>>> openly about OSGeo's one event all year, the global
>>>>>>> FOSS4G. (for
>>>>>>> those not following the 2017 conference discussions,
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> would have
>>>>>>> to read a long thread to get caught up
>>>>>>> http://osgeo-org.1560.x6.nabble.com/Call-to-discuss-FOSS4G-2017-proposals-prior-to-voting-td5234235.html).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As someone just wrote last night on another list,
>>>>>>> likely
>>>>>>> there would
>>>>>>> be no one else that has attended more FOSS4G events,
>>>>>>> regional,
>>>>>>> global, anything, than myself. I make a point of
>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>> a FOSS4G
>>>>>>> event, to help grow the local community, no matter what
>>>>>>> size of the
>>>>>>> event or where it is. Lately in my FOSS4G travels I
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> noticed a
>>>>>>> return to our FOSS4G roots, where the popular events
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> very low
>>>>>>> cost, aimed at developers, users, students,
>>>>>>> researchers,
>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>> smaller companies trying to make a living (a great
>>>>>>> recent
>>>>>>> example is
>>>>>>> the FOSS4G-Como event this past July). Getting back to
>>>>>>> the topic of
>>>>>>> your message: I too have been embarrassed by recent
>>>>>>> FOSS4G-NorthAmerica events; I was shocked to see the
>>>>>>> 1,000 USD
>>>>>>> registration fee there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I was not too upset, because no one is traveling
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> small
>>>>>>> FOSS4Gs like me to see the difference, and I didn't see
>>>>>>> complaints
>>>>>>> voiced from the local NorthAmerican community.
>>>>>>> LocationTech
>>>>>>> involved in FOSS4G-NA is a good thing, to promote
>>>>>>> business
>>>>>>> and give
>>>>>>> those businesses a stage; the core goal of
>>>>>>> LocationTech.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However now we are in the process for deciding the
>>>>>>> global
>>>>>>> FOSS4G
>>>>>>> event for 2017, OSGeo's flagship event, attended by the
>>>>>>> international community, and we must be very careful.
>>>>>>> Working with
>>>>>>> foundations is good (hence all of OSGeo's great MoUs),
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> I'll use
>>>>>>> the upcoming example that the 2016 team is considering,
>>>>>>> giving
>>>>>>> LocationTech a 90 minute slot in the program for their
>>>>>>> projects (and
>>>>>>> the same for OSGeo, UN, likely OGC, and other
>>>>>>> organizations). This
>>>>>>> is a wonderful way for OSGeo's FOSS4G event to involve
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> organizations. I hope that LocationTech will also give
>>>>>>> OSGeo a 90
>>>>>>> minute slot in their big conference someday as well;
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>> exactly what I see as best-case scenario.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand, not signing an MoU, and then just
>>>>>>> contacting all
>>>>>>> of our 2017 bidders, is quite a different method to get
>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>> table. Instead of a long-standing MoU agreement that
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> foster
>>>>>>> the relationship throughout the years, as we have with
>>>>>>> so many
>>>>>>> organizations, we are faced with a decision now that
>>>>>>> involves both
>>>>>>> foundations and 1,000,000 USD (the annual FOSS4G event
>>>>>>> generates a
>>>>>>> lot of revenue, making this very attractive to
>>>>>>> professional
>>>>>>> conference companies all over the world, I was phoned
>>>>>>> yesterday by
>>>>>>> one from Europe, for example). The money is there,
>>>>>>> huge
>>>>>>> money, and
>>>>>>> huge exposure for these companies. And their jobs
>>>>>>> are on
>>>>>>> the line,
>>>>>>> in their minds. Hence this situation we are forced to
>>>>>>> deal with
>>>>>>> now, and these nasty private messages being sent to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's try to remain positive though, as we have 3 great
>>>>>>> bids for
>>>>>>> FOSS4G 2017, and a solid team working hard already to
>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>> FOSS4G-2016 in Bonn another amazing event. OSGeo has
>>>>>>> never been so
>>>>>>> active and vibrant as so many initiatives and location
>>>>>>> chapters grow
>>>>>>> all around the world.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for listening, and thank you Jody for bringing
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> topic to
>>>>>>> the public lists.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -jeff
>>>>>>>
>
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