[OSGeo-Discuss] Diversity in FOSS4G

Sat Aug 11 05:43:43 PDT 2018

 >  Once we have a 50% of speakers that are women (even 40%), we can 
start saying that having a full keynoter line of women speakers is no 
diversity.

At the risk of asking a question that I know isn't meant to be asked - 
why 50%? Or "even 40%"? Surely the % should be around the same as the 
percentage of the workforce that engage in the field? This survey 
indicates it's about 37% globally so 40% would be reasonable - 
https://www.gislounge.com/gender-gis-workforce/
(Why the rate is 37% globally is an entirely different kettle of fish).

 >  Up till then, having all women as keynoters is not a diversity 
issue, but an effort to try to promote gender diversity and balance with 
the rest of speakers.

I included the definition of diversity for a reason. As stated, by 
definition neither of the conferences has any gender diversity in their 
keynotes. Now, if the Dar committee wants to engage in 
gender-discrimination when picking their speakers to try and rectify a 
shortage of female-speakers in the general line-up, that's their choice, 
but it cannot then be claim keynote "diversity" when there is, again by 
definition, no such diversity.

What you appear to be saying is that it's fine to discriminate as long 
as it's in favour of the minority, aka "Affirmative action" which I 
think is just replacing one wrong with another.

 > For me, saying you are only seeing the glass half full is like saying 
"we have done enough, don't press more".
I was commending them for the racial diversity they have (in a topic 
titled "Diversity in FOSS4G"), where others skipped over this and went 
straight to pointing out a diversity they had not achieved (while 
ironically not achieving it themselves).

Personally I seek to be an egalitarian - I'm a big fan of equality - 
which is why I pointed out some of the various other forms of diversity 
as they so often get forgotten (age especially).

On 2018-08-11 12:10, María Arias de Reyna wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Jonathan Moules
> <jonathan-lists at lightpear.com> wrote:
>> Glass-half-full observation: In a topic talking about the FOSS4G Asia
>> diversity, no-one has commented on the commendable range of racial diversity
>> in those keynotes.
>>
>> As to gender in keynotes, a Devils Advocate would point out there is no
>> gender diversity in the 2018 Dar es Salaam keynote speakers either (assuming
>> the four on the 2018.foss4g.org front page) - they're also all the same
>> gender. Except that given the gender disparity in this field, it seems
>> reasonable to me to conclude that Dar have probably done this intentionally
>> whereas Asia's seems statistically plausible without even needing to factor
>> in unconscious biases.
> Once we have a 50% of speakers that are women (even 40%), we can start
> saying that having a full keynoter line of women speakers is no
> diversity. Up till then, having all women as keynoters is not a
> diversity issue, but an effort to try to promote gender diversity and
> balance with the rest of speakers. Or... maybe the keynoters were good
> on their own? Beware of thinking that chosen woman speakers are there
> only because of quotas.
>
> That's why I said we still have to check about percentages considering
> the full program. But as a starter, having a full male line of
> speakers is not a good sign. Statistics is only an excuse. I can
> understand that this can be something the organization didn't have in
> mind and, as they are volunteers, they have limited effort to spend on
> the organization of the conference and gender diversity was not on
> their priorities. As said, it is a subject difficult to approach and
> it is no good to try to fix it in a rush because you may end up doing
> more harm than you expected.
>
> For me, saying you are only seeing the glass half full is like saying
> "we have done enough, don't press more". While I think we should press
> much more! We already know the conference is going to have a lot of
> outstanding talks, the discussion here is where is the visibility for
> woman. I don't think any of us is demeaning the speakers lineup, we
> are just pointing to a real current problem we (all) have.
>
>> And what of diversity of age? I'm fairly confident in guessing that the Asia
>> keynotes are all 40s-50s. I'm less confident guessing Dar's, but I'd say in
>> their 20's to 30's.
> I agree that age diversity is another concern. And also having always
> the same "token" person talking. The classy "haha, I found a woman or
> a poc that gives good talks, let's put her everywhere!". Nope.
>
> But still, age diversity is something that gives everyone equal trait
> at some point because everyone reaches the "good" range of ages at
> some point of their lives. So, even if it is something we can improve,
> it is a problem way behind of the gender diversity problem, where some
> people just don't have an oportunity ever.
>
>> Definition (from the OED):
>> Diverse (Adj), "Showing a great deal of variety; very different."
>>
>> By that definition, neither have gender diversity, both have racial
>> diversity (Asia's more-so), and both have little age diversity.
> So this means we are doing very good in racial diversity this year,
> but falling behind on gender diversity on regional events. Let's see
> if we can keep up on racial diversity next year for the main
> conference and improve gender diversity in regional events? As said,
> this is a long-distance race. It is not very helpful if we have a good
> racial diversity this year but forget about them in the following
> years.
>
> Also, good time to remind amazing work of TGP for bringing economic
> diversity to FOSS4G (which is another huge concern).
>
>> Cheers,
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2018-08-09 10:43, María Arias de Reyna wrote:
>>
>> I agree this is a good topic to bring into the open, and not an easy
>> one. For what I have seen, FOSS4G Asia organization is doing a good
>> job, this is just a hard subject to address. Even if that keynote
>> lineup was full of women (like in main FOSS4G!) we still have to check
>> about the rest of speakers and the attendees. But you are right,
>> adding at least one woman keynoter can make a difference.
>>
>> For those of you who may be reading this and need some context, this
>> is a long-distance race, not a sprint. Reaching outside your comfort
>> zone networks (usually mostly male contacts in the case of male
>> developers) to get more women speakers is not something you can do on
>> a blink. Specially if the organizers didn't have the problem in mind
>> when the organization started. We usually say that if you start
>> worrying about diversity after you choose the venue, you are already
>> too late.
>>
>> I will be in FOSS4G Asia and I hope to get in contact with the
>> organization to know about their idiosyncrasy, their worries and their
>> challenges. Trying to help from here is difficult, as my networks are
>> mostly european and american. But still, we can work together in
>> strategies and how to improve diversity. I am going to give a talk
>> with Malena on Tanzania about general strategies and how to work on
>> improving diversity and my plan is to write down later whatever comes
>> from that conversation so we have some guidelines or good practices
>> that any OSGeo event can use.
>>
>> Maybe it is time we renew the woman at osgeo mailing list to join forces?
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 12:25 AM, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hey Mark, good on you for voicing publicly. Our ability to discuss openly is
>> a strength of our community, and one we are learning to use responsibly. I
>> saw your tweet yesterday, but find the discussion list more useful for
>> internal discussion such as this.
>>
>> It is a hard balance between requesting or encouraging changes we want to
>> see vs expressing dissapointment in the activities of others. This is
>> especially important in a volunteer organization such as ours where
>> disappointment however kindly expressed can hit really moral hard
>> (especially as volunteers are pulling an event together).
>>
>> I have been on both sides of this balance and it is never comfortable, as
>> you express in your struggle above. Ideally, I seek to offer my time if I am
>> in position to be of assistance and if the assistance is welcome.  If not in
>> a position to help I seek to learn or look for an opportunity for feedback.
>>
>> I learned a lot as your foss4g event planning has unfolded and your
>> challenges, priorities and direction became clear.
>>
>> It is my hope that we will learn what challenges the foss4g-asia event is
>> facing and what we as an organization can do to assist.
>>
>> If you have been following the board meetings the Sri Lanka chapter is just
>> being officially recognized (and the membership shows some diversity). OSGeo
>> has also set aside funding for our president to attend the foss4g-asia
>> event.
>> --
>> Jody Garnett
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 at 14:53, Mark Iliffe <markiliffe at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I’ve really agonised over whether to send this email. First of which,
>> being the imminent final preparations for FOSS4G taking up a lot of time,
>> but also whether it’s appropriate for me in my role of chair of FOOS4G to
>> offer public critique of regional events. It is in this vein that I’d like
>> to really stress that I’m writing this as an OSSGeo charter member.
>>
>> When I first saw this, my heart sank:
>> http://www.foss4g-asia.org/2018/keynotes/
>>
>> Where is the gender diversity in the line up? I know that organising a
>> FOSS4G is really difficult, but we need to be reaching far and wide and that
>> starts with our keynotes. Potentially I’m missing something here - and I
>> probably am, if so I am sorry if this is the case! - but can we have a
>> rethink of the line up to really represent our community?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Mark
>>
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