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<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Jo,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow"'>You wrote: " I really enjoyed the
recent discussion here about non-developers contributions to open source
projects and communities. Writing documentation and tutorials and maintaining
translations, in particular. That code-jockey primacy attitude is potentially
alienating to people wanting to contribute this kind of hard work."<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow"'>It is interesting that you bring this up.
Almost all of our documentation and translation work at OpenJUMP is done by
non-programmers active in the community. In fact, I even take care of commiting
updated translation files to the SVN for one of these users.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow"'>Without these efforts, we might not ever get
anything documented. :]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow"'>You wrote: " At least Autodesk, for
example, saw this and made bona fide effort to "build community",
rather than dropping millions of lines of undocumented, hard-to-configure code
onto the net, hoping an imaginary "open source community" would
sprinkle pixie dust onto it, as Sun did at first - as if the time and goodwill
of potential contributors were inexhaustible."<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow"'>Excellent point. It takes more than pixie
dust to build a healthy community around an open source software project.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow"'>Landon<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org [mailto:discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org] On
Behalf Of jo@frot.org<br>
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 7:27 AM<br>
To: punkish@eidesis.org; OSGeo Discussions<br>
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] scale of FOSS projects</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 05:14:40PM -0500, P Kishor wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> On 5/8/08, Schuyler Erle <schuyler@nocat.net> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> > is that the number-one sine-qua-non of *any*
potentially successful<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> > software project is *shipping working code*.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> > Until a developer does that, the discussion of whether
or not his/her<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> > project needs or deserves institutional/organizational
support<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>That is not what this discussion is about, though. (And the point<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>seems self-evident, given this is a discussion about open source<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>software projects, defined by having working code "in the
wild")<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> Steve Coast (OSM) echoed the same sentiment very elegantly --
"Real<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> artists ship. For everyone else, there is wanking."<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> After a short hesitation, I have really come to appreciate it.
Yup,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> unless there is working code, everything else -- sponsorships,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> organization, standards, committees, mailing lists -- is
pointless.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I really enjoyed the recent discussion here about non-developers<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>contributions to open source projects and communities. Writing<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>documentation and tutorials and maintaining translations, in<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>particular. That code-jockey primacy attitude is potentially alienating
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>to people wanting to contribute this kind of hard work. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>For many it is easy to write software. There is a lot of code out
there,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>a lot of abandon-ware, projects that are "free" by a legal
definition<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>but with none of the supporting infrastructure that helps them to get<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>used and to acquire a client base. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>At least Autodesk, for example, saw this and made bona fide effort to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>"build community", rather than dropping millions of lines of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>undocumented, hard-to-configure code onto the net, hoping an imaginary<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>"open source community" would sprinkle pixie dust onto it, as
Sun did<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>at first - as if the time and goodwill of potential contributors were<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>inexhaustible.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>There is this cultural pressure on "standards" to be
marketing tools.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Because of the government and military context for GIS, this pressure<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>is particularly intense for us. It starts to loop back on itself<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>somewhat like this, http://frot.org/on_standards/statements.html <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>This does have a countereffect on innovation in software and it also<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>probably does prevent "bona fide" standards developing in a natural
way.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>As well as creating this terrific and largely justified backlash<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>against some of the in-a-vacuum work done by OGC, ISO. (GeoDRM anyone)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>However the process of working things out by rough consensus and
running code <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>takes longer, business process says, "first to market ->
"natural monopoly|<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>de facto standard". <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>It is unfortunate, because proper interoperability can be such a force
for<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>good - cf MetaCRS, and the future time and hassle that is going to be
saved<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>for many people, once the inevitable initial round of talking is done.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I know, this argument has gone round and round in the past, and many<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>are impatient with philosophising. I hope that philosophising can<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>sometimes provide energysaving insight, or i wouldnt engage in it. But<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>repeating "without code, you are nothing" grates on the
nerves after a while.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>jo<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>--<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Discuss mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Discuss@lists.osgeo.org<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=3 face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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