<div dir="ltr">Just to also add some concrete examples of other ways that USNG is being used, particularly for things like off-road trails, take a look at <a href="http://usngcenter.org/portfolio-item/elm-system/">http://usngcenter.org/portfolio-item/elm-system/</a> and <a href="http://www.twincities.com/old/home/ci_23229150/minnesota-marker-signs-might-look-funny-until-you">http://www.twincities.com/old/home/ci_23229150/minnesota-marker-signs-might-look-funny-until-you</a>.<div><br></div><div>USNG has wide applicability in the ability to be used on maps, in GPS/Mobile Phone/ displays, and with markers such as these that can replace (or be used alongside) things that can be ambiguous like mile markers and fire numbers.</div><div><br></div><div>Steve's point on trying to converge on a single standard for this type of use is a very important point. For emergency response, you really do want something that everyone (from the 5th grader to the Sheriff) knows how to recognize and use <i>before they need it</i>. </div><div><br></div><div>Whether there are other systems that may be better in certain scenarios, USNG has proven utility across many. By standardizing on it, it is very similar to being able to teach our children to dial 911 rather than having a different emergency number for fire, police, ambulance in each and every jurisdiction.</div><div><br></div><div>By being able to do things like incorporating into signs (or GPS or mobile apps) the emergency response can become something more along the lines of VICTIM: "I'm in the park on a trail and am hurt" DISPATCHER: "Are there any trail signs around you that have a blue sign with a block of 8 digits, can you read those to me".</div><div><br></div><div>David</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 9:52 AM, Steve Swazee <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sdswazee@sharedgeo.org" target="_blank">sdswazee@sharedgeo.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Jonathan,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Good afternoon. Per your comments below, I’ll try to keep this simple.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">As a former military and airline pilot I am acutely aware that there is not one panacea coordinate system. Latitude/longitude is appropriate for worldwide aviation and sea going navigation. In a past life, I was trained in UTM for surveying – and so on. However, the most fundamental role any government can have is the protection of its citizens. On an international basis, that mission falls to the armed forces. On a local basis, that mission falls to the first response community. Ongoing efforts in the United States which are driving the legislative and policy efforts to incorporate use of USNG are coming primarily from the first response community because 35% of their calls go to a location without a street address. It is not only a significant problem, it is a HUGE problem that is becoming compounded by the rate at which individuals are unplugging their hard wired land lines in lieu of cells phones only. Thus, there is a need for a geolocation STANDARD for first response. And if you know anything at all about this community – you would know everything is about standards. It does no good to call a fire crew from the next city over if their hose couplings won’t work on your town’s fire hydrants. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">So a question. If not USNG as the “language of location” for first response, then what? The reason adoption is taking off in the US is because everyone that has honestly considered that question comes back to the same conclusion - nothing beats the USNG/MGRS coordinate system in the realm of first response. A system which had an original design criteria of an 8<sup>th</sup> grader must be able to learn it 15 minutes, has just as much utility in the first response community as it does in the last response military community. And by extension, for the first response community to be able to use it effectively, the public must also know how to use it. Consequently, there must be a standard for this purpose and only ONE standard, otherwise you don’t have a standard. Thus, the concern about promotion of other coordinate systems that are inferior on many levels. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Now that I have your attention, I believe you and the rest of the OSGeo community would be well served by spending some time truly learning about this issue. In so doing, I’m sure the open minds among you will come to the conclusion that USNG/MGRS is the answer to the issue I am addressing. OSGeo could do the world a heap of good in doing so.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d">Steve<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Jonathan Moules [mailto:<a href="mailto:J.Moules@hrwallingford.com" target="_blank">J.Moules@hrwallingford.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 30, 2015 7:39 AM<br><b>To:</b> '<a href="mailto:sdswazee@sharedgeo.org" target="_blank">sdswazee@sharedgeo.org</a>' <<a href="mailto:sdswazee@sharedgeo.org" target="_blank">sdswazee@sharedgeo.org</a>>; '<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a>' <<a href="mailto:discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Munich Orientation Convention, Mapcodes, and All the Rest<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><span class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi Steve,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p><u></u><span style="font-family:Wingdings"><span>Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>A little research on the topic of USNG/MGRS and how it works would be of benefit to those who wish to slam a worldwide referencing system created after WWII when a NATO armed forces business review determined the Allies got too many people killed trying to use latitude/longitude when street addresses don’t work. The answer isn’t hypothetical, it’s written in blood. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I’ve not seen anyone “slam” the MRGS. I did point out myself that it serves a slightly different, albeit somewhat overlapping purpose to those other systems that have been highlighted earlier. It’s clearly great for the military and I have little doubt it’d be similarly useful for first-responders. That said, that doesn’t mean it’s a perfect fit for the civil world where military or even first-responder discipline is in short supply.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p><u></u><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1f497d"><span>Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><u></u>(two less than a phone number, and who can’t remember that?)<span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Lots-of-people can’t remember them (<a href="http://www.engadget.com/2005/03/12/cant-remember-phone-numbers-youre-not-alone/" target="_blank">http://www.engadget.com/2005/03/12/cant-remember-phone-numbers-youre-not-alone/</a> - or <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7885227/Most-people-cannot-remember-partners-mobile-phone-number.html" target="_blank">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7885227/Most-people-cannot-remember-partners-mobile-phone-number.html</a>)<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">“An online test to assess the [UK’s] ability to recall sequences of numbers found nine in 10 cannot remember a mobile phone number after an interlude of just five seconds”<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I’m not sure how your examples show MGRS as superior. In the first case the problems appear to have been institutional, and in the second it’s a lack of navigation/map-reading skills on the part of both the teacher and the first wave of responders. In neither case would MGRS or any other system been helpful. If you don’t know where you are, you can’t communicate, and if the people you’re communicating with aren’t listening, there’s little benefit to communicating in the first place.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I don’t know what the solution is, but it doesn’t seem like MGRS would be the panacea you put forth, just like I suspect there are problems with the other systems. But I do agree with you and others that it’s an important subject.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Kind regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Jonathan <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></span><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif"> <a href="mailto:discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org</a> [<a href="mailto:discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">mailto:discuss-bounces@lists.osgeo.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Steve Swazee<span class=""><br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 29, 2015 3:26 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:discuss@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">discuss@lists.osgeo.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [OSGeo-Discuss] Munich Orientation Convention, Mapcodes, and All the Rest<u></u><u></u></span></span></p></div></div><span class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal">Dr. Reed, et al.,<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">“Somehow I do not see a dispatcher saying to a responding officer, "Shots fired at 103132" :-)” Carl, you are wrong. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">On June 30, 2013, 19 wildland firefighters lost their lives when a wall of fast moving flame over took their position at the Yarnell Hill fire in Arizona. Reports from that incident attempt to gloss over a body of evidence pointing to geospatial ineptness at all levels with terms like “fog of war” and “communication clutter”. It is the only way those at the top of the food chain can defend themselves from the reality that as those firefighters climbed into their last defense fire shelters known as “shake and bake bags”, those 19 souls were unable to quickly and effectively communicate their location and request help. A truly unfortunate circumstance given there was a large airborne tanker full of retardant circling directly overhead their position. This incident has sparked an ongoing debate in the wildland fire community - that like the armed forces before it – the nation’s wildland fire community needs to get onboard with use of the USNG/MGRS. Try this: Mayday, Mayday, Mayday – 8975 4563. For those who know how the grid works, those 8 digits (two less than a phone number, and who can’t remember that?) just passed location for a retardant drop with a location accuracy of 33’. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">On May 22, 2013, grade school students from a Minneapolis suburb were on a fossil hunting field trip at the Lilydale Regional Park which sits along the Mississippi River flats in St. Paul, MN. A landslide there buried two children and a desperate call for help was made to the 911 center. Street address for a large rambling park that stretches for miles – one. Ability of a panicked teacher unfamiliar with the area to describe location in the park so someone could understand – zero. Smartphone triangulation – crap. But it doesn’t stop there. Despite the park being in the middle of dense urban area, it took responders more than 50 minutes to locate the incident site, and even after the first wave of responders found the location, those responders were unable to provide information about their location for additional assistance. Outcome? Two dead children. Beyond that loss of life, the incident has cost the City of St. Paul something north of $1.5 million. The result has been a heap of soul searching about how to communicate location when a street address won’t work. Carl, from being here for the TC GECCo, you already know what the answer is. In the City of St. Paul, Minnesota, responders are now expected to know what “Shots fired at 103132” means. Too bad it took the death of these two children in 2013 to force adoption of a plan laid out in 2011.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">If you want more examples, I have them – responders in Florida are now using 6 digit grid coordinates (100 meter accuracy) to communicate the coordinates of helicopter landing zones – and so on.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">The naïve and uniformed comments I have been reading on this board in an effort to promote a new best thing for communicating location, are troubling in the extreme. I believe part of the charter of OSGeo is service to the common good. Yet, the reality of these plans and promotions fly in the face of the Harry S. Truman quote: “It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” In an effort to be “the hero” who solves the street address problem – the hawking of these half-baked plans here and elsewhere (see the recent New Yorker magazine Map Codes article: <a href="http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/should-mapcodes-replace-gps?mbid=social_facebook" target="_blank">http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/should-mapcodes-replace-gps?mbid=social_facebook</a>) is creating geospatial confusion at the cost of lives.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">A little research on the topic of USNG/MGRS and how it works would be of benefit to those who wish to slam a worldwide referencing system created after WWII when a NATO armed forces business review determined the Allies got too many people killed trying to use latitude/longitude when street addresses don’t work. The answer isn’t hypothetical, it’s written in blood. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">I return to my original point in response to the Munich Orientation Convention posting. “If OSGeo wanted to do something to truly help the world gain better situational awareness, it would stop for a moment and reflect on the realities of these "new" best ideas for relating location - the same way it has inserted itself into the open LiDAR discussion - and begin working to understand and promote the Military Gird Reference System (MGRS). “ It DOES MATTER what you build into your Open Source Software for location referencing – in a big way.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Steve<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="background:white">This message has been scanned for viruses by </span><a href="http://www.mailcontrol.com/" target="_blank"><span style="background:white">MailControl</span></a><span style="background:white">, a service from BlackSpider Technology</span><u></u><u></u></p><p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Click <a href="https://www.mailcontrol.com/sr/1YuXD28qfFLGX2PQPOmvUkHxlm0SZLPCU9Io9VWyl551gFh6bHaPhcG+AJqwcBxyLtOI3TDZ9OHCXaTERp6oIw==" target="_blank">here</a> to report this email as spam.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p align="center" style="text-align:center"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center"></span></div><p><b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">HR Wallingford and its subsidiaries</span></b><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> uses faxes and emails for confidential and legally privileged business communications. 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