<div dir="ltr">+1</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Jody Garnett <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jody.garnett@gmail.com" target="_blank">jody.garnett@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>So far I have enjoyed this thread for the number of ideas it brings forth.</div><div><br></div>Just want to highlight the small difference between a forge (SourceForge, Google Code, Gitourious, GitHub) and Foundation (OSGeo, Apache, Linux, Eclipse).<div><br></div><div>Forges tend to focus software version control, build facilities, and artifact hosting. They make money by selling these same facilities to enterprise, while often accepting open source projects "on board" as a form of free advertising.</div><div><br></div><div>Foundations focus on projects (license, legal, governance, promotion .. some even include a social agenda). When they make money they do so by providing vendor neutral table for organizations to collaborate together (even if they kick each other under the table on occasion). Software hosting services are incidental to these goals - although some foundations like Apache take on hosting as way to control the legal exposure that comes with hosting code.</div><div><br></div><div>One advantage of OSGeo as a foundation is we have the flexibility to allow out project to change up which forge they use over time (seeing projects migrate from cvs, subversion, SourceForge / GoogleCode / GitHub).</div><div><div><br></div><div><div>For projects OSGeo provides something to "belong to" and a fair brand boost :) </div></div><div><br></div><div>So yeah, if OSGeo rolled up the carpet we would have to set up another foundation for the projects the next day.</div><div>--</div><div>Jody</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>--</div><div>Jody Garnett</div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div class="h5">
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On 26 September 2015 at 12:38, Frank Gasdorf <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:fgdrf@users.sourceforge.net" target="_blank">fgdrf@users.sourceforge.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Thanks Darrell for such a clear and structured statement.</div><div>I'd like to add a few thoughts. First I'd like to aggree to the infrastructure thing, in times Open Source projects can get a space (SCM, Ticket system, Build infrastructure, etc) for free everywhere it's kind of wired OSGeo paying for it. Like Jo noticed, things changing over time and maybe here projects can move forward - e.g. like GeoTools and GeoServer did. The point was and still is, that's not OSGeo driven to provide a common infrastructure for OSGeo projects. Each project cares about it's own setup and that burns a lot of volunteering time. However, maybe here can start the discussion, if that would be a benefit for projects.</div><div>IMHO FOSS4G is a brand, wheras OSGeo isn't. I never has been involved yet organizing a FOSS4G but it sounds like a hugh effort from local teams slightly supported by OSGeo. I love FOSS4G's because its a chance to have face to face meetings with Contributors and Users from all over the world. In the past I remember the WMS shootouts where I got the impression, OSGeo/FOSS4G is the best place it can be happen: Several projects in a battle to improve these all together. Thats making the world a better place..</div><div>On other levels, would it be worth to setup similiar competitions for other fields: Tile caches, Desktop clients, Processing Implementations and so on. Would that help to push projects and provide comparable values between OS and proprietary projects.</div><div> </div><div>Same for codesprints and hackathons... Sponsoring such events helps growing community, improving projects and finally helps users who using this great software stack</div><div>How can OSGeo help creating Solutions with Components of this stack. OSGeo Live is the first step I guess: Setup things and finding out how the fit together. We learned a lot from other projects within OSGeo live and that improves each project I guess. What's the major output for Users?</div><div><br></div><div>What about "Long Term Support", would that be a field OSGeo could help projects and users in the same way?</div><div>Maybe we can think about other sponsoring models, where Companies paying anual fees. What could the expect from OSGeo, what would be an added value for these?</div><div>And finally, from a uDig perspective: Whats the different between Geospatial organizations such as OSGeo and LocationTech. From my perspective : They have a totally different history, I 'd say community driven vs. company driven, which includes different sponsoring models. Maybe its worth to think about: Whats the driver, the community or the business behind sponsoring companies?</div><div><br></div><div>Again, Thank you Darrell for initial post, I guess the discussion helps a lot to get a Strategy for the future</div><div><br></div><div>Warm regards, Frank</div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2015-09-26 15:29 GMT+02:00 Jo Cook <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jocook@astuntechnology.com" target="_blank">jocook@astuntechnology.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir="ltr">Hi All, and especially Darrel,</p>
<p dir="ltr">In his email Darrel articulated some ideas that I have been having for a couple of years now, but haven't been able to clearly define.</p>
<p dir="ltr">So firstly I'd like to say that I totally agree with Darrel's points (and Michael Gerlek's previously)- OSGeo is definitely in danger of becoming irrelevant. Some of this is down to being a victim of its own success. The projects have, in many cases, matured and become popular to the point where they no longer need OSGeo. I'd really like to see a thorough assessment of our goals and objectives to decide what is still important. The availability of infrastructure, version control, open data, etc have improved massively over the last 5 years so now is a great time for a real spring-clean and decide what we need to keep and what we don't.</p>
<p dir="ltr">What does the world really need from OSGeo that it can't get from anyone else? What problems could we solve moving forward? Those are the things we should focus on.</p>
<p dir="ltr">I'm currently trying to write an article on open geospatial in 2020 and I can honestly say I'm struggling to see a place for OSGeo in it. I'd really like to be proved wrong (and I'd love some predictions for my article, but that's for another discussion).</p>
<p dir="ltr">Thanks</p><span><font color="#888888">
<p dir="ltr">Jo<br></p></font></span><div><div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 26 Sep 2015 1:40 pm, "Just van den Broecke" <<a href="mailto:just@justobjects.nl" target="_blank">just@justobjects.nl</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear Milo,<br>
<br>
That you agree Darrel's statements is your opinion and fine in any open discussion.<br>
<br>
I react here on your phrase: '"empty talkers" from my country run for charter membership'.<br>
<br>
We have 9 Charter Members from the Netherlands, including me. I know each of them, and IMO they are far from "empty talkers". They all spend long voluntary hours in an array of activities that support OSGeo's global and OSGeo.nl local mission and FOSS in general. To name a few:<br>
Sebastiaan Couwenberg (2015) spends ample time in Debian packaging<br>
Barend Köbben (2012) helping/speaking at FOSS4G, org academic track<br>
We all know what Jeroen and Bart have accomplished. I could go on. Not all charter members need to make software, some make things happen like organizing local OSGeo.nl events and acting in the LOC for the upcoming FOSS4G in Bonn.<br>
<br>
So I hope your "empty talkers" phrase came out of a sudden impulse, that we all have from time to time. I had to react to clarify some things. Best,<br>
<br>
Just van den Broecke<br>
Secretary OSGeo.nl Foundation<br>
<br>
<br>
On 26-09-15 00:12, Milo van der Linden wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Being a "don't talk, act" member since 2008, entrepreneur and former<br>
chairman of a couple of local initiatives, I strongly agree.<br>
<br>
Seeing all the "empty talkers" from my country run for charter<br>
membership and still not having geoserver, which is the most mature open<br>
geospatial product I can think of pas incubation made me completely lose<br>
interest in OSGeo.<br>
<br>
I am disappointed, a little frustrated and plotting a business course<br>
that values open source and open knowledge. OSGeo or any in-crowd will<br>
have no part in my future.<br>
<br>
Thank you for your honest and to the point analyses.<br>
<br>
Milo<br>
<br>
On Sep 25, 2015 21:58, "Darrell Fuhriman" <<a href="mailto:darrell@garnix.org" target="_blank">darrell@garnix.org</a><br>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:darrell@garnix.org" target="_blank">darrell@garnix.org</a>>> wrote:<br>
<br>
The recent discussion on the board list<br>
<<a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/board/2015-September/013172.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/board/2015-September/013172.html</a>>that<br>
came out of the question of the 2014 videos has got me thinking<br>
about a few things again, and I want to try to get them out there.<br>
<br>
Grab a mug of your favorite liquid and hunker down, because I put<br>
some time and effort into this, and your own well considered reply<br>
is appreciated.<br>
<br>
Keep in mind that all of these comments are coming from my personal<br>
perspective, which, like everyone’s, is an incomplete picture of the<br>
whole. Much of what I’m going to say has been rolling around my head<br>
for a while, so I’m just going to put it out there.<br>
<br>
I will start with a provocative thesis:<br>
<br>
OSGeo lacks visionary unified leadership and without it will become<br>
irrelevant.<br>
<br>
Of course, making such a claim requires support. So let me break<br>
down the statement.<br>
<br>
“Visionary leadership” is really two things, “vision” and<br>
“leadership.” I will address each in turn.<br>
<br>
<br>
OSGeo lacks vision<br>
<br>
I looked at the list of “Goals” for OSGeo<br>
<<a href="http://www.osgeo.org/content/foundation/about.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.osgeo.org/content/foundation/about.html</a>>. I wonder: when<br>
was the last time these goals were evaluated for both success and<br>
relevancy?<br>
<br>
Here is my own opinion of success of some of these goals. (In the<br>
interest of brevity, I haven’t tried to tackle everything. That’s<br>
left as an exercise to the reader.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Example 1<br>
<br>
To provide resources for foundation projects - eg. infrastructure,<br>
funding, legal.<br>
<br>
Allow me to break each of those examples down.<br>
<br>
<br>
Infrastructure<br>
<br>
It’s true that OSGeo provides some infrastructure, such as Trac<br>
instance, Mailman, SVN repos. If the budget is to be believed, we<br>
pay some $3,500/yr to OSUOSL for said infrastructure. I wonder if<br>
such a service is necessary, however. Issue tracking and source<br>
control are much better provided by Github, which is free for<br>
organization such as ours.<br>
I say this because a) that’s money that could be better spent<br>
elsewhere and b) supporting these services burns precious volunteer<br>
time (more on that below).<br>
<br>
There are clear cost savings available, which are not taken<br>
advantage of. For example, OSGeo could be hosting FOSS4G<br>
infrastructure: conference websites and registration, a central<br>
location for conference videos (regardless of platform/provider).<br>
This neglect is especially galling given that FOSS4G is OSGeo’s sole<br>
source of income.<br>
<br>
<br>
Funding<br>
<br>
OSGeo does not fund projects. It has provided some funds to pay for<br>
Code Sprints — $15k in 2014 according to the budget<br>
<<a href="http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Budget_2014" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Budget_2014</a>>.<br>
<br>
<br>
Legal<br>
<br>
I see nothing that has been done on this front recently. Please feel<br>
free to correct me.<br>
<br>
<br>
Conclusion<br>
<br>
OSGeo, where it actually does what it claims, has not adapted in<br>
ways that could save money.<br>
<br>
My grade: D<br>
<br>
<br>
Example 2<br>
<br>
To promote freely available geodata - free software is useless<br>
without data.<br>
<br>
The geodata working group is dead. As near as I can tell by perusing<br>
the mailing list archives, and the wiki, there has been no<br>
meaningful activity in the past two years (maybe more).<br>
<br>
My grade: F<br>
<br>
<br>
Example 3<br>
<br>
To promote the use of open source software in the geospatial<br>
industry (not just foundation software) - eg. PR, training, outreach.<br>
<br>
The Board of Directors<br>
<<a href="http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Board_of_Directors#Packaging_and_Marketing" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Board_of_Directors#Packaging_and_Marketing</a>>page<br>
says:<br>
<br>
<br>
Packaging and Marketing<br>
<br>
OSGeo’s marketing effort has primarily been focused around the<br>
packaging and documentation efforts of OSGeo-Live, and to a lesser<br>
extend[sic], osgeo4w. […] It has been entirely driven by volunteer<br>
labour, with 140 OSGeo-Live volunteers, and printing costs have been<br>
covered by local events or sponsors. In the last couple of years,<br>
OSGeo has covered local chapter expenses required to purchase<br>
non-consumable items for conference booths (such as a retractable<br>
banner). In moving forward, OSGeo hope to extend marketing reach by<br>
providing co-contributions toward printing costs of consumable items<br>
at conferences, such as toward OSGeo-Live DVDs.<br>
<br>
<br>
Local Chapters<br>
<br>
Much of OSGeo’s marketing initiates are applied at the local level.<br>
In many cases, this is best supported through as little as an email<br>
list and wiki page. OSGeo also supports local chapters by offering<br>
to pay for an Exhibition starter pack for local chapters. Local<br>
chapters are also usually the coordinators of conferences and<br>
related events, as mentioned above.<br>
<br>
Exhibition starter packs almost never happen; OSGeo-Live<br>
explicitlygets no support; and OSGeo struggles to staff a booth at<br>
its own conferenceto say nothing of any other conferences.<br>
<br>
Note: Local chapters certainly do do marketing and outreach, but<br>
these efforts are essentially unsupported by the OSGeo Foundation.<br>
In fact, this goal and the Board of Directors webpage seem to be<br>
explicitly contradictory.<br>
<br>
My grade: F.<br>
<br>
<br>
Commentary<br>
<br>
I could go on with my own personal evaluations, but I’m not sure<br>
that’s necessary. The only place I see that OSGeo has unquestionably<br>
succeeded in the past few years is the final goal, “To award the Sol<br>
Katz award for service to the OSGeo community”.<br>
<br>
So, what’s my point here? It’s simple: there is no longer a coherent<br>
vision for what OSGeo should be. I’ll return to that below, but let<br>
me continue with my other point.<br>
<br>
<br>
OSGeo lacks leadership<br>
<br>
Again quoting the Board of Directors’ page:<br>
<br>
The board’s primary responsibility is to efficiently and effectively<br>
make strategic decisions related to the running of OSGeo.<br>
<br>
I won’t bore you with the details, but a perusal of the board<br>
meeting minutes would indicate that strategyis rarely, if ever, a<br>
part of the meetings.<br>
<br>
The emphasis on consensus-based decision making often leads to no<br>
decisions being made. I can’t count the number of discussions that<br>
have come up on the board list only to devolve into a morass of<br>
nit-picking and eventual lack of action when everyone tires of the<br>
discussion. What action that is taken is often to “delegate” to a<br>
(possibly inactive) sub-committee, then never follow up.<br>
<br>
Instead what we have is a great deal of inertia, little interest in<br>
changing things, and no clear indication of what the Board’s<br>
priorities are.<br>
<br>
If priorities do exist, they’re lost in a maze of confusing,<br>
incomplete and often contradictory information on the wiki. (Wikis —<br>
like abandonware for documentation.)<br>
<br>
<br>
On pending irrelevancy<br>
<br>
I encourage you to ask some random people in the open source<br>
geospatial community what OSGeo means to them. I would make a bet<br>
that the most common answer is a blank stare.<br>
<br>
I would ask the board members to come up with three things, other<br>
than FOSS4G, where the OSGeo membership has shown its importance to<br>
the community as a wholein the last two years. Something where<br>
people say, “Did you hear about[exciting thing]OSGeo is doing on X?”<br>
To be clear, I don’t mean just things that OSGeo has a finger in,<br>
but things that needOSGeo. If OSGeo disappeared tomorrow, would any<br>
of these projects be significantly affected?<br>
<br>
I don’t think it can be done. The OSGeo Foundation is sliding into<br>
irrelevancy — and it may already be there.<br>
<br>
If anything should be seen as strategic for OSGeo, it’s FOSS4G, the<br>
foundation’s primary (sole?) source of income. Even regarding its<br>
flagship public event, the board is largely absent. Rather than<br>
provide adequate resources and planning, they instead rely on<br>
burning out volunteers, then make post-hoc demands on the way they<br>
shouldhave done it, provide no future support for organizers to heed<br>
those demands, rarely follow up, then go on to repeat the same<br>
mistakes the following year. Honestly, it’s surprising that FOSS4G<br>
has failed only once. (I think this is a reflection of the demand<br>
for the conference, not the blazing competence of OSGeo.)<br>
<br>
Michael Gerlek brought this up<br>
<<a href="https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2015-July/014521.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/discuss/2015-July/014521.html</a>>on<br>
the osgeo-discuss list in July, and probably has a more generous<br>
spin on it. He essentially argues that it’s time to declare mission<br>
accomplished and shut down or rebooted. I agree with his points, and<br>
I’m arguing that OSGeo can have something to offer, but it will<br>
require a major re-think of its mission.<br>
<br>
<br>
Fixing things<br>
<br>
I hinted at this in my recent questions to the board candidates, but<br>
I want to be explicit here: OSGeo needs to evolve or die.<br>
<br>
Here’s how I would do it:<br>
<br>
1.<br>
<br>
The board needs to evaluate all of its goals, as defined on the<br>
About page, to decide if they are still truly goals. Define any<br>
new goals.<br>
<br>
2.<br>
<br>
Ask the question: “What does it mean to succeed at this goal?”<br>
<br>
If the goal is vague, or ongoing, give a timeline: “What does<br>
success look like for this goal one year from now?”<br>
<br>
3.<br>
<br>
Create measureable objectives for achieving those goals. Ask the<br>
question, “How will we know if we’ve succeeded?”<br>
<br>
4.<br>
<br>
Prioritize the goals.<br>
<br>
5.<br>
<br>
Allocate resources to the goals.<br>
<br>
Obviously this is a tricky one, but I think we can look at this<br>
a balance between Importance and Effort.<br>
<br>
<br>
Spend money to reduce to the effort required, more money if the<br>
goal is more important — this might be the hardest cultural<br>
shift. Volunteer time is precious and easily discouraged. Make<br>
sure that you make it as efficient as possible by spending money<br>
when you can.<br>
<br>
<br>
For example, many of the infrastructure services OSGeo provides<br>
can be easily outsourced to more featureful services that are<br>
more responsive and rely less on volunteer labor.<br>
<br>
6.<br>
<br>
Close the loop on tasks. When a task is delegated to a committee<br>
or individual, track its progress, both to know that it is or<br>
isn’t happening, and to be able to acknowledge and incorporate<br>
the work when it’s done. Failing to acknowledge people’s labor<br>
or to use the results of that labor will virtually guarantee<br>
that the volunteer does not continue to help.<br>
<br>
7.<br>
<br>
Evaluate success and failure. GOTO 1.<br>
<br>
Aside: none if this will happen without a strong executive. Whether<br>
that position is paid or not is up to the board, but it’s clear that<br>
there needs to be someone who can make decisions without endless<br>
rounds of fruitless discussions. The board as currently constituted<br>
is not dysfunctional, but it is mostly afunctional.<br>
<br>
I’m will go so far as to suggest this: Fly every board member who is<br>
available to a two or three day retreat. Get everyone in the same<br>
room, a professional facilitator to speed the process, then figure<br>
out what OSGeo is going to be and how to get there. Don’t fret<br>
excessively about the expense — this isn’t about saving money, it’s<br>
about saving OSGeo.<br>
<br>
If you ask me, irrelevancy is a fate worse than death. Be bold!It’s<br>
better to try to do something big and new then fail than to simply<br>
fade away and be forgotten.<br>
<br>
Though my comments above may sound harsh, they are sent with the<br>
very best of intentions. I want OSGeo to succeed, but OSGeo is never<br>
going to succeed if it doesn’t know what it’s try to succeed<br>
at.Without real reform, I don’t see success happening, just<br>
irrelevance. Here’s hoping this gets the ball rolling.<br>
<br>
Darrell<br>
<br>
<br>
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