[fdo-internals] Please review FDO RFC 38 - Multi-polygon support for SHP

Thu Jul 16 12:37:53 EDT 2009

> an external function that checks if a polygon is really a multi-polygon.

Orest, we already have such function:

            // Might return a Polygon or a MultiPolygon
            geometry = FdoSpatialUtility::CreateGeometryFromRings (rings, RELATE_RINGS);

As for the extra capability, I guess the fact SHP doesn't advertize multi-polygons can suffice. But this not clean since we'll just move the processing on the client, assuming that the client sometimes doesn't care about correctness. I would prefer to work on performance instead.

Traian, I assume you'll like to see some performance benchmarks before voting?

Thanks,
Dan.

-----Original Message-----
From: fdo-internals-bounces at lists.osgeo.org [mailto:fdo-internals-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Orest Halustchak
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 12:17 PM
To: FDO Internals Mail List
Subject: RE: [fdo-internals] Please review FDO RFC 38 - Multi-polygon support for SHP

We had users complain that they were losing their multi-polygons in some cases and we also have code in various places that does special case checking for SHP and this case. We need to generalize this so that client code doesn't keep having to do special checking and users get the correct fdo type back. This isn't really validating the geometry but determining the correct type to call it on read.

An alternative might be to add a capability that says that a provider is returning multi-polygons as polygons and provide an external function that checks if a polygon is really a multi-polygon. The client would still have to do extra work to check this and use the function when necessary. It doesn't completely remove special case handling.

Thanks,
Orest.

-----Original Message-----
From: fdo-internals-bounces at lists.osgeo.org [mailto:fdo-internals-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Traian Stanev
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 12:05 PM
To: FDO Internals Mail List
Subject: RE: [fdo-internals] Please review FDO RFC 38 - Multi-polygon support for SHP

It can be optimized but the cost will never be zero, like it is now... I guess we will have to find some sample data to compare the performance before and after, but from what I remember last time we had this check, it made rendering intolerably slow for some data sets (if you compared SHP to the equivalent SDF).

Another thing to consider is that there are other providers which don't validate geometry like that -- SDF, SQLite for example -- so client code will still have to compensate for polygons whose rings are disjoint so should be treated as multipolygons, regardless of whether the SHP provider fixes the geometry.

So I'd argue that the fixing of the geometry should be done by code that requires it to be fixed -- i.e. take the performance hit only when necessary. This way rendering would not have to suffer the performance hit.

Traian

-----Original Message-----
From: fdo-internals-bounces at lists.osgeo.org [mailto:fdo-internals-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Dan Stoica
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 11:59 AM
To: FDO Internals Mail List
Subject: RE: [fdo-internals] Please review FDO RFC 38 - Multi-polygon support for SHP

The performance depends on how fast is point-in-polygon test. This can be optimized. More, time permitting, I'll try to promote my new mini spatial index, designed for this purpose.

I'm not saying that will be no performance loss. But having correct results for spatial queries fully compensates, I believe.

Dan.

-----Original Message-----
From: fdo-internals-bounces at lists.osgeo.org [mailto:fdo-internals-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Traian Stanev
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 11:28 AM
To: FDO Internals Mail List
Subject: RE: [fdo-internals] Please review FDO RFC 38 - Multi-polygon support for SHP

It depends -- for display purposes it doesn't matter if it's a polygon with lots of rings or multipolygon, so in the most common case (every repaint in Map or MapGuide), it will be a net performance loss.

Traian

-----Original Message-----
From: fdo-internals-bounces at lists.osgeo.org [mailto:fdo-internals-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Dan Stoica
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 11:19 AM
To: FDO Internals Mail List
Subject: RE: [fdo-internals] Please review FDO RFC 38 - Multi-polygon support for SHP

Hi Frank,

> I do feel the RFC is a bit optimistic about the performance impact.  

I'll try to optimize if the case. Indeed, the implementation does not rely on the loops orientation. 

However, this has to be done because the previous approach "speed over correctness" proved to have serious consequences, worse than a performance penalty on loading (aren't the machines faster and faster?).

Regards,
Dan.

-----Original Message-----
From: fdo-internals-bounces at lists.osgeo.org [mailto:fdo-internals-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Frank Warmerdam
Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 10:09 AM
To: FDO Internals Mail List
Subject: Re: [fdo-internals] Please review FDO RFC 38 - Multi-polygon support for SHP

Orest Halustchak wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>  
> 
> We've run into issues where SHP multi-polygons are not being returned as 
> FDO multi-polygons by the FDO SHP provider. The issue stems from the SHP 
> specification having only a polygon type defined, but that definition 
> includes polygons with any number of outer rings which encompasses both 
> simple polygons and multi-polygons.
> 
>  
> 
> RFC 38, drafted by Dan Stoica, proposes to fix the problem by adding the 
> capability to the FDO SHP provider.
>
> See http://trac.osgeo.org/fdo/wiki/FDORfc38 .
> 
> Have a look at the RFC and provide your comments.

Dan / Orest,

I'm in support of this change.  I had to do the same thing in the OGR shape
driver a few years ago.  I do feel the RFC is a bit optimistic about the
performance impact.  I find it is common to have polygons with holes in
shapefile format, and they will all require fairly expensive processing to
determine if the extra rings are interior or exterior.

In theory I believe you are supposed to be able to tell from the ring
winding direction whether additional rings are interior or exterior.  However,
many shapefiles produced by crappy libraries (like my shapelib!) did not
set the winding direction properly so it is unwise to depend on this.

Best regards,
-- 
---------------------------------------+--------------------------------------
I set the clouds in motion - turn up   | Frank Warmerdam, warmerdam at pobox.com
light and sound - activate the windows | http://pobox.com/~warmerdam
and watch the world go round - Rush    | Geospatial Programmer for Rent

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