[OSGeodata] FOIA and VMAP1 anyone?

Sun Jul 9 21:07:03 EDT 2006


Jo Walsh wrote:
> dear Ned, Chris, all,
> 
> On Fri, Jul 07, 2006 at 05:16:40PM -0400, Chris Holmes wrote:
>>> data because they resided on CDs that contained restricted data. They
>>> claimed that the amount of work required to extract these data from the CD
>>> was too great to qualify for a FOIA request.
>> Interesting.  Do you have a list of what countries don't have 
>> 'restrictions'?  I'll forward this information on to my friend, see what 
>> he thinks.  But basically he's kind of in to harassing the government 
>> for things like this.  And I don't think he'd consider the fact that it 
>> resides on a CD that has restricted data a good enough argument, and 
>> would be willing to try to prove it in a court of law.
>>> If you're interested I'm happy to share the somewhat outdated material that
>>> I have (letters, contacts, CD index map, VMAP 1 CD availability). 
>> That'd be great.
> 
> This cound be a good place to start - collecting case histories
> from those who have tried and been stonewalled. If one started a wiki
> page / archive as a place to stand, I reckon quite a few people with 
> related histories would put their hands up. 
Cool.  It sounds like it could be a good start.  If OSGeo is not the 
place I can start up a project on http://www.openplans.org, it should 
fit in fine there.

> 
> My sense about this is; this debate has been going on a long while[0].
> It's likely a apt time for another attempt. Wikipedia mentions a "Free
> World Maps Foundation" working on this, but the only trace of them
> left is a now-defunct MSN groups page.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_Map#Debate_about_availability_of_data
> 
> But, I am not sure that FOIA is the best vehicle for this. 
> From what little i understand, agencies are not obliged to release
> data under FOIA if it requires processing to release it from
> exemptions. 
Dave doesn't seem to think that there is a firm legal basis for any of 
the exemptions they've cited in the past.  Even intergovernmental type 
agreements, the government is the one with the onus to prove exactly 
where they got it from and under what agreement.  The law for FOI stuff 
is actually superbly constructed and firmly gives a lot of power to 
citizens.

One possibility would be to offer to sign an NDA as a
> trusted party, and do the processing to make the data fit for public
> release. This could be a useful stance for OSGeo to take, but could be
> a lot of overhead as a project. I reckon it would also be really
> helpful to have a good, detailed use case for what would be done with
> VMap1 - not just "we want the data on principle" but "here are the
> educational / social purposes we'd put it to". How useful *is* VMap1
> really going to be, given its age? (we can't know, right? ;/) 
Well, no matter what I think it's a great start for places where we just 
have no data.  I'm thinking Africa for one, as it holds a place in my 
heart.  Something that's 20 years old is way better than nothing.


> 
> (A related fun story is Mike Frumin's attempts to get Metrocard
> transit-usage tracking data out of the New York transit authority via
> FOIL, to make optimal-path maps of subway journeys - 
> http://research.eyebeam.org/projects/nyc-metrocard-foil )
> 
> Last year I talked to some people from the OSI who seemed very
> interested in the idea of carrying out "impact litigation" to get
> VMap1 into the public domain in full; it is possible they would
> respond positively to a funding approach. (Chris, maybe you've joined
> the dots there already?) 
Joined one of two, Frumin was in on the conversation, and indeed his 
metrocard stuff was the other half of the conversation.  If you have a 
contact for OSI that'd be great.  One of our thoughts is to make all 
this stuff sustainable, so that success allows us to go after more, just 
need a bit of initial funding to bootstrap, reinvesting a portion of the 
lawyer fees back in to further attempts.  Dave has a non-profit set up 
for this kind of stuff, focused currently on police records, but they'd 
be in to this data stuff as well.

> 
> I hope in any case to open a conversation with NIMA/NGA about VMap* on
> behalf of OSGeo and this group - Markus suggested we contact them to
> attempt to get definite, reproducible word as to the extent of the
> non-commercial copyright that ESRI claims it holds in VMap0.
Cool.  There should be absolutely no legal basis for non-commercial 
claims, as what is produced by government is public domain.  But yes 
final word should be had, and possibly contested if it's not fully open.

Chris

>  
> cheers,
> 
> jo
> 
> [0] http://lists.directionsmag.com/discussion/read.php?f=13&i=15&t=13  
> [1]
> http://69.17.46.181/manifold/manuals/5_userman/mfd50Public_Access_to_Public_Data.htm
> 
> !DSPAM:1003,44af20bb177421460912952!
> 

-- 
Chris Holmes
The Open Planning Project
http://topp.openplans.org
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