[Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

[Cameron Shorter]

What would strengthen a position for use of Open LIDAR interfaces would 
be if such an Open LIDAR interface were introduced into the OGC 
standards program.

Carl,
I'd be interested to hear you (or someone else from the OGC) explain how 
people should approach initiating an Open LIDAR standard, and how much 
effort / cost would be required to do so.

The OSGeo community can then assess whether there is sufficient 
motivation to initiate such development of a standard.

Patrick,
For an Open Letter from OSGeo, it would be a very powerful statement if 
we can list a number of influential organisations who will commit to 
developing an open, interoperable standard. (This can be a section of 
the open letter with signatures).

On 2/03/2015 4:57 am, Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) wrote:
> Paul,
> I would care to refine the 'yawn' context of 'doing the right thing,' that of standing up to actions that directly contravene an organization's 'open exchange' mission. This would seem the kind of *engaged integrity* quite apart from one deserving a yawn. If your kids do something directly contrary to what the family needs for a healthy exchange of information, if a yawn is the response, there are even more serious issues at stake.
> -Patrick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Ramsey [mailto:pramsey at cleverelephant.ca]
> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 9:32 AM
> To: Carl Reed
> Cc: Cameron Shorter; P Kishor; Suchith Anand; Scott Simmons; OSGeo Discussions; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); OSGeo-Board; ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>
> Carl,
>
> No, it doesn't really clarify it. I think what people are wondering is "does OGC have a default mission and position that closed formats are bad for the industry and would it publicly admonish a member who took actions that ran counter to that position".  I assume that, as a "member driven organization" whose membership includes the offender, the OGC will not be standing up and publicly saying "this company is contravening the spirit of our organization and mission, that it is supposedly supportive of".
>
> Am I incorrect?
>
> WRT to OSGeo, I think that black letter cases like this come along infrequently enough that it would not be at all inappropriate for OSGeo to publicly state what is wrong with the direction being taken in the world of LAS formats. The only trouble is, it's exactly what everyone expects we would do, and therefore will be greeted with a collective yawn. But it is the right thing, so we should still do it.
>
> ATB,
>
> P.
>
> On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Carl Reed <creed at opengeospatial.org> wrote:
>> All -
>>
>> The OGC is not currently involved in activities related to defining or
>> maintaining LIDAR specific modeling and related encoding standards.
>> Any work the OGC has been doing WRT LIDAR is within the context of
>> processing, visualization, and analytics. Obviously, existing OGC
>> standards such as WCS and GMLJP2 can be used to encode and share small, processed LIDAR data sets.
>> Feel free to check OGC email archives, project pages, and so forth for
>> documentation on any ongoing discussions in the OGC related to LIDAR.
>>
>> http://www.opengeospatial.org/pub/www/ows9/innovations.html : The
>> thread participants looked at NITF, LIDAR, and DAP/OPeNDAP, and
>> investigated their re-implementation in an OWS environment with a focus on the Web.
>>
>> or
>>
>> http://koenigstuhl.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/publications/bonn/conference
>> /LanigGeoinformatik09.pdf
>>
>> for examples.
>>
>> Hope this clarifies the current OGC position.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Suchith Anand
>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 4:20 AM
>> To: Cameron Shorter ; P Kishor ; Suchith Anand
>> Cc: discuss at lists.osgeo.org ; Hogan, Patrick(ARC-PX) ;
>> board at lists.osgeo.org ; ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org
>> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format,
>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>
>>
>> Hi Cameron,
>>
>> Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous
>> Geoservices REST API issues and discussions.
>>
>> Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much
>> information as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the
>> Geoservices REST API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the
>> community and OSGeo Board and we all can look into this.
>>
>> Anyone from OGC willing to help with this?
>>
>> I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole
>> Geo community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be
>> decent enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in the future.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Suchith
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Cameron Shorter [cameron.shorter at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM
>> To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand
>> Cc: discuss at lists.osgeo.org; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>> board at lists.osgeo.org; ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org
>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the
>> ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>>
>> Patrick, others,
>> OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in
>> stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here:
>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API
>>
>> I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a
>> vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should
>> consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.
>>
>> 0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?) 1. Describe the issue. (Is
>> there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?) 2.
>> Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the
>> other, on both a technical and commercial point of view.
>> 3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
>> 4. If needed, collect signatures.
>> 5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter
>>
>> On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
>> Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for
>> scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand
>> <Suchith.Anand at nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:Suchith.Anand at nottingham.ac.uk>
>> wrote:
>> Hi Patrick,
>>
>> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board
>> need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from
>> the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be
>> discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the needed support for this.
>>
>> Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board
>> meeting's agenda items. Thanks.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Suchith
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From:
>> ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at l
>> ists.osgeo.org>
>> [ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
>> lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer
>> [lfi at ign.ku.dk<mailto:lfi at ign.ku.dk>]
>> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>> ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
>> by ESRI
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>> Lene Fischer
>> Associate Professor
>>
>> Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management University
>> of Copenhagen
>>
>> MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084>
>> lfi at ign.ku.dk<mailto:lfi at ign.ku.dk><mailto:lfi at ign.ku.dk<mailto:lfi at ig
>> n.ku.dk>>
>>
>>
>> [cid:image001.gif at 01D052C3.B23B1060]
>>
>>
>>
>> Fra:
>> ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at l
>> ists.osgeo.org>
>> [mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-b
>> ounces at lists.osgeo.org>]
>> På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
>> Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
>> Til:
>> ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org>
>> Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
>> by ESRI
>>
>> Dear OSGEO,
>> For what our good name is worth. . .
>> Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard
>> for a data format?
>> Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and collective
>> response encouraged.
>>
>> Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values?
>> I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are
>> created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
>> unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Openness].”
>>
>> The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>> http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clon
>> e/
>>
>> [First paragraph]
>> We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another
>> proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails,
>> retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky
>> tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are
>> being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have
>> enjoyed for many years.
>> [cid:image002.jpg at 01D052C3.B23B1060]
>>
>> Thanks much,
>> -Patrick
>> Project Manager
>> NASA World Wind
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Puneet Kishor
>> Manager, Science and Data Policy
>> Creative Commons
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Discuss at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:Discuss at lists.osgeo.org>
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cameron Shorter,
>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>> LISAsoft
>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>>
>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>,  F
>> +61 2
>> 9009 5099
>>
>>
>>
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-- 
Cameron Shorter,
Software and Data Solutions Manager
LISAsoft
Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009

P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099