[GRASS-dev] New Mac binaries uploaded

Thu Aug 27 12:25:11 PDT 2015

This looks like a very good direction for GRASS in the future from a practical and conceptual standpoint. It will probably take some rewriting of the existing LiDAR tools of course. This will be much easier if we can compile it more simply (without Boost). I took a look at the tools on the website. Having a good ‘ground’ module will be very important, since that is one of the proprietary LAS tools now. But I didn’t see the equivalent of las2las. Are these capabilities included in other tools that I didn’t see?

Michael
____________________
C. Michael Barton
Director, Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity 
Professor of Anthropology, School of Human Evolution & Social Change
Head, Graduate Faculty in Complex Adaptive Systems Science
Arizona State University

voice:  480-965-6262 (SHESC), 480-965-8130/727-9746 (CSDC)
fax: 480-965-7671 (SHESC),  480-727-0709 (CSDC)
www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton, http://csdc.asu.edu

> On Aug 25, 2015, at 6:50 AM, Howard Butler <howard at hobu.co> wrote:
> 
> Doug,
> 
> Thanks for the bump. Here's the case for using PDAL in GRASS:
> 
> 1) It has full LAS 1.4 support (libLAS stops at 1.2) (LASlib has full 1.4 support too)
> 2) It is entirely open source without LAStools'/LASlib's somewhat confusing licensing. It is also BSD if that matters to you.
> 3) It is developed by a group of developers, and it is developed on github with pull requests and typical open source methodology. If you have changes to make, you can start having impact right away.
> 4) It's GDAL for point clouds and supports reading at least 16 different point cloud formats and writing at least 14
> 5) It is composeable. Using its VRT-like Pipeline syntax, you can stack together reader, filter, and writer operations into a data flow that can be executed via simple command line tools or embedded into applications
> 6) It supports extension with Python. Using the predicate [1] and programmable [2] filters, you can write software that interacts with the points without having to develop C/C++. This is very useful for rapid prototyping of algorithms (you have the full expressiveness of numpy available to you).
> 7) It supports PCL integration. Advanced exploitive techniques [3] developed in that environment are available to utilize in processing pipelines via simple JSON configuration.
> 8) It has full coordinate system support through GeoTIFF/GDAL/proj.4. This is a big missing feature of LASlib.
> 
> With regard to PDAL's boost dependency, we are working to remove that. It's not gone at the moment, but it is really close. We recognize that Boost is a pain for many folks, and the C++11 standard added most of the features from boost PDAL was depending upon anyway. The most significant boost reliance at the moment is PDAL's use of program_options, but we are working around it. 
> 
> PDAL will be having its 1.0.0 release before FOSS4G 2015 in September. If you will be attending FOSS4G 2015, make sure to attend Michael Smith's presentation at 14:40 on Thursday where he will give examples and background on how to use PDAL for point cloud data processing and management.
> 
> We have PDAL packages for OSGeo4W64 and OSGeo4Mac. These are maintained by the developers of the software. We recognize that without packages, many folks cannot use the code, and we will be maintaining these packages as best we can going forward. We will leave the Linux packaging to the experts, however, and the official release will be the signal to those folks to bring it off the lab bench.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Howard
> 
> 
> [1] http://www.pdal.io/stages/filters.predicate.html
> [2] http://www.pdal.io/stages/filters.programmable.html
> [3] http://www.pdal.io/stages/filters.pclblock.html#implemented-filters
> 
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2015, at 8:15 AM, Newcomb, Doug <doug_newcomb at fws.gov> wrote:
>> 
>> The free tools of LASlib are licensed under the LGPL and cover LAS versions 1.0-1.3 .  I don't think LAS 1.4 is covered yet ( I could be wrong) .  LAS format up to 1.3  is limited to 4.2 billion points per file ( 32 bit integer) LAS 1.4 uses a 64 bit integer identifier. 
>> 
>> LASlib is also maintained by a single developer.
>> 
>> The principle author of Liblas ( Howard Butler)  has moved on with others to develop the pdal software, http://www.pdal.io/.  I've cc'ed Howard in case he would like to weigh in on the technical differences.
>> 
>> Doug  
>> 
>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:45 PM, Michael Barton <Michael.Barton at asu.edu> wrote:
>> That would be wonderful. I sort of got that impression too. But will the GRASS lidar tools be able to use LASlib instead of Liblas?
>> 
>> Michael
>> ____________________
>> C. Michael Barton
>> Director, Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
>> Professor of Anthropology, School of Human Evolution & Social Change
>> Head, Graduate Faculty in Complex Adaptive Systems Science
>> Arizona State University
>> 
>> voice:  480-965-6262 (SHESC), 480-965-8130/727-9746 (CSDC)
>> fax: 480-965-7671 (SHESC),  480-727-0709 (CSDC)
>> www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton, http://csdc.asu.edu
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 24, 2015, at 8:40 PM, William Kyngesburye <woklist at kyngchaos.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I looked at LAS this spring.  From what I found, libLAS is superceded by LASlib, found in LAStools.  laslib and some of the tools are still opensource, but other tools are not.
>>> 
>>> Laslib does not have a configure, it's a simple makefile that needs a little tweaking for OS X.  And there appears to be no dependence on BOOST or Geotiff, or anything else.
>>> 
>>> For laslib, all I needed to do was edit laslib/src/makefile and change these lines:
>>> 
>>> COPTS     = -Os -Wall -Wno-deprecated -DNDEBUG -DUNORDERED -arch x86_64 -isysroot /Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.7.sdk
>>> COMPILER  = clang++
>>> 
>>> And in the liblas.a target, add a line after the cp line (tha's a tab at the start):
>>> 
>>>      ranlib ../lib/$@
>>> 
>>> Also delete the precompiled Windows lib in laslib/lib.
>>> 
>>> You should be able to use the library right from the source, it's static so it will be built into GRASS without needing a copy of the laslib.  For GRASS configuration, the library will be in that lib folder and includes in the laslib/inc folder.
>>> 
>>> On Aug 24, 2015, at 3:47 PM, Michael Barton <michael.barton at asu.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> For LASlib compliing, I managed to get past the GEOTIFF problem with the following:
>>>> 
>>>> cmake -G "Unix Makefiles" -D CMAKE_OSX_ARCHITECTURES="i386;x86_64” \
>>>> -D CMAKE_OSX_SYSROOT="/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.7.sdk” \
>>>> -D GDAL_CONFIG=/Library/Frameworks/GDAL.framework/Programs/gdal-config \
>>>> -D GEOTIFF_INCLUDE_DIR=/Library/Frameworks/UnixImageIO.framework/unix/include \
>>>> -D GEOTIFF_LIBRARY=/Library/Frameworks/UnixImageIO.framework/unix/lib/libgeotiff.dylib \
>>>> ../
>>>> 
>>>> But now cmake is complaining about the CMAKE_OSX_ARCHITECTURES flag. I don’t know if this harkens back to the similar problem with boost or if this is new. I’ve tried both i386 and x86_64 individually and it still won’t compile.
>>>> 
>>>> Michael
>>>> ____________________
>>>> C. Michael Barton
>>>> Director, Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
>>>> Professor of Anthropology, School of Human Evolution & Social Change
>>>> Head, Graduate Faculty in Complex Adaptive Systems Science
>>>> Arizona State University
>>>> 
>>>> voice:  480-965-6262 (SHESC), 480-965-8130/727-9746 (CSDC)
>>>> fax: 480-965-7671 (SHESC),  480-727-0709 (CSDC)
>>>> www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton, http://csdc.asu.edu
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 24, 2015, at 1:30 PM, Michael Barton <Michael.Barton at asu.edu> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I’ve started trying to recompile liblas using the notes from last time (I think William provided considerable help on this). So far it is not working.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1 Recompiling boost 1.5.4
>>>>> 
>>>>> cd /Users/Shared/grass_dev/boost_1_54_0 ##note that I did not do anything to clean up my original compilation. Should I? How with C++?
>>>>> 
>>>>> edit /Users/Shared/grass_dev/boost_1_54_0/tools/build/v2/tools/darwin.jam to delete -gdwarf-2  ## already done
>>>>> 
>>>>> export CXXFLAGS=-stdlib=libstdc++
>>>>> ./bootstrap.sh --prefix=/Users/cmbarton/Dropbox/GRASS_dropbox/compiling/boost-snow --without-libraries=python
>>>>> 
>>>>> ## this worked several years ago but now fails. I DO have the OS X 10.7 SDK FWIW
>>>>> ./bjam variant=release link=static --without-mpi -j4 macosx-version=10.7 macosx-version-min=10.7 architecture=x86 address-model=32_64 install
>>>>> 
>>>>> ## So I tried without specifying the minimum OS and address model. This compiled but could be incorrect
>>>>> ./bjam variant=release link=static --without-mpi -j4 install
>>>>> 
>>>>> ## This was in my notes but does not seem needed
>>>>> Need to manually delete the comma at the end of the list on line 117 of /boost-snow/include/boost/interprocess/errors.hpp
>>>>> 
>>>>> 3. Then follow instructions at: http://www.liblas.org/compilation.html#using-xcode-on-os-x for standard install (not xcode)
>>>>> from libLAS folder...
>>>>> 
>>>>> cd to liblas source folder
>>>>> mkdir makefiles
>>>>> cd makefiles
>>>>> 
>>>>> export BOOST_ROOT="/Users/cmbarton/Dropbox/GRASS_dropbox/compiling/boost-snow"
>>>>> 
>>>>> cmake -G "Unix Makefiles" -D CMAKE_OSX_ARCHITECTURES="i386;x86_64" -D CMAKE_OSX_SYSROOT="/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX10.7.sdk" ../
>>>>> 
>>>>> ## fails because it can’t find geotiff libraries. But it does find geotiff libraries. So that’s weird. Also cannot find laszip. I can’t tell if this is required or optional. I didn’t need it before.
>>>>> ## here is the error…
>>>>> 
>>>>> Searching for LASzip 2.0.1+ library
>>>>> -- Could NOT find LASzip (missing:  LASZIP_LIBRARY LASZIP_INCLUDE_DIR) (Required is at least version "2.0.1")
>>>>> -- Searching for GDAL 1.7.0+ library
>>>>> -- Found acceptable GDAL version 1.11.2
>>>>> -- Searching for GeoTIFF 1.2.5+ library
>>>>> -- Found GeoTIFF version: 1.4.0
>>>>> -- Could NOT find GeoTIFF (missing:  GEOTIFF_LIBRARY) (Required is at least version "1.2.5")
>>>>> CMake Error at CMakeLists.txt:262 (message):
>>>>> GDAL support requires GeoTIFF library which was not found
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> So this is where I’m stuck currently. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Michael
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ____________________
>>>>> C. Michael Barton
>>>>> Director, Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
>>>>> Professor of Anthropology, School of Human Evolution & Social Change
>>>>> Head, Graduate Faculty in Complex Adaptive Systems Science
>>>>> Arizona State University
>>>>> 
>>>>> voice:  480-965-6262 (SHESC), 480-965-8130/727-9746 (CSDC)
>>>>> fax: 480-965-7671 (SHESC),  480-727-0709 (CSDC)
>>>>> www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton, http://csdc.asu.edu
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Aug 24, 2015, at 10:50 AM, Vaclav Petras <wenzeslaus at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Michael Barton <Michael.Barton at asu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> If I am understanding the compiling instructions correctly, it installs binaries of the open source LAStools and Liblas too. But I may misunderstand. The GRASS LAS tool set needs both I believe.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> GRASS GIS is fine just with the library. The expected library libLAS (http://www.liblas.org/) as far as I know.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm not sure what "open source LAStools" would be, some of the LAStools are perhaps open source but some are definitively not. In any case, GRASS GIS does not depend on any tools -- the ones related to libLAS nor the ones related LASlib.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Vaclav
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>> ____________________
>>>>>> C. Michael Barton
>>>>>> Director, Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
>>>>>> Professor of Anthropology, School of Human Evolution & Social Change
>>>>>> Head, Graduate Faculty in Complex Adaptive Systems Science
>>>>>> Arizona State University
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> voice:  480-965-6262 (SHESC), 480-965-8130/727-9746 (CSDC)
>>>>>> fax: 480-965-7671 (SHESC),  480-727-0709 (CSDC)
>>>>>> www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton, http://csdc.asu.edu
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Aug 24, 2015, at 10:29 AM, Newcomb, Doug <doug_newcomb at fws.gov> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Liblas or LASTools?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Doug
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Michael Barton <Michael.Barton at asu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>> Yes. The LAS tools are compiled for GDAL 1.10. They were a royal pain to compile. The instructions to the newest LAStools source code makes it sound like it is much easier now. Does anyone have any experience with the current version? I was going to try it but wanted to make sure I had a GRASS version out with at least a clunky working version before risking it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>> ____________________
>>>>>>> C. Michael Barton
>>>>>>> Director, Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
>>>>>>> Professor of Anthropology, School of Human Evolution & Social Change
>>>>>>> Head, Graduate Faculty in Complex Adaptive Systems Science
>>>>>>> Arizona State University
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> voice:  480-965-6262 (SHESC), 480-965-8130/727-9746 (CSDC)
>>>>>>> fax: 480-965-7671 (SHESC),  480-727-0709 (CSDC)
>>>>>>> www: http://www.public.asu.edu/~cmbarton, http://csdc.asu.edu
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Aug 24, 2015, at 9:56 AM, William Kyngesburye <woklist at kyngchaos.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Michael, you may need to recompile your las tools to use the current GDAL, this is separate from GRASS compilation.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Aug 24, 2015, at 10:31 AM, Michael Barton <Michael.Barton at asu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Anna,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> These work for me and at least some of my students here. So we need to find out why they don't work for you. I'm teaching spatial tech this fall and want to make sure others don't run into trouble. 7.0.1 was a completely fresh checkout and 7.1 was compiled after a make distclean.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Do you have any idea what causes this error? Did you install a new gdal? I compiled with William's most current version. I am still using stock Mac Python and wx version 2.8.12. Have you installed anything newer in the testing I saw on the list?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Michael Barton
>>>>>>>>> School of Human Evolution &Social Change
>>>>>>>>> Center for Social Dynamics & Complexity
>>>>>>>>> Arizona State University
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ...Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 24, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Anna Petrášová <kratochanna at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> sorry to report but the new binaries (70 and 71) don't work, the gui doesn't open with this error. I already saw this error multiple times and it might be enough just to make distclean and recompile or fresh svn checkout.
>>>>>>>>>> GRASS 7.1.svn (loc_ncarolina_spm_base0.3.1):~ > Traceback (most recent call last):
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> File "/Applications/GRASS-7.1.app/Contents/MacOS/gui/wxpython/wxgui.py", line 140, in <module>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>  sys.exit(main())
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> File "/Applications/GRASS-7.1.app/Contents/MacOS/gui/wxpython/wxgui.py", line 132, in main
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>  app = GMApp(workspaceFile)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> File "/Applications/GRASS-7.1.app/Contents/MacOS/gui/wxpython/wxgui.py", line 46, in __init__
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>  wx.App.__init__(self, False)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> File "/Applications/GRASS-7.1.app/Contents/MacOS/etc/python/wx/_core.py", line 7981, in __init__
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>  self._BootstrapApp()
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> File "/Applications/GRASS-7.1.app/Contents/MacOS/etc/python/wx/_core.py", line 7555, in _BootstrapApp
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>  return _core_.PyApp__BootstrapApp(*args, **kwargs)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> File "/Applications/GRASS-7.1.app/Contents/MacOS/gui/wxpython/wxgui.py", line 79, in OnInit
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>  from lmgr.frame import GMFrame
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> File "/Applications/GRASS-7.1.app/Contents/MacOS/gui/wxpython/lmgr/frame.py", line 50, in <module>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>  from lmgr.layertree        import LayerTree, LMIcons
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> File "/Applications/GRASS-7.1.app/Contents/MacOS/gui/wxpython/lmgr/layertree.py", line 37, in <module>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>  from mapdisp.frame        import MapFrame
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> File "/Applications/GRASS-7.1.app/Contents/MacOS/gui/wxpython/mapdisp/frame.py", line 34, in <module>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>  from vdigit.toolbars    import VDigitToolbar
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> File "/Applications/GRASS-7.1.app/Contents/MacOS/gui/wxpython/vdigit/toolbars.py", line 30, in <module>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>  from iclass.digit       import IClassVDigit
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> File "/Applications/GRASS-7.1.app/Contents/MacOS/gui/wxpython/iclass/digit.py", line 23, in <module>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>  from vdigit.wxdisplay import DisplayDriver, TYPE_AREA
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> ImportError: cannot import name TYPE_AREA
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Also, v.in.lidar or las2las (anything using liblas) doesn't work. I don't have GDAL 1.10, but 1.11.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> dyld: Library not loaded: /Library/Frameworks/GDAL.framework/Versions/1.10/GDAL
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Referenced from: /Applications/GRASS-7.1.app/Contents/MacOS/lib/liblas.2.2.0.dylib
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Reason: image not found
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Trace/BPT trap: 5
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> If you don't have time to look at it now, could you please post the GRASS 7.0.0 binary which I believe worked.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Anna
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>> William Kyngesburye <kyngchaos*at*kyngchaos*dot*com>
>>>>>>>> http://www.kyngchaos.com/
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> First Pogril: Why is life like sticking your head in a bucket filled with hyena offal?
>>>>>>>> Second Pogril: I don't know.  Why IS life like sticking your head in a bucket filled with hyena offal?
>>>>>>>> First Pogril: I don't know either.  Wretched, isn't it?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> grass-dev mailing list
>>>>>>> grass-dev at lists.osgeo.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/grass-dev
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Doug Newcomb
>>>>>>> USFWS
>>>>>>> Raleigh, NC
>>>>>>> 919-856-4520 ext. 14 doug_newcomb at fws.gov
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> The opinions I express are my own and are not representative of the official policy of the U.S.Fish and Wildlife Service or Dept. of the Interior.   Life is too short for undocumented, proprietary data formats.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> grass-dev mailing list
>>>>>> grass-dev at lists.osgeo.org
>>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/grass-dev
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> grass-dev mailing list
>>>> grass-dev at lists.osgeo.org
>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/grass-dev
>>> 
>>> -----
>>> William Kyngesburye <kyngchaos*at*kyngchaos*dot*com>
>>> http://www.kyngchaos.com/
>>> 
>>> "Time is an illusion - lunchtime doubly so."
>>> 
>>> - Ford Prefect
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> grass-dev mailing list
>> grass-dev at lists.osgeo.org
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/grass-dev
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Doug Newcomb
>> USFWS
>> Raleigh, NC
>> 919-856-4520 ext. 14 doug_newcomb at fws.gov
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The opinions I express are my own and are not representative of the official policy of the U.S.Fish and Wildlife Service or Dept. of the Interior.   Life is too short for undocumented, proprietary data formats.
> 