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<p>Hi Vaclav,</p>
<p>Thanks for the detailed response. I would still have a preference
for option 2, it being relative ease to implement, and providing
both a startup with and without command line. But all options
have their merits for sure.<br>
</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Paulo<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9-9-2020 05:32, Vaclav Petras wrote:<br>
</div>
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cite="mid:CABo5uVs83-Miu-8n-iRf3WkuYJ0DeEGeUy4-zEjwN49gySauVw@mail.gmail.com">
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<div>Hi Paulo,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I explained better options 3-5 and responded to the rest.<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 6:03
AM Paulo van Breugel <<a
href="mailto:p.vanbreugel@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">p.vanbreugel@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<div>On 06-09-2020 05:05, Vaclav Petras wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<div>When you start GRASS GIS now, it always also
starts with a system terminal window which has a
shell which has modified prompt and history. What
I'm proposing is to make this opt-in, i.e., a user
will have to take an action in order to get this
terminal.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If there is no terminal by default, only users
who actually want that will get it which means that
the users who don't ask for it don't have to wonder
what that is or what is the relation between
terminal and GUI. This may clarify some of the
first-time user confusion such as "once i open the
grass gis console...it opens another application
called layer manager" [1]. For those who don't use
the terminal, this would also simplify all the exit
and switch mapset situations such as "Close GUI"
versus "Quit GRASS GIS". Users starting GRASS GIS
from a terminal won't be affected by it. Users who
want to use GRASS GIS from terminal could just start
GRASS GIS from terminal.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
On my Windows computer, I have installed GRASS using
OSGeo4W. OSGeo4W comes with a shell from which I can start
grass. Is that true for the stand alone installer as well?<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I hope others will comment on the current state and
possibilities on Windows and macOS.</div>
<div><br>
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<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>1. Have terminal started when GRASS GIS is
started from a desktop launcher such as the Start
menu on Windows. This is the current behavior in 7.8
plus the fix of requiring a terminal if it is not
present, i.e. in cases such as the Atl+F2 on Linux,
you will get GRASS GIS without a terminal.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2. Remove the terminal from desktop launchers so
that GRASS GIS starts without the terminal when
started in the GUI way. When a user starts GRASS GIS
using a command from an existing terminal, there is
no change from the current behavior: a (sub-)shell
is started and possibly GUI launches.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>This would be my (strong) preference, serves both
experienced users who like to work from the terminal and
novices well. The fact that it doesn't take much work is
a bonus <br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I like this one too. It is quite doable and it seems
natural. You start from the "system GUI", you get a standard
GUI application. You start from the terminal, you get both
as you are getting now (and can disable the GUI if you want
to with --text).<br>
</div>
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<p> </p>
<p> </p>
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<div><br>
</div>
<div>3. The same as option 2 (no terminal from desktop
launchers, shell from terminal), but only when the
GUI will allow to start a terminal application using
a menu entry.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Not sure I understand this option - you mean to say
that one can only start the terminal from the GUI? If
so, I don't see the advantage of this option.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well, that would be an option. It would then behave like
RStudio or VS Code (see, e.g., Steven Pawley's email) which
you could count as an advantage.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What I meant was everything in option 2, but going with
it only in case the menu entry in GRASS GIS is also
available.<br>
</div>
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<p> </p>
<p> </p>
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<div><br>
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<div>4. Make the shell start only in the text mode
(grass --text) or with a new additional option
(--shell), i.e., you get it, only when you actually
ask for it. In other words, with --text, GRASS GIS
would behave more like R or Octave, without that
(with --gui), it would behave more like QGIS or any
other GUI application. (This includes the no
terminal from desktop launchers from option 2.)<br>
</div>
</div>
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<p><br>
</p>
<p>I am not sure I fully understand this option, but if it
means one has to choose, terminal <u>or</u> GUI, I
would be very much against this option. I very often use
both (and often enough in combination with R starting
from the command line). I know I could use the console,
but I don't find that near as convenient as working from
the terminal. And what would be the added value of this
option?<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You would not have to choose one or another as you can
start GUI from the terminal with g.gui. The Console in GUI
cannot run an interactive program like R, so that would not
suffice, but starting a shell only is perfectly good for
starting GUI, R, or both afterwards.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It also does not mean you cannot ask for both. Closest to
the current implementation is --text starts only shell while
--gui starts only GUI, but you could also allow combining
these two to start both or have additional --shell which
starts the (sub-)shell even when --gui was provided.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The nice thing about this option is that it doesn't do
anything unexpected. It is not trying to guess that the user
may want to use the terminal. It starts GUI with one option
combo (and by default) and a (sub-)shell with another (or
possibly both with yet another combo). From a slightly
different point of view, it puts the two behaviors into two
categories, with --text GRASS GIS is a command line
application like R or Octave, with --gui, it is a GUI
application like QGIS or RStudio with not much happening in
the terminal.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If (additionally) combining --text and --gui is not
allowed, it removes all problems of syncing between GUI and
the shell which needs to be partially implemented in the
shell and that is different for each shell. See e.g. the PR
and commits below, but there is more.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Update mapset and simplify shell prompts</div>
<div><a href="https://github.com/OSGeo/grass/pull/923"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/OSGeo/grass/pull/923</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Change the history file according to the current mapset
for Bash</div>
<div><a href="https://github.com/OSGeo/grass/pull/930"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/OSGeo/grass/pull/930</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Close wxGUI on GRASS CLI exit</div>
<div><a
href="https://github.com/OSGeo/grass/commit/98e289afa94da6f9aa93953774e4169e9f42f69e"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/OSGeo/grass/commit/98e289afa94da6f9aa93953774e4169e9f42f69e</a></div>
<div> </div>
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<div>5. The same as option 4 (shell only with --text
or --shell), but only when the GUI will allow to
start a terminal application using a menu entry as
in option 3.</div>
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<p><br>
</p>
<p>Idem to above<br>
</p>
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<div><br>
</div>
<div>All from option 4, but combining --text and --gui is for
sure allowed and we would follow with this only when
starting terminal from GUI is possible (like in option 3).
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Vaclav<br>
</div>
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