[Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI

Tue Mar 3 00:18:21 PST 2015

Hi,

2015-03-03 7:13 GMT+01:00 Even Rouault <even.rouault at spatialys.com> wrote:
> Hi Cameron,
...
> Currently there's no finalized conformance test suite available for GeoPackage
> to test implementations, so there's no official reference implementation or
> conformant implementations.

I'd wish Scott or somebody from OGC could comment on this (and this
thread in general).

>> * It is probably not appropriate for OSGeo as an organisation to
>> directly point out ESRI's lack of support for GeoPackage write capability.
>
> I agree. The best marketing, if needed, would be to point at our
> implementations that do support write capability.

Be aware that it's not only read/write support one should report and
request in order to make a standard format an alternative to
Shapefiles.
For ArcGIS it's also edit capabilities (for whatever reason...).

Yours, S.

2015-03-03 7:13 GMT+01:00 Even Rouault <even.rouault at spatialys.com>:
> Hi Cameron,
>
>> It is difficult for OSGeo to stop a vendor from promoting their product,
>> or promoting a specific lock in strategy.
>
> Of course. That was exactly my point.
>
>>
>> But we can:
>> * Support the OGC in developing an OGC standard for LiDAR. Once a
>> standard is in place, there is a much stronger reason to make use of
>> that Open Standard. In particular, many national government agencies
>> have policies which promote standards over proprietary interfaces.
>
> With my mostly uninformed eyes in that topic, I don't know if OGC is the most
> relevant organization in that matter. It seems that the ASPRS would be a more
> natural host as it has already published the spec of the (uncompressed) LAS
> format:
> http://www.asprs.org/Committee-General/LASer-LAS-File-Format-Exchange-
> Activities.html
>
> I'm not sure about the LASzip format however, the compressed one, which is the
> one that ESRI has "cloned" into zLAS. I skimmed through http://www.laszip.org/
> and couldn't find a reference to something more formal than LGPL code that
> implements it ;-)
>
>>
>> * Provide a position statement (as has been suggested) which explains
>> technically the pros and cons of both the proprietary and open LiDAR
>> interface.
>
> There are at least a few persons in the OSGeo community that have direct
> interest in LiDAR and are likely reading this thread. Perhaps some discussions
> are already happening behind the scene ?
>
>>
>> Regarding OGC GeoPackage standard:
>> * I would hope that OGC's list of standards supported has a tick for
>> read only, and tick for read/write support, so consumers can tell the
>> difference.
>
> Currently there's no finalized conformance test suite available for GeoPackage
> to test implementations, so there's no official reference implementation or
> conformant implementations. I guess the conformance test suite would be
> similar to the KML one, in that you submit a file, and it is validated. So it
> "proves" that you can write a conformant file. Funnily, read-only
> implementations could not get the stamp!
>
>> * It is probably not appropriate for OSGeo as an organisation to
>> directly point out ESRI's lack of support for GeoPackage write capability.
>
> I agree. The best marketing, if needed, would be to point at our
> implementations that do support write capability.
>
>> * However, it is totally appropriate for individuals and news agencies
>> to write about it.
>>
>> On 2/03/2015 9:37 pm, Even Rouault wrote:
>> > Stefan,
>> >
>> > That a proprietary vendor decides not to implement a standard in its
>> > products is mainly its problem (as well as the one of its customers).
>> > Especially as they are plenty of FOSS alternatives that implement the
>> > standard! So I'd say it is a selling point for FOSS.
>> >
>> > The annoying thing here is that a proprietary vendor aggressively pushes
>> > his *closed* format and tries to undermine an open format implemented by
>> > FOSS. So it really harms the FOSS community. In that matter, the
>> > Geoservices REST API episode would have been less critical as the
>> > protocol had been at least opened...
>> >
>> > Even
>> >
>> >> Dear all, dear OSGeo Board
>> >>
>> >> While supporting this LAS related initiative I'd like to draw your
>> >> attention to a potentially similar use case which is at least of same
>> >> relevance:
>> >>
>> >> In April 2014 Esri officially announced support for >> GeoPackage <<
>> >> vector in version 10.2.2 and raster in 10.3:
>> >> http://blogs.esri.com/esri/arcgis/2014/04/14/support-for-ogc-geopackages
>> >> -in -arcgis/ ("Support for OGC GeoPackage in ArcGIS")
>> >>
>> >> Now Esri support confirmed that in ArcgIS Desktop 10.3 only read-only
>> >> access is possible. So, there's still no write nor edit capability
>> >> (and no ArcGIS Server no Runtime) despite this FAQ:
>> >> http://support.esri.com/en/knowledgebase/techarticles/detail/42567
>> >> ("What versions of the OGC GeoPackage standard are supported?")
>> >>
>> >> I'm still looking for an answer for an "Enhancement Request" but I'm
>> >> really concerned about Esri's commitment to (promised OGC) standards.
>> >>
>> >> Yours, S.
>> >>
>> >> 2015-03-01 22:38 GMT+01:00 Suchith Anand
> <Suchith.Anand at nottingham.ac.uk>:
>> >>> Colleagues,
>> >>>
>> >>> I see these kind of developments also directly affecting Open
>> >>> Principles in Geo Education that "Geo for All" , OSGeo, ICA all stand
>> >>> for and are working together in our common mission of making
>> >>> geospatial education and opportunities accessible to all.
>> >>>
>> >>> "Geo for All" will take a stand on this as it not only affects our
>> >>> Academic colleagues and students working in LIDAR research and teaching
>> >>> but will have long term impacts on Open Principles in Geo Education. We
>> >>> will work to put our ideas in the Open Letter from OSGeo explaining
>> >>> this.
>> >>>
>> >>> "Geo for All" started from very humble beginnings and this was only
>> >>> possible because academic colleagues globally came together to change
>> >>> the status of Geo education. For decades even though there was great
>> >>> progress in GIS technologies, educational opportunities esp. in
>> >>> developing and poor countries were very small. This is now changing
>> >>> dramatically thanks to the efforts of our colleagues from Nepal to
>> >>> Uruguay.
>> >>>
>> >>> We got excellent support from all sectors (universities, industry ,
>> >>> governments etc) but to my surprise ESRI was the only proprietary
>> >>> vendor who was trying  to undermine this initiative indirectly from
>> >>> the very start. I still cannot understand why this particular vendor
>> >>> wants to do that. I really hope the proprietors of this company will
>> >>> also support Open Principles in Geo Education (not just telling
>> >>> externally on Openness but actually practicing this). We want to have
>> >>> good relations with everyone in the Geospatial domain , so our hand of
>> >>> friendship is always open. So please let us all work together.
>> >>>
>> >>> Hardware costs are (and will) keep coming down, internet access is
>> >>> increasing (and will keep  increasing)  even in developing countries
>> >>> and with free and open source software, even poor schools in
>> >>> developing countries are getting small computer labs established ( i
>> >>> know this from my experience in India) .The convergence of all these
>> >>> factors with a great team of dedicated people is changing geoeducation
>> >>> forever.
>> >>>
>> >>> I strongly believe access of good quality education is everyones
>> >>> birthright and now we are for first time in history getting opportunity
>> >>> to make this possible. We will not accept putting artificial barriers
>> >>> like high cost proprietary software (which quite frankly they won't be
>> >>> able to even think of affording) which will continue denying quality
>> >>> education opportunities for millions of students globally (both in
>> >>> developed and developing countries).
>> >>>
>> >>> So why should i care? Because i learned one of the most important
>> >>> lessons in my life in my childhood from my grandmother (who though did
>> >>> not get the opportunity of "proper education" herself taught me the
>> >>> importance of the values of  sharing and about  "Vasudeva Kudumbam"
>> >>> which means "We all belong to one large Universal family" and " Geo
>> >>> for All" is for my Universal family and i will do everything in my
>> >>> abilities to make sure education opportunities are open to all.
>> >>>
>> >>> Best wishes,
>> >>>
>> >>> Suchith
>> >>>
>> >>> ________________________________________
>> >>> From: ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
>> >>> [ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Shorter
>> >>> [cameron.shorter at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 7:37 PM
>> >>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); Paul Ramsey; Carl Reed
>> >>> Cc: P Kishor; Scott Simmons; ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org
>> >>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]  The LAS format,
>> >>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>> >>>
>> >>> What would strengthen a position for use of Open LIDAR interfaces would
>> >>> be if such an Open LIDAR interface were introduced into the OGC
>> >>> standards program.
>> >>>
>> >>> Carl,
>> >>> I'd be interested to hear you (or someone else from the OGC) explain
>> >>> how people should approach initiating an Open LIDAR standard, and how
>> >>> much effort / cost would be required to do so.
>> >>>
>> >>> The OSGeo community can then assess whether there is sufficient
>> >>> motivation to initiate such development of a standard.
>> >>>
>> >>> Patrick,
>> >>> For an Open Letter from OSGeo, it would be a very powerful statement if
>> >>> we can list a number of influential organisations who will commit to
>> >>> developing an open, interoperable standard. (This can be a section of
>> >>> the open letter with signatures).
>> >>>
>> >>> On 2/03/2015 4:57 am, Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX) wrote:
>> >>>> Paul,
>> >>>> I would care to refine the 'yawn' context of 'doing the right thing,'
>> >>>> that of standing up to actions that directly contravene an
>> >>>> organization's 'open exchange' mission. This would seem the kind of
>> >>>> *engaged integrity* quite apart from one deserving a yawn. If your
>> >>>> kids do something directly contrary to what the family needs for a
>> >>>> healthy exchange of information, if a yawn is the response, there are
>> >>>> even more serious issues at stake. -Patrick
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: Paul Ramsey [mailto:pramsey at cleverelephant.ca]
>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 9:32 AM
>> >>>> To: Carl Reed
>> >>>> Cc: Cameron Shorter; P Kishor; Suchith Anand; Scott Simmons; OSGeo
>> >>>> Discussions; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX); OSGeo-Board;
>> >>>> ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss]
>> >>>> [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by
>> >>>> ESRI
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Carl,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> No, it doesn't really clarify it. I think what people are wondering is
>> >>>> "does OGC have a default mission and position that closed formats are
>> >>>> bad for the industry and would it publicly admonish a member who took
>> >>>> actions that ran counter to that position".  I assume that, as a
>> >>>> "member driven organization" whose membership includes the offender,
>> >>>> the OGC will not be standing up and publicly saying "this company is
>> >>>> contravening the spirit of our organization and mission, that it is
>> >>>> supposedly supportive of".
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Am I incorrect?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> WRT to OSGeo, I think that black letter cases like this come along
>> >>>> infrequently enough that it would not be at all inappropriate for
>> >>>> OSGeo to publicly state what is wrong with the direction being taken
>> >>>> in the world of LAS formats. The only trouble is, it's exactly what
>> >>>> everyone expects we would do, and therefore will be greeted with a
>> >>>> collective yawn. But it is the right thing, so we should still do it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ATB,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> P.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:23 AM, Carl Reed <creed at opengeospatial.org>
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >>>>> All -
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The OGC is not currently involved in activities related to defining
>> >>>>> or maintaining LIDAR specific modeling and related encoding
>> >>>>> standards. Any work the OGC has been doing WRT LIDAR is within the
>> >>>>> context of processing, visualization, and analytics. Obviously,
>> >>>>> existing OGC standards such as WCS and GMLJP2 can be used to encode
>> >>>>> and share small, processed LIDAR data sets. Feel free to check OGC
>> >>>>> email archives, project pages, and so forth for documentation on any
>> >>>>> ongoing discussions in the OGC related to LIDAR.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> http://www.opengeospatial.org/pub/www/ows9/innovations.html : The
>> >>>>> thread participants looked at NITF, LIDAR, and DAP/OPeNDAP, and
>> >>>>> investigated their re-implementation in an OWS environment with a
>> >>>>> focus on the Web.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> or
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> http://koenigstuhl.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/publications/bonn/conferenc
>> >>>>> e /LanigGeoinformatik09.pdf
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> for examples.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Hope this clarifies the current OGC position.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Regards
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Carl
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Suchith Anand
>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 4:20 AM
>> >>>>> To: Cameron Shorter ; P Kishor ; Suchith Anand
>> >>>>> Cc: discuss at lists.osgeo.org ; Hogan, Patrick(ARC-PX) ;
>> >>>>> board at lists.osgeo.org ; ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Board] [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format,
>> >>>>> the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Hi Cameron,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thank you for this excellent suggestion. I remember this previous
>> >>>>> Geoservices REST API issues and discussions.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Patrick - Could you please start a wiki page and input as much
>> >>>>> information as you know on this (ideally in the same structure as the
>> >>>>> Geoservices REST API wiki ). Once it is ready, please email the
>> >>>>> community and OSGeo Board and we all can look into this.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Anyone from OGC willing to help with this?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I think this should be open letter from the OSGeo Board to the whole
>> >>>>> Geo community. I really hope this proprietary vendor (ESRI) will be
>> >>>>> decent enough to not keep repeating these inappropriate actions in
>> >>>>> the future.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Best wishes,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Suchith
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ________________________________________
>> >>>>> From: Cameron Shorter [cameron.shorter at gmail.com]
>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 10:47 AM
>> >>>>> To: P Kishor; Suchith Anand
>> >>>>> Cc: discuss at lists.osgeo.org; Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>> >>>>> board at lists.osgeo.org; ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the
>> >>>>> ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Patrick, others,
>> >>>>> OSGeo and related OGC communities have been successful previously in
>> >>>>> stopping ESRI's inappropriate creation of OGC standards. See here:
>> >>>>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Geoservices_REST_API
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I'd suggest that if we as OSGeo wish to be effective at blocking a
>> >>>>> vendor lock-in tactic, as seems to be the case, then we should
>> >>>>> consider developing a similar wiki page for the LAS format debate.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> 0. Write an open letter (who to? OGC?) 1. Describe the issue. (Is
>> >>>>> there someone who knows the issues well enough to describe them?) 2.
>> >>>>> Describe technically why one format is or is not better than the
>> >>>>> other, on both a technical and commercial point of view.
>> >>>>> 3. Is the Open LIDAR format an OGC standard?
>> >>>>> 4. If needed, collect signatures.
>> >>>>> 5. If needed, ask OSGeo Board to present the open letter
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On 28/02/2015 11:18 am, P Kishor wrote:
>> >>>>> Thanks Patrick for surfacing this. Yes, this should be opened up for
>> >>>>> scrutiny by the entire community and we should all weigh in.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Suchith Anand
>> >>>>> <Suchith.Anand at nottingham.ac.uk<mailto:Suchith.Anand at nottingham.ac.uk
>> >>>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>> Hi Patrick,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I believe the OSGeo Board
>> >>>>> need to look into this and prepare a position paper with inputs from
>> >>>>> the community as this has wider implications. This also need to be
>> >>>>> discussed with like minded organisations. We all can provide the
>> >>>>> needed support for this.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Jeff and OSGeo Board - please add this to the next month Board
>> >>>>> meeting's agenda items. Thanks.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Best wishes,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Suchith
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ________________________________________
>> >>>>> From:
>> >>>>> ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
>> >>>>> l ists.osgeo.org>
>> >>>>> [ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces
>> >>>>> @ lists.osgeo.org>] On Behalf Of Lene Fischer
>> >>>>> [lfi at ign.ku.dk<mailto:lfi at ign.ku.dk>]
>> >>>>> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 6:29 PM
>> >>>>> To: Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX);
>> >>>>> ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org>
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ
>> >>>>> clone” by ESRI
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> +1
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Lene Fischer
>> >>>>> Associate Professor
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Department of Geosciences and Natural Resource Management University
>> >>>>> of Copenhagen
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> MOB +45 40115084<tel:%2B45%2040115084>
>> >>>>> lfi at ign.ku.dk<mailto:lfi at ign.ku.dk><mailto:lfi at ign.ku.dk<mailto:lfi at i
>> >>>>> g n.ku.dk>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> [cid:image001.gif at 01D052C3.B23B1060]
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Fra:
>> >>>>> ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces@
>> >>>>> l ists.osgeo.org>
>> >>>>> [mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-bounces at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs-
>> >>>>> b ounces at lists.osgeo.org>]
>> >>>>> På vegne af Hogan, Patrick (ARC-PX)
>> >>>>> Sendt: 27. februar 2015 18:48
>> >>>>> Til:
>> >>>>> ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:ica-osgeo-labs at lists.osgeo.org>
>> >>>>> Emne: [Ica-osgeo-labs] The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone”
>> >>>>> by ESRI
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Dear OSGEO,
>> >>>>> For what our good name is worth. . .
>> >>>>> Do we have an opinion on something so essential as an open standard
>> >>>>> for a data format?
>> >>>>> Speak now, or forever hand over your wallet. Individual and
>> >>>>> collective response encouraged.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Can OSGEO provide a short position paper commenting on our values?
>> >>>>> I.e., “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all [data] are
>> >>>>> created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
>> >>>>> unalienable Rights, that among these [is Life, Liberty and the
>> >>>>> pursuit of Openness].”
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The LAS format, the ASPRS, and the “LAZ clone” by ESRI
>> >>>>> http://rapidlasso.com/2015/02/22/lidar-las-asprs-esri-and-the-laz-clo
>> >>>>> n e/
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> [First paragraph]
>> >>>>> We are concerned about ESRI’s next moves in forcing yet another
>> >>>>> proprietary format into wide-spread deployment. Forwarded emails,
>> >>>>> retold conversations, and personal experiences suggest that sneaky
>> >>>>> tactics<http://rapidlasso.com/2014/11/06/keeping-esri-honest/> are
>> >>>>> being used to disrupt the harmony in open LiDAR formats that we have
>> >>>>> enjoyed for many years.
>> >>>>> [cid:image002.jpg at 01D052C3.B23B1060]
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thanks much,
>> >>>>> -Patrick
>> >>>>> Project Manager
>> >>>>> NASA World Wind
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Puneet Kishor
>> >>>>> Manager, Science and Data Policy
>> >>>>> Creative Commons
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Discuss mailing list
>> >>>>> Discuss at lists.osgeo.org<mailto:Discuss at lists.osgeo.org>
>> >>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Cameron Shorter,
>> >>>>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>> >>>>> LISAsoft
>> >>>>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>> >>>>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com<http://www.lisasoft.com>,  F
>> >>>>> +61 2
>> >>>>> 9009 5099
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
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>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
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>> >>>>>
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>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Board mailing list
>> >>>>> Board at lists.osgeo.org
>> >>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> Board mailing list
>> >>>>> Board at lists.osgeo.org
>> >>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Cameron Shorter,
>> >>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>> >>> LISAsoft
>> >>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>> >>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>> >>>
>> >>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>>
>> >>>
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