[Incubator] Re: Is rasdaman suitable/ready for OSGeo incubation?

Seven (aka Arnulf) seven at arnulf.us
Thu Dec 9 11:35:10 EST 2010

Hash: SHA1

Peter Baumann wrote:
> Hi all,
> a PS on the "bus factor": "Commentators have noted that the vanilla
> Linux kernel <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel> tree's bus
> factor may be as low as one: the project's founder and chief architect,
> Linus Torvalds <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds>^
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor#cite_note-Linus-0> ".  Source:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor
> I guess for git it might be similar.
> cheers,
> Peter

Yes, but both Linux and git probably have a just slightly broader user
and developer base than rasdaman. Meaning that if one of their project
head got lost there will not really be a lack for brains to fill the
void. You can probably best judge whether you are already replaceable or
still need to work on it. :-)

Have fun,

> On 12/08/2010 08:50 PM, Peter Baumann wrote:
>> Hi Arnulf,
>> responses inline:
>> On 12/08/2010 08:09 PM, Seven (aka Arnulf) wrote:
> Peter Baumann wrote:
>>>>> Cameron-
>>>>> you have suggested to remove all references to the commercial
>>>>> support of
>>>>> rasdaman from the rasdaman.org site.
>>>>> How does this compare to PostGIS?
>>>>> - On the main page PostGIS states ". Ask us
>>>>> <mailto:info at refractions.net>  about consulting services
>>>>> <http://www.refractions.net/products/postgis/>  and implementing new
>>>>> features."
>>>>> - On http://www.postgis.org/support/ 2 companies are listed as
>>>>> commercial support providers.
>>>>> Thanks for explaining,
>>>>> Peter
> Peter,
> it is perfectly fine to reference commercially operating businesses who
> can provide services. I have no problem with this type of information
> showing up on the front page of the project.
> But I do have a bit of a problem with the naming. It is awkward that the
> name of the company is identical to that of the software project. The
> only differentiation is in the TLD extension org/com (but this is not
> worth a dime either since some of our friends use .org to do .com). It
> does not make things easier that rasdaman.org points to the longish
> university URL http://rasdaman.eecs.jacobs-university.de/trac/rasdaman
>>> this has a technical reason; I could use frame-based forwarding (have
>>> done so earlier), but this has some ugly effects and generally is not
>>> considered a good practice. But "rasdaman" appearing so often in this
>>> URL it should not pose a problem beyond cosmetics :)
> The separation between software (as in deegree) and main contributing
> company (here: lat/lon) is well distinguishable. If you don't do this
> the name and brand of an otherwise perfectly Open Source project can end
> up in strange places (see MySQL).
> - From a maturity point of view it seems that the rasdaman *community*
> still needs some time to grow, including a more diverse set of
> developers. The bus-factor of rasdaman currently seems to be quite high.
> A reference ot the affiliation of the folks committing to the project
> can help to show the current status:
> http://rasdaman.eecs.jacobs-university.de/trac/rasdaman/wiki/Contributors
>>> that's a splendid idea!
> One easy way to get more of this type of stats for other people to look
> into is by sticking rasdaman into http://www.ohloh.net/
>>> wow, it took me quite some time to find out what this is about. This
>>> is interesting, but for the moment being too much extra overhead
>>> unfortunately. Patch shuffling and code production and maintaining
>>> external relations etc. But I will definitely keep this in mind, a
>>> good hint.
>>> cheers,
>>> Peter
> Best regards,
> Arnulf.
>>>>> On 12/06/2010 10:14 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote:
>>>>>> Thank you Pieter,
>>>>>> I think your comments are very valuable, especially as the path you
>>>>>> followed is similar to what Peter is proposing. (Ie a business
>>>>>> building an Open Source project from scratch, rather than an
>>>>>> volunteers who convert a hobby project into a robust business model).
>>>>>> Peter, if Pieter is willing, I expect you would do well to pick his
>>>>>> brain for ideas on building your our marketing strategy and business
>>>>>> model. (Geomajas have done a great job with their marketing).
>>>>>> On 6/12/2010 6:31 PM, Pieter De Graef wrote:
>>>>>>> I believe your situation resembles mine a bit (2 years ago). When
>>>>>>> Geosparc was founded to support the Open Source project Geomajas,
>>>>>>> there where people from only 2 companies behind the project. We too
>>>>>>> had it quite difficult in the beginning to attract people.
>>>>>>> I believe what you need to do is make the intentions of your company
>>>>>>> as clear as possible, and make sure the Open Source project is a
>>>>>>> stand-alone project.
>>>>>>> On the Geomajas website, you will have a hard time looking for the
>>>>>>> Geosparc name. We made sure that the Geomajas website was 100%
>>>>>>> community based, and even though in the beginning there hardly was
>>>>>>> any community, now there is.
>>>>>>> It could be me, but when I see services etc on the main page, it does
>>>>>>> not give me the impression of being a stand-alone project. Although
>>>>>>> this is just an impression, don't forget perception is king. Of
>>>>>>> course I'm known to be mistaken every now and then.
>>>>>>> Op 4/12/2010 4:30, Cameron Shorter schreef:
>>>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>>> The (possibly incorrect) understanding I have is that you, being one
>>>>>>>> person, have been the central driver behind rasdaman, sometimes
>>>>>>>> under the banner of the university and sometimes under your company.
>>>>>>>> However, my key concern from OSGeo's point of view is that the
>>>>>>>> current link with a proprietary license will hinder growth of a
>>>>>>>> robust community.
>>>>>>>> Other OSGeo Incubation members may suggest otherwise.
>>>>>>>> On 04/12/10 13:51, Baumann, Peter wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Cameron,
>>>>>>>>> thanks for all the effort and serious considerations put into your
>>>>>>>>> looking at rasdaman. I am very grateful about our discussion -
>>>>>>>>> among others, it has shown me that the description provided on
>>>>>>>>> www.rasdaman.org needs refinement and clarification. I have
>>>>>>>>> attempted to go into that immediately with the "feature matrix" as
>>>>>>>>> a start, but other places will have to undergo a check as well.
>>>>>>>>> About the licensing, let me correct some false impression. The
>>>>>>>>> open-source rasdaman code is _not_ maintained by a company, but by
>>>>>>>>> a university. So the conclusion that further development of
>>>>>>>>> rasdaman would depend on one company is wrong in two respects:
>>>>>>>>> - it is not one, but two entities supporting rasdaman
>>>>>>>>> - it is not a company which is the main promoter of open source
>>>>>>>>> rasdaman, but a university
>>>>>>>>> Hope that helps to clarify situation a bit. I feel it very fruitful
>>>>>>>>> that now we have come to a discussion, hope we can continue this
>>>>>>>>> fruitful exchange.
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> From: Cameron Shorter [cameron.shorter at gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 12:40 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Baumann, Peter; Bruce Bannerman; OSGeo-incubator
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Is rasdaman suitable/ready for OSGeo incubation?
>>>>>>>>> I had the pleasure this week of meeting Peter Baumann, the primary
>>>>>>>>> author behind rasdaman [1], a dual licensed raster processing
>>>>>>>>> application. Along with Bruce Bannerman, we discussed rasdaman's
>>>>>>>>> application for OSGeo application (initiated 18 months ago).
>>>>>>>>> Understandably, Peter noted some frustration by the lack of
>>>>>>>>> progress
>>>>>>>>> moving toward OSGeo Incubation.
>>>>>>>>> Since talking to Peter, I've looked at rasdaman further, and think
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> rasdaman has some great functionality, but I'm concerned that the
>>>>>>>>> current dual license will hamper uptake from the open source
>>>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>>>> Radaman is provided via an open source community edition, and
>>>>>>>>> then has
>>>>>>>>> extensions which are in a proprietary enterprise edition. [2] My
>>>>>>>>> concern
>>>>>>>>> is the dual license will substantially reduce the number of
>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>> prepared to grow the rasdaman developer community, as there will
>>>>>>>>> be a
>>>>>>>>> feeling that the prime developer will only maintain and advance the
>>>>>>>>> enterprise version.
>>>>>>>>> One of the key goals for incubation is to build a robust developer
>>>>>>>>> community, with contributors from multiple organisations, and to
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> the project grow sustainably. As it stands, I think that rasdaman's
>>>>>>>>> licence model will make the project dependent upon the organisation
>>>>>>>>> offering the enterprise software, which is counter to some of OSGeo
>>>>>>>>> principles.
>>>>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>>>> I understand the challenge of finding a suitable business model and
>>>>>>>>> deciding whether to go down the proprietary or open source
>>>>>>>>> route. Yes,
>>>>>>>>> with Open Source you do get significant marketing reach and having
>>>>>>>>> others share development costs. Alternatively, with proprietary,
>>>>>>>>> you can
>>>>>>>>> charge for software. If you wish to try to achieve both, then
>>>>>>>>> you will
>>>>>>>>> likely end up having to write most/all software yourself, which
>>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>> align with OSGeo goals of building a robust developer community.
>>>>>>>>> This may be a reason why people on the incubation committee have
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> pushed rasdaman forward further.
>>>>>>>>> If you wish to continue with OSGeo incubation, I would suggest
>>>>>>>>> considering adjusting your licence model.
>>>>>>>>> [1] http://rasdaman.eecs.jacobs-university.de/trac/rasdaman
>>>>>>>>> [2]
>>>>>>>>> http://rasdaman.eecs.jacobs-university.de/trac/rasdaman/wiki/Features
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Cameron Shorter
>>>>>>>>> Geospatial Director
>>>>>>>>> Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050
>>>>>>>>> Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254
>>>>>>>>> Think Globally, Fix Locally
>>>>>>>>> Geospatial Solutions enhanced with Open Standards and Open Source
>>>>>>>>> http://www.lisasoft.com
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Incubator mailing list
>>>>> Incubator at lists.osgeo.org
>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator
> -- Arnulf Christl
> Exploring Space, Time and Mind
> http://arnulf.us

- --
Arnulf Christl

Exploring Space, Time and Mind
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