From cameron.shorter at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 00:41:33 2006 From: cameron.shorter at gmail.com (Cameron Shorter) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:40 2006 Subject: Roll Call Message-ID: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> Hello, Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. For me: Cameron Shorter, from http://communitymapbuilder.org . My hope is that this list can be used for representatives from webmapping projects to share design and code and help each other address common problems. I hope that before we start new modules we consult with each other and avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should be able to identify and factor out common libraries. -- Cameron Shorter http://cameron.shorter.net From bartvde at xs4all.nl Thu Apr 6 01:28:25 2006 From: bartvde at xs4all.nl (Bart van den Eijnden) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:40 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4874.145.50.39.8.1144301305.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi Cameron, Bart van den Eijnden, OSGIS (i.e. freelancer) in Netherlands, mainly involved with Chameleon right now, but with an interest in Mapbuilder and also ka-Map. Best regards, Bart > Hello, > Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. > Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. > > For me: Cameron Shorter, from http://communitymapbuilder.org . > > My hope is that this list can be used for representatives from > webmapping projects to share design and code and help each other > address common problems. > > I hope that before we start new modules we consult with each other and > avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should be able to identify > and factor out common libraries. > > -- > Cameron Shorter > http://cameron.shorter.net > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > > From aaronkoning at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 01:49:24 2006 From: aaronkoning at gmail.com (Aaron Koning) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:40 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1319fbba0604052249w3e3ce856q76ee028079397649@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, Aaron Koning from Prince George, BC, Canada. I work out of the University of Northern British Columbia (UNBC) and maintain the Flexible Internet Spatial Template (FIST) and GCTP JavaScript Edition (GCTP-JS) software packages among other things. My interests include: web development, database technologies, computer programming, open source software and GIS. Web-mapping allows me to explore all these topics and more! Aaron +-------------------------------------------- | Aaron Koning | Information Technologist | Prince George, BC, Canada. +-------------------------------------------- | http://datashare.gis.unbc.ca/fist/ | http://datashare.gis.unbc.ca/gctp-js/ +-------------------------------------------- On 4/5/06, Cameron Shorter wrote: > > Hello, > Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. > Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. > > For me: Cameron Shorter, from http://communitymapbuilder.org . > > My hope is that this list can be used for representatives from > webmapping projects to share design and code and help each other > address common problems. > > I hope that before we start new modules we consult with each other and > avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should be able to identify > and factor out common libraries. > > -- > Cameron Shorter > http://cameron.shorter.net > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/mail_webmap-discuss/attachments/20060405/96ad28b4/attachment.html From andrew at andrewlarcombe.co.uk Thu Apr 6 04:54:34 2006 From: andrew at andrewlarcombe.co.uk (Andrew Larcombe) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:40 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <1319fbba0604052249w3e3ce856q76ee028079397649@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> <1319fbba0604052249w3e3ce856q76ee028079397649@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4434D74A.7070909@andrewlarcombe.co.uk> Hi there, Andrew Larcombe, freelance geospatial software developer based in the UK. I produce geospatial solutions for clients using everything from GRASS to GDAL to MapServer to ArcMap to Google Maps... Cheers, Andrew From p_mergen at yahoo.com Thu Apr 6 05:25:32 2006 From: p_mergen at yahoo.com (Patricia Mergen) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:40 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060406092532.67060.qmail@web61114.mail.yahoo.com> Hello My name is Patricia Mergen. I am working for the Royal Museum for Central Africa in Tervuren, Belgium. Several of my collaborators and myself are involved in EU projects in the field of Biodiversity Informatics. These projects are strongly Open Source oriented and haveGIS components, mainly for Species distribution and sharing of this information for conservation issues among stakeholders. To keep best informed on ongoing activities and to avoid reinventing the wheel, I am following disscussion on the dedicated mailing lists I am aware of and I am always willing to contribute if relevant to the discussions. Regards Patricia Cameron Shorter wrote: Hello, Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. For me: Cameron Shorter, from http://communitymapbuilder.org . My hope is that this list can be used for representatives from webmapping projects to share design and code and help each other address common problems. I hope that before we start new modules we consult with each other and avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should be able to identify and factor out common libraries. -- Cameron Shorter http://cameron.shorter.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less. --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/mail_webmap-discuss/attachments/20060406/a5250dad/attachment.html From ajturner at highearthorbit.com Thu Apr 6 07:08:28 2006 From: ajturner at highearthorbit.com (Andrew Turner) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:40 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <20060406092532.67060.qmail@web61114.mail.yahoo.com> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> <20060406092532.67060.qmail@web61114.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4a31cd840604060408y6d077adauf00c95a9fe1ad50c@mail.gmail.com> Greetings, Andrew Turner, hobbyist/freelance developer from outside Detroit, Michigan, US. I have developed several sites utilizing web-mapping (see below), geo-exif plugins for photo applications (iPhoto and iView Media Pro), lead for FoFRedux, an open-source web-based, RSS aggregator with Geo support, geolocation firefox plugin, mobile phone location tracking, and working with several other devs on GeoPress, a Wordpress Geo/Map plugin. Andrew http://highearthorbit.com http://forestimages.org http://whereihadmyfirstkiss.com http://fofredux.sf.net -- Andrew Turner ajturner@highearthorbit.com 42.4266N x 83.4931W http://highearthorbit.com Northville, Michigan, USA From pspencer at dmsolutions.ca Thu Apr 6 07:45:18 2006 From: pspencer at dmsolutions.ca (Paul Spencer) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:40 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B263049-D73C-4DBA-AF32-3B80554696C7@dmsolutions.ca> Hi, Paul Spencer, DM Solutions Group My projects are: ka-Map, chameleon, maplab My current interest is in applying "AJAX" to web mapping applications. I have a fair amount of experience with MapServer and am starting to work with MapGuide Open Source. I second Cameron's hope to build a common web-mapping client library. I have a feeling most people are interested in "AJAX"ifying their applications and would like to concentrate on an abstract set of libraries that facilitate this in a web-mapping environment. Cheers Paul On 6-Apr-06, at 12:41 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > Hello, > Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. > Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. > > For me: Cameron Shorter, from http://communitymapbuilder.org . > > My hope is that this list can be used for representatives from > webmapping projects to share design and code and help each other > address common problems. > > I hope that before we start new modules we consult with each other and > avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should be able to identify > and factor out common libraries. > > -- > Cameron Shorter > http://cameron.shorter.net > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Applications & Software Development | |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ From steven.ottens at geodan.nl Thu Apr 6 08:40:28 2006 From: steven.ottens at geodan.nl (Steven M. Ottens) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:40 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <4B263049-D73C-4DBA-AF32-3B80554696C7@dmsolutions.ca> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> <4B263049-D73C-4DBA-AF32-3B80554696C7@dmsolutions.ca> Message-ID: <44350C3C.9060800@geodan.nl> Hi all, Steven Ottens, Geodan S&R(esearch) As member of the research department I'm very much interested in new ways to access geo-information. Since I'm also a member of the mapbuilder community a lot of those new ways involve mapbuilder and wms/wfs servers like umn, geoserver etc. I third Cameron's hope for a common library. AJAX development is fiddly at times and it would be great if we can combine our forces to get working webmapping clients. Also with the OpenAJAX at the horizon it would be more feasible to integrate a common webmapping library than each project tries to write their own integration. Ciao, Steven Paul Spencer wrote: > Hi, > > Paul Spencer, DM Solutions Group > > My projects are: ka-Map, chameleon, maplab > > My current interest is in applying "AJAX" to web mapping > applications. I have a fair amount of experience with MapServer and > am starting to work with MapGuide Open Source. > > I second Cameron's hope to build a common web-mapping client library. > I have a feeling most people are interested in "AJAX"ifying their > applications and would like to concentrate on an abstract set of > libraries that facilitate this in a web-mapping environment. > > Cheers > > Paul > > > On 6-Apr-06, at 12:41 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > >> Hello, >> Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. >> Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. >> >> For me: Cameron Shorter, from http://communitymapbuilder.org . >> >> My hope is that this list can be used for representatives from >> webmapping projects to share design and code and help each other >> address common problems. >> >> I hope that before we start new modules we consult with each other and >> avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should be able to identify >> and factor out common libraries. >> >> -- >> Cameron Shorter >> http://cameron.shorter.net >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> > > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > |Applications & Software Development | > |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > From Mike.Adair at CCRS.NRCan.gc.ca Thu Apr 6 10:05:16 2006 From: Mike.Adair at CCRS.NRCan.gc.ca (Adair, Mike) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:40 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call Message-ID: <7CDD7B94357FD5119E800002A537C46E13F6EEEB@s5-ccr-r1.ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca> Hi, I'm Mike Adair, currently working on MapBuilder, from Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. My day job is at Natural Resources Canada, associated with the GeoConnections program where I've used MapBuilder in the GeoConnections Discovery Portal. I'm somewhat familiar with the other Web Mapping projects out there and I think it would be great to be able to find commonalities and maximize code re-use. Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: Cameron Shorter [mailto:cameron.shorter@gmail.com] > Sent: April 6, 2006 12:42 AM > To: webmap-discuss@mail.osgeo.org > Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call > > Hello, > Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. > Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. > > For me: Cameron Shorter, from http://communitymapbuilder.org . > > My hope is that this list can be used for representatives > from webmapping projects to share design and code and help > each other address common problems. > > I hope that before we start new modules we consult with each > other and avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should > be able to identify and factor out common libraries. > > -- > Cameron Shorter > http://cameron.shorter.net > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > From scott at davisworld.org Thu Apr 6 10:09:30 2006 From: scott at davisworld.org (Scott Davis) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:40 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1E4833F3-A03F-471C-8315-5EC488793AE9@davisworld.org> Hi All, My name is Scott Davis. I wrote the Pragmatic book "Google Maps API: Adding Where to Your Application" (http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/ titles/sdgmapi/) and am wrapping up "Pragmatic GIS" (http:// www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/gis/index.html , also: http:// www.mapmap.org). I'm a regular presenter on the No Fluff, Just Stuff tour (http://www.nofluffjuststuff.com/speaker_view.jsp?speakerId=18) and talk about mapping topics whenever I can sneak it in (http:// www.nofluffjuststuff.com/speaker_topic_view.jsp?topicId=196 , slides: http://www.davisworld.org/presentations/realWorldWebMapping.zip) I'm a GIS populist. I'm very interested in AJAXian mapping interfaces and making them bone-simple to implement. Cheers, s Scott Davis scott@davisworld.org On Apr 5, 2006, at 10:41 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > Hello, > Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. > Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. > > For me: Cameron Shorter, from http://communitymapbuilder.org . > > My hope is that this list can be used for representatives from > webmapping projects to share design and code and help each other > address common problems. > > I hope that before we start new modules we consult with each other and > avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should be able to identify > and factor out common libraries. > > -- > Cameron Shorter > http://cameron.shorter.net > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > From pat at cappelaere.com Thu Apr 6 11:33:46 2006 From: pat at cappelaere.com (Pat Cappelaere) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:40 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <44350C3C.9060800@geodan.nl> Message-ID: Hello, My name is Pat Cappelaere, Vightel Corporation. My interest is in geospatial data generation and visualization. I am very involved in georss feeds and in the creation of new products centered around geospatial data and user communities around the data. This also include annotations on the map and further distribution/collaboration. I believe that we need to push existing OGC standards and support interoperability between open clients as our first priority. Commonality of code is really way down my personal list. Difference in implementation is a good thing!!!! Sorry! But we still ought to work together though. Pat. www.vightel.com > From: "Steven M. Ottens" > Reply-To: > Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 14:40:28 +0200 > To: > Subject: Re: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call > > Hi all, > > Steven Ottens, Geodan S&R(esearch) > > As member of the research department I'm very much interested in new > ways to access geo-information. Since I'm also a member of the > mapbuilder community a lot of those new ways involve mapbuilder and > wms/wfs servers like umn, geoserver etc. > > I third Cameron's hope for a common library. AJAX development is fiddly > at times and it would be great if we can combine our forces to get > working webmapping clients. Also with the OpenAJAX at the horizon it > would be more feasible to integrate a common webmapping library than > each project tries to write their own integration. > > Ciao, > Steven > > Paul Spencer wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Paul Spencer, DM Solutions Group >> >> My projects are: ka-Map, chameleon, maplab >> >> My current interest is in applying "AJAX" to web mapping >> applications. I have a fair amount of experience with MapServer and >> am starting to work with MapGuide Open Source. >> >> I second Cameron's hope to build a common web-mapping client library. >> I have a feeling most people are interested in "AJAX"ifying their >> applications and would like to concentrate on an abstract set of >> libraries that facilitate this in a web-mapping environment. >> >> Cheers >> >> Paul >> >> >> On 6-Apr-06, at 12:41 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. >>> Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. >>> >>> For me: Cameron Shorter, from http://communitymapbuilder.org . >>> >>> My hope is that this list can be used for representatives from >>> webmapping projects to share design and code and help each other >>> address common problems. >>> >>> I hope that before we start new modules we consult with each other and >>> avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should be able to identify >>> and factor out common libraries. >>> >>> -- >>> Cameron Shorter >>> http://cameron.shorter.net >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>> >> >> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >> |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >> |Applications & Software Development | >> |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| >> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > From urbanowsjp at yahoo.co.jp Thu Apr 6 10:53:39 2006 From: urbanowsjp at yahoo.co.jp (Urbanowski Shayne) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <1E4833F3-A03F-471C-8315-5EC488793AE9@davisworld.org> Message-ID: <20060406145339.87984.qmail@web2307.mail.yahoo.co.jp> My name is Shayne Urbanowski. My interest is in finding opportunities to integrate mass market web maps with OGC standards. The hope is to participate in a community that will further technologies that help transition the one-up mashup movement to an interoperable web based GIS environment. I see the OGC standards and rich client web apps as the primary mechanism to support this transition. Regards, Shayne Shayne at urbano.ws > On Apr 5, 2006, at 10:41 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > > > Hello, > > Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off > with a role call. > > Introduce yourself and what project(s) you > represent. > > > > For me: Cameron Shorter, from > http://communitymapbuilder.org . > > > > My hope is that this list can be used for > representatives from > > webmapping projects to share design and code and > help each other > > address common problems. > > > > I hope that before we start new modules we consult > with each other and > > avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should > be able to identify > > and factor out common libraries. > > > > -- > > Cameron Shorter > > http://cameron.shorter.net > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: > webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: > webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > -------------------------------------- Celebrate Yahoo! JAPAN 10th Anniversary http://pr.mail.yahoo.co.jp/10thann/ From arnulf.christl at ccgis.de Thu Apr 6 10:58:16 2006 From: arnulf.christl at ccgis.de (Arnulf Christl) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44352C88.4080801@ccgis.de> Hi, my name is Arnulf Christl, we develop the Mapbender Project. We have for now postponed to introduce AJAX for several reasons but are highly interested in what is going on. The current development focus lies on usability of OGC standards, support for multi user environments and security proxy administration. Mapbender is used by a fairly broad set of productive environments, some are linked from the gallery: http://www.mapbender.org/index.php/Mapbender_Gallery Arnulf. From woodbri at swoodbridge.com Thu Apr 6 12:10:14 2006 From: woodbri at swoodbridge.com (Stephen Woodbridge) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call Message-ID: <44353D66.20901@swoodbridge.com> Hi, My name is Stephen Woodbridge, I own http://iMaptools.com and I work for http://where2getit.com. I have been very active on the mapserver list, ka-map list, postgis list and a few others. I am interested in ajax based web mapping tools and how they can easily be integrated with xml-rpc and soap web services. Since a lot of this work revolves around commercial web services I am interested in accounts and authentication mechanisms in web mapping apis. -Steve From walbridge at nceas.ucsb.edu Thu Apr 6 13:33:22 2006 From: walbridge at nceas.ucsb.edu (Shaun Walbridge) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <443550E2.20603@nceas.ucsb.edu> Hi All, Shaun Walbridge from Santa Barbara, California, US. I work for the National Center for Ecological Analysis and Synthesis. I work on a few projects with web mapping components, both in developing new spatial data and novel ways to display data, and helping external groups develop and implement a vision for their data. I'm interested in pushing the AJAX-based web mapping environment further along in the direction of providing a basic analysis environment for exploring geospatial data. An AJAX based common library would further this goal, as would general design patterns [1] for web mapping. I'd also like to help build the bridge between web mapping clients and the various open source GIS components down the stack, such as GRASS. Shaun Walbridge http://ebm.nceas.ucsb.edu 1. http://developer.yahoo.com/ypatterns/ Cameron Shorter wrote: >Hello, >Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. >Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. > >For me: Cameron Shorter, from http://communitymapbuilder.org . > >My hope is that this list can be used for representatives from >webmapping projects to share design and code and help each other >address common problems. > >I hope that before we start new modules we consult with each other and >avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should be able to identify >and factor out common libraries. > >-- >Cameron Shorter >http://cameron.shorter.net > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > > From schuyler at nocat.net Thu Apr 6 16:23:53 2006 From: schuyler at nocat.net (Schuyler Erle) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060406202353.GI22521@vishnu.tridity.org> * On 5-Apr-2006 at 9:41PM PDT, Cameron Shorter said: > > Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. > Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. Hi, gang, my name's Schuyler Erle. I co-wrote _Mapping Hacks_ and _Google Maps Hacks_ (http://mappinghacks.com/) and have been interested in web map tools for a couple of years now. At present, I'm working for MetaCarta, helping to develop OpenLayers, a BSD licensed JavaScript toolkit for adding dynamic maps to HTML pages. My experience with Google Maps has led me to believe _very strongly_ that the Open Source Geospatial community would benefit from having at least one very simple, server-independent, straight-up JavaScript API, one that a non-GIS person might use to build locative applications on the Web. This philosophy is very much in line with the design of the Google Maps API, and somewhat in contrast to what's been implemented in, say, ka-Map, with its PHP dependency, or MapBuilder, with its emphasis on server-side XML configuration and its powerful but very complex MVS framework. OpenLayers lives at http://www.openlayers.org/ but right now there's not a whole lot to see there. We're gearing up for a major code release in a couple of weeks, which of course we'll announce here when that happens. The code will feature support for the slippy tiled maps that folks have come to expect on the Web, via OGC WMS, and some support for putting markers on the map and associating events with them via the JS API. Personally, I don't have much attachment to the OpenLayers code base, as it stands. My primary interest is in seeing some kind of library with the properties I've enumerated, with the flexibility to have many different applications hacked on top. I'd be thrilled to find ways to share code with other projects (or infect them with our requirements)... ;-) Also, I have yet to see an Open Source map API that isn't total weak sauce in the documentation and QA department -- and OpenLayers is, as yet, no exception. We gotta fix this, folks! On a separate but related note, I want to draw your attention to the Public Geospatial Data Committee's efforts to explore ideas for a WMS tile caching standard: http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/WMS_Tile_Caching I hope that the OSGeo web mapping community will help offer the impetus to advance the state of the art in this direction! SDE From woodbri at swoodbridge.com Thu Apr 6 16:37:13 2006 From: woodbri at swoodbridge.com (Stephen Woodbridge) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Start the discussion - was( Roll Call In-Reply-To: <20060406202353.GI22521@vishnu.tridity.org> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> <20060406202353.GI22521@vishnu.tridity.org> Message-ID: <44357BF9.8000808@swoodbridge.com> Hey Schuyler, Great to see you here also, and since you have more the roll call to a discuss, I'll happy add my 2 cents. I would like to see a back end API defined the is neutral with plugins for the service you want to consume. In fact each layer should be able to define the service that they want to consume. That way I can have a web mapping application the pulls tiles or images from ka-map, ESRI, mapserver CGI, WMS, etc. If you design your API around a single data source provider you end up with a ka-map of a google API. it would be better to abstract the service and all people to create scriptlet plugins to construct requests for images. -Steve Schuyler Erle wrote: > * On 5-Apr-2006 at 9:41PM PDT, Cameron Shorter said: > >>Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. >>Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. > > > Hi, gang, my name's Schuyler Erle. I co-wrote _Mapping Hacks_ and > _Google Maps Hacks_ (http://mappinghacks.com/) and have been > interested in web map tools for a couple of years now. > > At present, I'm working for MetaCarta, helping to develop OpenLayers, > a BSD licensed JavaScript toolkit for adding dynamic maps to HTML > pages. My experience with Google Maps has led me to believe _very > strongly_ that the Open Source Geospatial community would benefit from > having at least one very simple, server-independent, straight-up > JavaScript API, one that a non-GIS person might use to build locative > applications on the Web. This philosophy is very much in line with > the design of the Google Maps API, and somewhat in contrast to what's > been implemented in, say, ka-Map, with its PHP dependency, or > MapBuilder, with its emphasis on server-side XML configuration and its > powerful but very complex MVS framework. > > OpenLayers lives at http://www.openlayers.org/ but right now there's > not a whole lot to see there. We're gearing up for a major code > release in a couple of weeks, which of course we'll announce here when > that happens. The code will feature support for the slippy tiled maps > that folks have come to expect on the Web, via OGC WMS, and some > support for putting markers on the map and associating events with > them via the JS API. > > Personally, I don't have much attachment to the OpenLayers code base, > as it stands. My primary interest is in seeing some kind of library > with the properties I've enumerated, with the flexibility to have many > different applications hacked on top. I'd be thrilled to find ways to > share code with other projects (or infect them with our > requirements)... ;-) Also, I have yet to see an Open Source map API > that isn't total weak sauce in the documentation and QA department -- > and OpenLayers is, as yet, no exception. We gotta fix this, folks! > > On a separate but related note, I want to draw your attention to the > Public Geospatial Data Committee's efforts to explore ideas for a WMS > tile caching standard: > > http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/WMS_Tile_Caching > > I hope that the OSGeo web mapping community will help offer the > impetus to advance the state of the art in this direction! > > SDE > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > From steven_morris at ncsu.edu Thu Apr 6 16:56:38 2006 From: steven_morris at ncsu.edu (Steve Morris) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44358086.3030401@ncsu.edu> My name is Steve Morris and I'm coming at this from the library perspective. One area of focus is preservation of digital data, in a cooperative project with Library of Congress as part of the National Digital Information Infrastructure and Preservation program. In this context we're mostly looking at preserving the underlying data, but also starting to look at the issue of capturing cartographic representations through web mapping systems (possibly eventually harvesting WMS tiles, mining tile caches, etc.--how do we make a Web Map Context Document save data state?) As a library we're also moving on from helping people find and use geospatial data to helping them find and use geospatial web services, and so are interested in discovery systems for web mapping content and services, moving beyond content metadata issues to functional metadata issues (what do these things do). There's a growing market of application developers that want help in finding content and services to use. Another connection point is setting up our own map services. We got out of the business of running our own standard map server 5 years ago when the data producers started doing it (after that our data copies were usually stale in comparison) and are now focusing on serving out niche WMS services (later perhaps WFS) for others to use. Further along we'll be interested in coming back full circle to web maps by building our own mapping applications on top of the existing and emerging distributed services. Also, as a sometimes Google Maps hobbyist on the side I've played at WMS integration issues and am interested in that context in emerging tiling and caching schemes. Steve Cameron Shorter wrote: >Hello, >Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. >Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. > >For me: Cameron Shorter, from http://communitymapbuilder.org . > >My hope is that this list can be used for representatives from >webmapping projects to share design and code and help each other >address common problems. > >I hope that before we start new modules we consult with each other and >avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should be able to identify >and factor out common libraries. > >-- >Cameron Shorter >http://cameron.shorter.net > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > > > -- Steve Morris Head of Digital Library Initiatives North Carolina State University Libraries Phone: (919) 515-1361 Fax: (919) 515-3031 Steven_Morris@ncsu.edu From pspencer at dmsolutions.ca Thu Apr 6 17:03:16 2006 From: pspencer at dmsolutions.ca (Paul Spencer) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Start the discussion - was( Roll Call In-Reply-To: <44357BF9.8000808@swoodbridge.com> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> <20060406202353.GI22521@vishnu.tridity.org> <44357BF9.8000808@swoodbridge.com> Message-ID: the big problem with this is that the more generic you make it, the less optimal (performance wise) it becomes (in my experience). Cheers Paul On 6-Apr-06, at 4:37 PM, Stephen Woodbridge wrote: > Hey Schuyler, > > Great to see you here also, and since you have more the roll call > to a discuss, I'll happy add my 2 cents. > > I would like to see a back end API defined the is neutral with > plugins for the service you want to consume. In fact each layer > should be able to define the service that they want to consume. > That way I can have a web mapping application the pulls tiles or > images from ka-map, ESRI, mapserver CGI, WMS, etc. If you design > your API around a single data source provider you end up with a ka- > map of a google API. it would be better to abstract the service and > all people to create scriptlet plugins to construct requests for > images. > > -Steve > > Schuyler Erle wrote: >> * On 5-Apr-2006 at 9:41PM PDT, Cameron Shorter said: >>> Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role >>> call. Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. >> Hi, gang, my name's Schuyler Erle. I co-wrote _Mapping Hacks_ and >> _Google Maps Hacks_ (http://mappinghacks.com/) and have been >> interested in web map tools for a couple of years now. >> At present, I'm working for MetaCarta, helping to develop OpenLayers, >> a BSD licensed JavaScript toolkit for adding dynamic maps to HTML >> pages. My experience with Google Maps has led me to believe _very >> strongly_ that the Open Source Geospatial community would benefit >> from >> having at least one very simple, server-independent, straight-up >> JavaScript API, one that a non-GIS person might use to build locative >> applications on the Web. This philosophy is very much in line with >> the design of the Google Maps API, and somewhat in contrast to what's >> been implemented in, say, ka-Map, with its PHP dependency, or >> MapBuilder, with its emphasis on server-side XML configuration and >> its >> powerful but very complex MVS framework. >> OpenLayers lives at http://www.openlayers.org/ but right now there's >> not a whole lot to see there. We're gearing up for a major code >> release in a couple of weeks, which of course we'll announce here >> when >> that happens. The code will feature support for the slippy tiled maps >> that folks have come to expect on the Web, via OGC WMS, and some >> support for putting markers on the map and associating events with >> them via the JS API. >> Personally, I don't have much attachment to the OpenLayers code base, >> as it stands. My primary interest is in seeing some kind of library >> with the properties I've enumerated, with the flexibility to have >> many >> different applications hacked on top. I'd be thrilled to find ways to >> share code with other projects (or infect them with our >> requirements)... ;-) Also, I have yet to see an Open Source map API >> that isn't total weak sauce in the documentation and QA department -- >> and OpenLayers is, as yet, no exception. We gotta fix this, folks! >> On a separate but related note, I want to draw your attention to the >> Public Geospatial Data Committee's efforts to explore ideas for a WMS >> tile caching standard: >> http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/WMS_Tile_Caching >> I hope that the OSGeo web mapping community will help offer the >> impetus to advance the state of the art in this direction! >> SDE >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Applications & Software Development | |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ From pat at cappelaere.com Thu Apr 6 18:04:23 2006 From: pat at cappelaere.com (Pat Cappelaere) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Start the discussion - was( Roll Call In-Reply-To: <44357BF9.8000808@swoodbridge.com> Message-ID: Steve, We can currently pretty much do what you are describing with MapBuilder. We can access WMS, WFS< GoogleMaps, GeoRss feeds...by describing what each layer ought to do... And Schuyler needs to add a Google-like API to it or get us to do it. We have had discussions about it. It is very doable. Just a matter of priorities and motivations... :) Pat. > From: Stephen Woodbridge > Reply-To: > Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:37:13 -0400 > To: > Subject: Re: [webmap-discuss] Start the discussion - was( Roll Call > > Hey Schuyler, > > Great to see you here also, and since you have more the roll call to a > discuss, I'll happy add my 2 cents. > > I would like to see a back end API defined the is neutral with plugins > for the service you want to consume. In fact each layer should be able > to define the service that they want to consume. That way I can have a > web mapping application the pulls tiles or images from ka-map, ESRI, > mapserver CGI, WMS, etc. If you design your API around a single data > source provider you end up with a ka-map of a google API. it would be > better to abstract the service and all people to create scriptlet > plugins to construct requests for images. > > -Steve > > Schuyler Erle wrote: >> * On 5-Apr-2006 at 9:41PM PDT, Cameron Shorter said: >> >>> Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. >>> Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. >> >> >> Hi, gang, my name's Schuyler Erle. I co-wrote _Mapping Hacks_ and >> _Google Maps Hacks_ (http://mappinghacks.com/) and have been >> interested in web map tools for a couple of years now. >> >> At present, I'm working for MetaCarta, helping to develop OpenLayers, >> a BSD licensed JavaScript toolkit for adding dynamic maps to HTML >> pages. My experience with Google Maps has led me to believe _very >> strongly_ that the Open Source Geospatial community would benefit from >> having at least one very simple, server-independent, straight-up >> JavaScript API, one that a non-GIS person might use to build locative >> applications on the Web. This philosophy is very much in line with >> the design of the Google Maps API, and somewhat in contrast to what's >> been implemented in, say, ka-Map, with its PHP dependency, or >> MapBuilder, with its emphasis on server-side XML configuration and its >> powerful but very complex MVS framework. >> >> OpenLayers lives at http://www.openlayers.org/ but right now there's >> not a whole lot to see there. We're gearing up for a major code >> release in a couple of weeks, which of course we'll announce here when >> that happens. The code will feature support for the slippy tiled maps >> that folks have come to expect on the Web, via OGC WMS, and some >> support for putting markers on the map and associating events with >> them via the JS API. >> >> Personally, I don't have much attachment to the OpenLayers code base, >> as it stands. My primary interest is in seeing some kind of library >> with the properties I've enumerated, with the flexibility to have many >> different applications hacked on top. I'd be thrilled to find ways to >> share code with other projects (or infect them with our >> requirements)... ;-) Also, I have yet to see an Open Source map API >> that isn't total weak sauce in the documentation and QA department -- >> and OpenLayers is, as yet, no exception. We gotta fix this, folks! >> >> On a separate but related note, I want to draw your attention to the >> Public Geospatial Data Committee's efforts to explore ideas for a WMS >> tile caching standard: >> >> http://wiki.osgeo.org/index.php/WMS_Tile_Caching >> >> I hope that the OSGeo web mapping community will help offer the >> impetus to advance the state of the art in this direction! >> >> SDE >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > From pat at cappelaere.com Thu Apr 6 18:07:37 2006 From: pat at cappelaere.com (Pat Cappelaere) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <44358086.3030401@ncsu.edu> Message-ID: Steve, You mean being able to serve some antiques maps via a WFS! :) Would be way cool! Pat. > From: Steve Morris > Organization: NCSU Libraries > Reply-To: > Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:56:38 -0400 > To: > Subject: Re: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call > > > My name is Steve Morris and I'm coming at this from the library > perspective. One area of focus is preservation of digital data, in a > cooperative project with Library of Congress as part of the National > Digital Information Infrastructure and Preservation program. In this > context we're mostly looking at preserving the underlying data, but also > starting to look at the issue of capturing cartographic representations > through web mapping systems (possibly eventually harvesting WMS tiles, > mining tile caches, etc.--how do we make a Web Map Context Document save > data state?) > > As a library we're also moving on from helping people find and use > geospatial data to helping them find and use geospatial web services, > and so are interested in discovery systems for web mapping content and > services, moving beyond content metadata issues to functional metadata > issues (what do these things do). There's a growing market of > application developers that want help in finding content and services to > use. > > Another connection point is setting up our own map services. We got out > of the business of running our own standard map server 5 years ago when > the data producers started doing it (after that our data copies were > usually stale in comparison) and are now focusing on serving out niche > WMS services (later perhaps WFS) for others to use. Further along we'll > be interested in coming back full circle to web maps by building our own > mapping applications on top of the existing and emerging distributed > services. > > Also, as a sometimes Google Maps hobbyist on the side I've played at WMS > integration issues and am interested in that context in emerging tiling > and caching schemes. > > Steve > > Cameron Shorter wrote: > >> Hello, >> Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. >> Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. >> >> For me: Cameron Shorter, from http://communitymapbuilder.org . >> >> My hope is that this list can be used for representatives from >> webmapping projects to share design and code and help each other >> address common problems. >> >> I hope that before we start new modules we consult with each other and >> avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should be able to identify >> and factor out common libraries. >> >> -- >> Cameron Shorter >> http://cameron.shorter.net >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> >> >> >> > > -- > Steve Morris > Head of Digital Library Initiatives > North Carolina State University Libraries > Phone: (919) 515-1361 Fax: (919) 515-3031 > Steven_Morris@ncsu.edu > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > From mose at mose.fr Thu Apr 6 19:33:13 2006 From: mose at mose.fr (mose) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060406233311.GY3173@mose.fr> hi I'm mose, free software author living in Paris, France. I went to mapserver in 2002 to build http://localis.org (which is a sleeping project now). I'm still participating in * http://developer.berlios.de/projects/spip-carto, a plugin to integrate gis into http://spip.net * http://e-toil.com a derivate of localis, implemented with postgis (not released yet) * http://maps.tikiwiki.org is the mapserver subcommunity in tikiwiki development community For now I'm mostly lurking in many places where maps are contributing to stimulate collective intelligence. regards, mose -- http://mose.fr/cv le Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 09:41:33PM -0700 par Cameron Shorter : > Hello, > Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. > Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. > > For me: Cameron Shorter, from http://communitymapbuilder.org . > > My hope is that this list can be used for representatives from > webmapping projects to share design and code and help each other > address common problems. > > I hope that before we start new modules we consult with each other and > avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should be able to identify > and factor out common libraries. > > -- > Cameron Shorter > http://cameron.shorter.net > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org From mnl at well.com Thu Apr 6 19:43:25 2006 From: mnl at well.com (Mike Liebhold) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <20060406233311.GY3173@mose.fr> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> <20060406233311.GY3173@mose.fr> Message-ID: <4435A79D.9060603@well.com> Hello, I'm Mike, living in rural California, working at The Institute for the Future ( iftf.org ) working on a variety of mapping projects. Lately I've been hanging out at georss.org. GeoRSS is an extremely simple scheme for geocoding objects which can be shared over RSS, and within GML. So far, Yahoo, Microsoft, and ESRI have all announced intentions to support GeoRSS, along with lots of open mappers. Mike Mike Liebhold Senior Researcher Institute for the Future 650 464 9911 mobile iftf.org | starhill index | starhill del.icio.us blend | current google mose wrote: >hi > >I'm mose, free software author living in Paris, France. I went to >mapserver in 2002 to build http://localis.org (which is a sleeping >project now). > >I'm still participating in >* http://developer.berlios.de/projects/spip-carto, a plugin to integrate > gis into http://spip.net >* http://e-toil.com a derivate of localis, implemented with postgis > (not released yet) >* http://maps.tikiwiki.org is the mapserver subcommunity in tikiwiki > development community > >For now I'm mostly lurking in many places where maps are contributing >to stimulate collective intelligence. > > >regards, >mose > >-- >http://mose.fr/cv > > >le Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 09:41:33PM -0700 par Cameron Shorter : > > >>Hello, >>Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. >>Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. >> >>For me: Cameron Shorter, from http://communitymapbuilder.org . >> >>My hope is that this list can be used for representatives from >>webmapping projects to share design and code and help each other >>address common problems. >> >>I hope that before we start new modules we consult with each other and >>avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should be able to identify >>and factor out common libraries. >> >>-- >>Cameron Shorter >>http://cameron.shorter.net >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> >> > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/mail_webmap-discuss/attachments/20060406/07f9b029/attachment.html From john.frank at metacarta.com Thu Apr 6 19:52:18 2006 From: john.frank at metacarta.com (John R. Frank) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <20060406202353.GI22521@vishnu.tridity.org> References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> <20060406202353.GI22521@vishnu.tridity.org> Message-ID: > > Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. > > Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. Hey folks, I'm John Frank. I founded MetaCarta several years ago. We make natural language georeferencing engines. We sell primarily to enterprises. To take full advantage of the georeferenced documents that our systems produce, we also sell a complete soup-to-nuts text search appliance that includes the UMN MapServer and is beginning to include elements of the OpenLayers javascript that Schuyler mentioned. As Schuyler said, OpenLayers is not done. It's actually in its third ground up rewrite, and we're still learning how to make it practical. We want to build great GUIs for exploring unstructured documents in conjunction with maps. These particular uses overlap with several basic uses of maps on the Web, so we would like to base them on a totally open source library of AJAX GIS parts. All the alternatives, including OpenLayers, still have shortcomings. Hopefully discussions on this list can figure out how best to address them. While a diversity of tools is good, we will all benefit from figuring out how to share pieces. The details of our current thinking will be more visible when we release the new version of OpenLayers. For the record, my personal interests in mapping involve ecology, racing alternative vehicles, and community building. John -- ________________________________________ John R. Frank Founder and CTO MetaCarta, Inc. From rob at socialchange.net.au Thu Apr 6 21:16:46 2006 From: rob at socialchange.net.au (Rob Atkinson) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: Roll Call Message-ID: <4435BD7E.6060303@socialchange.net.au> Rob Atkinson, My underlying interests are public access to public information, better informed science and policy etc. A functioning Spatial Data Infrastructure is required, and interoperable services and accessible tools. Have been exploring the richer end of "bind" - looking at the business, technical and theoretical issues behind WFS and processing chains and consequently done a lot of work in registry roles within SDI architectures. Specific interests regarding clients are: I believe the plugin data issue is trivial at a protocol level, hard at a semantic level. Thus, a primary role of a common reference implementation (API if you like) is for interacting sets of components to realise an underlying information model. i.e. I agree with other sentiments about "mass-maps" providing impetus, but having a way too restricted view of the world. What is our "view of the world" though? More than plugging in data, however, is the concern about how modules can be plugged into a larger business application. Its all very well dropping in a map via a simple API, but how do you integrate the ability to discover and bind to a new data source? Or, in the more concrete case, be able to guide a user through interaction with a WFS that may have terabytes of data behind it? We need to tease out the common "contract" between client behaviour and service semantics, and encapsulate this an API. At the moment we do this partially - for the spatial navigation side of the contract, but not for any other "business oriented" interactions. What I'd like to see is bindings between the common tools ("widgets" if you like) and UI frameworks. Portlets is one obvious target. Then, it should be possible to have multiple code bases (including proprietary ones) but not be limited by the functionality of any one implementation. For example, why not be able to switch between a 2D view and a 3D view in a completely different technology? Rob Atkinson Social Change Online From Steven_Morris at ncsu.edu Thu Apr 6 21:53:16 2006 From: Steven_Morris at ncsu.edu (Steve Morris) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: References: <44358086.3030401@ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <2176.69.134.236.166.1144374796.squirrel@webmail.ncsu.edu> Pat, The initial Library of Congress NDIIPP project focus is on getting present day geospatial data to be like antique maps a hundred years from now. But as for our library service, in terms of looking at things to serve out as WMS or WFS we are in fact looking at what data is not served out by data producers or commercial providers, and older data is definitely part of that mix. Superceded USGS topos are one thing we're working with. More compelling business cases are associated with things like serving last year's or last month's land records data. Later in the NDIIPP project we'll be looking at how older data we've archived will fit into the geospatial web services environment. We are partnered with the NC OneMap initiative which is focused on seamless access to state/local/federal data via WMS (with some WFS coming)--some 70+ state and local agencies in NC with WMS services now. Steve > Steve, > > You mean being able to serve some antiques maps via a WFS! :) > Would be way cool! > Pat. > > >> From: Steve Morris >> Organization: NCSU Libraries >> Reply-To: >> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:56:38 -0400 >> To: >> Subject: Re: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call >> >> >> My name is Steve Morris and I'm coming at this from the library >> perspective. One area of focus is preservation of digital data, in a >> cooperative project with Library of Congress as part of the National >> Digital Information Infrastructure and Preservation program. In this >> context we're mostly looking at preserving the underlying data, but also >> starting to look at the issue of capturing cartographic representations >> through web mapping systems (possibly eventually harvesting WMS tiles, >> mining tile caches, etc.--how do we make a Web Map Context Document save >> data state?) >> >> As a library we're also moving on from helping people find and use >> geospatial data to helping them find and use geospatial web services, >> and so are interested in discovery systems for web mapping content and >> services, moving beyond content metadata issues to functional metadata >> issues (what do these things do). There's a growing market of >> application developers that want help in finding content and services to >> use. >> >> Another connection point is setting up our own map services. We got out >> of the business of running our own standard map server 5 years ago when >> the data producers started doing it (after that our data copies were >> usually stale in comparison) and are now focusing on serving out niche >> WMS services (later perhaps WFS) for others to use. Further along we'll >> be interested in coming back full circle to web maps by building our own >> mapping applications on top of the existing and emerging distributed >> services. >> >> Also, as a sometimes Google Maps hobbyist on the side I've played at WMS >> integration issues and am interested in that context in emerging tiling >> and caching schemes. >> >> Steve >> >> Cameron Shorter wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. >>> Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. >>> >>> For me: Cameron Shorter, from http://communitymapbuilder.org . >>> >>> My hope is that this list can be used for representatives from >>> webmapping projects to share design and code and help each other >>> address common problems. >>> >>> I hope that before we start new modules we consult with each other and >>> avoid re-inventing the wheel. Together, we should be able to identify >>> and factor out common libraries. >>> >>> -- >>> Cameron Shorter >>> http://cameron.shorter.net >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Steve Morris >> Head of Digital Library Initiatives >> North Carolina State University Libraries >> Phone: (919) 515-1361 Fax: (919) 515-3031 >> Steven_Morris@ncsu.edu >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > From pspencer at dmsolutions.ca Fri Apr 7 07:11:40 2006 From: pspencer at dmsolutions.ca (Paul Spencer) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: References: <8fd6e5470604052141r4a6ad87w88d6f3555b6a57f0@mail.gmail.com> <20060406202353.GI22521@vishnu.tridity.org> Message-ID: <81B279CB-A5DC-4944-A4F4-E9F2F6777061@dmsolutions.ca> GIS parts ... that would be a cool name for the project! On 6-Apr-06, at 7:52 PM, John R. Frank wrote: > >>> Wecome to the webmap-discuss list. Let's kick off with a role call. >>> Introduce yourself and what project(s) you represent. > > > Hey folks, I'm John Frank. I founded MetaCarta several years ago. We > make natural language georeferencing engines. We sell primarily to > enterprises. To take full advantage of the georeferenced documents > that > our systems produce, we also sell a complete soup-to-nuts text search > appliance that includes the UMN MapServer and is beginning to include > elements of the OpenLayers javascript that Schuyler mentioned. > > As Schuyler said, OpenLayers is not done. It's actually in its third > ground up rewrite, and we're still learning how to make it > practical. We > want to build great GUIs for exploring unstructured documents in > conjunction with maps. These particular uses overlap with several > basic > uses of maps on the Web, so we would like to base them on a totally > open > source library of AJAX GIS parts. All the alternatives, including > OpenLayers, still have shortcomings. Hopefully discussions on this > list > can figure out how best to address them. While a diversity of > tools is > good, we will all benefit from figuring out how to share pieces. > > The details of our current thinking will be more visible when we > release > the new version of OpenLayers. > > > For the record, my personal interests in mapping involve ecology, > racing > alternative vehicles, and community building. > > > John > > > > > -- > ________________________________________ > John R. Frank > Founder and CTO > MetaCarta, Inc. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Applications & Software Development | |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ From astrid.emde at ccgis.de Mon Apr 10 03:24:14 2006 From: astrid.emde at ccgis.de (Astrid Emde) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: Roll Call Message-ID: <443A081E.1090003@ccgis.de> Hi, my name is Astrid Emde. I work with Arnulf Christl and Uli Rothstein in Bonn at CCGIS. We develop the Mapbender project. My focus is on client development, OGC WMS and WFS and UMN MapServer. For more information about Mapbender have a look at: http://www.mapbender.org Let's discuss together about web-map-client development. Good idea. astrid From cameron.shorter at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 07:04:01 2006 From: cameron.shorter at gmail.com (Cameron Shorter) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: webmap workshop at FOSS4G 2006 Conference Message-ID: <443A3BA1.3000504@gmail.com> I propose we organise a webmap workshop at the FOSS4G conference: http://www.foss4g2006.org/ (FOSS4G 2006, 12-15 September 2006, Lausanne Switzerland) In the workshop I'd like to see representatives from webmapping clients identify and discuss: 1. Common Use Cases 2. Common interfaces that we can share and develop to. 3. Common functionality that we can factor out into shared libraries. I imagine this would work best up to 20 people representing up to 5 projects around a whiteboard. Anything else I've forgotten? Claude, how long are the workshops? -- Cameron Shorter http://cameron.shorter.net From mikel_maron at yahoo.com Mon Apr 10 07:04:22 2006 From: mikel_maron at yahoo.com (Mikel Maron) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: Roll Call Message-ID: <20060410110422.75273.qmail@web30812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi My name is Mikel Maron, lead developer of worldKit [http://worldkit.org/] worldKit is an open source Flash mapping tool which supports GeoRSS, WMS, time navigation, and loads of other stuff Flash may not be what comes to mind when talking about AJAX, but there isn't so much difference actually. Actionscript and Javascript are both variations of the ECMAScript standard, and code can be shared across these languages either by simple, scriptable syntax transformations or through the Javascript-Flash Comm library. I've been active in the development of GeoRSS, and am a big believer in the power of the format to link different projects and code bases together. For instance, GeoRSS support has led to numerous CMS plugins for worldKit. I haven't seen CivicMaps mentioned here. http://maps.civicactions.net/. This is a very basic ajax web mapping library, but it does the job. When I was evaluating a library to use for the OpenStreetMap slippy map, CivicMaps was the easiest to get working and is now running there. Also relevant is mapstraction, a nascent effort to encapsulate the basic functionality of the big 3 free beer web mapping apis. http://www.mapstraction.com/wiki Best, Mikel From drew at zhrodague.net Mon Apr 10 12:52:14 2006 From: drew at zhrodague.net (Drew from Zhrodague) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Roll Call In-Reply-To: <20060410110422.75273.qmail@web30812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060410110422.75273.qmail@web30812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, All, I'm Drew from Zhrodague. I am the co-creator of WiFiMaps.com -- we plot wardriving data (wifi + gps) onto TIGER maps using Mapserver. We've been up for 4 years now, http://www.WiFiMaps.com We're finally making some headway in rewriting our application. We were using PHPNuke as a CMS, but we've changed to Drupal which seems to be much nicer. We're kinda leaning towards not using Mapserver, as we really lack the proper infrastructure to support it. Instead, we've writen a few complimentary and general-purpose Drupal modules, which I'm hoping we can get done by the summertime. (Sorry, Carto folks!) Our intention is to publish the wifi data we collect under one of the GPLs, so third-party mashups and client packages can make use of it. -- Drew from Zhrodague http://www.WiFiMaps.com drew@zhrodague.net http://www.zhrodague.net From steven.ottens at geodan.nl Wed Apr 12 04:07:21 2006 From: steven.ottens at geodan.nl (Steven M. Ottens) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: OGC and google style tiling Message-ID: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> Hi all, For those who don't know: I'm one of the lead developers on the EduGIS project, a site which aims to introduce highschool students to GIS. The site contains a webmapping part, which combined with so called 'lesson-modules' can be used inside the classroom. We aim to be able to have at least 200 students access the site at one time. Since it's being used inside the classroom it means that a lot of students will do more or less the same thing at the same time (following the tasks in the lesson-modules). This causes quite some stress on the server. Since it's a free site we have limited budget and cannot put a google-style server park behind it ;( Right now we've got apache to serverside cache the umn mapserver output. This obviously works only for those images that are requested twice (like the first mapimage). Right now about 30 students can work at the same time without it becoming unworkable slow. Since serverside caching works, the next logical step to boost performance would be using tiles like google. But.. >From what I know, tiling breaks OGC compatibility, right? We're using Mapbuilder as client and we prefer to keep using it, since it's turning into a rather featureful client on the EduGIS site. But the question arises how to implement tiling inside WMC/OWS-context without breaking OGC too much. Also I'm interested in the used algorithms to get tiling working. Cheers, Steven From bartvde at xs4all.nl Wed Apr 12 04:18:36 2006 From: bartvde at xs4all.nl (Bart van den Eijnden) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> Message-ID: <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi Steven, there is an OGC list to discuss tiling: http://lists.eogeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiling check the archives there. What you could also do, since I assume your data is pretty much static, is use UMN Mapserver to rasterize all your vector data (create Geotiffs e.g.) and serve out the rasters instead. I guess the classifications used are heavy on CPU usage, and pre-classified rasters would solve that part at least. Best regards, Bart > Hi all, > > For those who don't know: I'm one of the lead developers on the EduGIS > project, a site which aims to introduce highschool students to GIS. The > site contains a webmapping part, which combined with so called > 'lesson-modules' can be used inside the classroom. > We aim to be able to have at least 200 students access the site at one > time. Since it's being used inside the classroom it means that a lot of > students will do more or less the same thing at the same time (following > the tasks in the lesson-modules). This causes quite some stress on the > server. Since it's a free site we have limited budget and cannot put a > google-style server park behind it ;( > > Right now we've got apache to serverside cache the umn mapserver output. > This obviously works only for those images that are requested twice > (like the first mapimage). Right now about 30 students can work at the > same time without it becoming unworkable slow. Since serverside caching > works, the next logical step to boost performance would be using tiles > like google. > But.. > From what I know, tiling breaks OGC compatibility, right? > We're using Mapbuilder as client and we prefer to keep using it, since > it's turning into a rather featureful client on the EduGIS site. But the > question arises how to implement tiling inside WMC/OWS-context without > breaking OGC too much. > Also I'm interested in the used algorithms to get tiling working. > > Cheers, > Steven > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > From steven.ottens at geodan.nl Wed Apr 12 04:33:00 2006 From: steven.ottens at geodan.nl (Steven M. Ottens) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> Hi Bart, Thanks for the mailinglist tip. It might be possible to rasterize our vector data, but we've got quite some datasets and there will be more of them. It also makes us less flexible. Obviously we've to make a trade-off on flexibility and speed. We hope that with cached tiles we can have both the flexibility and speed. If we rasterise it would make sense to rasterise into fixed tiles I guess. Steven Bart van den Eijnden wrote: > Hi Steven, > > there is an OGC list to discuss tiling: > > http://lists.eogeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiling > > check the archives there. > > What you could also do, since I assume your data is pretty much static, is > use UMN Mapserver to rasterize all your vector data (create Geotiffs e.g.) > and serve out the rasters instead. I guess the classifications used are > heavy on CPU usage, and pre-classified rasters would solve that part at > least. > > Best regards, > Bart > > >> Hi all, >> >> For those who don't know: I'm one of the lead developers on the EduGIS >> project, a site which aims to introduce highschool students to GIS. The >> site contains a webmapping part, which combined with so called >> 'lesson-modules' can be used inside the classroom. >> We aim to be able to have at least 200 students access the site at one >> time. Since it's being used inside the classroom it means that a lot of >> students will do more or less the same thing at the same time (following >> the tasks in the lesson-modules). This causes quite some stress on the >> server. Since it's a free site we have limited budget and cannot put a >> google-style server park behind it ;( >> >> Right now we've got apache to serverside cache the umn mapserver output. >> This obviously works only for those images that are requested twice >> (like the first mapimage). Right now about 30 students can work at the >> same time without it becoming unworkable slow. Since serverside caching >> works, the next logical step to boost performance would be using tiles >> like google. >> But.. >> From what I know, tiling breaks OGC compatibility, right? >> We're using Mapbuilder as client and we prefer to keep using it, since >> it's turning into a rather featureful client on the EduGIS site. But the >> question arises how to implement tiling inside WMC/OWS-context without >> breaking OGC too much. >> Also I'm interested in the used algorithms to get tiling working. >> >> Cheers, >> Steven >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> >> >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > From pspencer at dmsolutions.ca Wed Apr 12 07:17:14 2006 From: pspencer at dmsolutions.ca (Paul Spencer) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> Message-ID: What would be really nice would be to have a MapBuilder widget for ka- Map ;) Mike Adair has mentioned that this is both possible and quite easy to do. Not being very familiar with MapBuilder, I can't comment on that. But if it were possible to do, ka-Map would provide you a tiled interface and you could use your existing map file to do it without breaking ogc compatibility. Cheers Paul On 12-Apr-06, at 4:33 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: > Hi Bart, > > Thanks for the mailinglist tip. > It might be possible to rasterize our vector data, but we've got quite > some datasets and there will be more of them. It also makes us less > flexible. Obviously we've to make a trade-off on flexibility and > speed. > We hope that with cached tiles we can have both the flexibility and > speed. If we rasterise it would make sense to rasterise into fixed > tiles > I guess. > > Steven > > Bart van den Eijnden wrote: >> Hi Steven, >> >> there is an OGC list to discuss tiling: >> >> http://lists.eogeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiling >> >> check the archives there. >> >> What you could also do, since I assume your data is pretty much >> static, is >> use UMN Mapserver to rasterize all your vector data (create >> Geotiffs e.g.) >> and serve out the rasters instead. I guess the classifications >> used are >> heavy on CPU usage, and pre-classified rasters would solve that >> part at >> least. >> >> Best regards, >> Bart >> >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> For those who don't know: I'm one of the lead developers on the >>> EduGIS >>> project, a site which aims to introduce highschool students to >>> GIS. The >>> site contains a webmapping part, which combined with so called >>> 'lesson-modules' can be used inside the classroom. >>> We aim to be able to have at least 200 students access the site >>> at one >>> time. Since it's being used inside the classroom it means that a >>> lot of >>> students will do more or less the same thing at the same time >>> (following >>> the tasks in the lesson-modules). This causes quite some stress >>> on the >>> server. Since it's a free site we have limited budget and cannot >>> put a >>> google-style server park behind it ;( >>> >>> Right now we've got apache to serverside cache the umn mapserver >>> output. >>> This obviously works only for those images that are requested twice >>> (like the first mapimage). Right now about 30 students can work >>> at the >>> same time without it becoming unworkable slow. Since serverside >>> caching >>> works, the next logical step to boost performance would be using >>> tiles >>> like google. >>> But.. >>> From what I know, tiling breaks OGC compatibility, right? >>> We're using Mapbuilder as client and we prefer to keep using it, >>> since >>> it's turning into a rather featureful client on the EduGIS site. >>> But the >>> question arises how to implement tiling inside WMC/OWS-context >>> without >>> breaking OGC too much. >>> Also I'm interested in the used algorithms to get tiling working. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Steven >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Applications & Software Development | |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ From cameron.shorter at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 06:26:02 2006 From: cameron.shorter at gmail.com (Cameron Shorter) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> Message-ID: <443E273A.4000108@gmail.com> Paul, I'm currently allowing a Google Map layer to be included as one of the layers rendered by Mapbuilder. So if you have a standard URL used to call a tiled map server, then we can create a Mapbuilder Layer which accesses the URL (we'd probably base our code on your existing ka-maps code). I'd expect that we would use the Mapbuilder pan/zoom type tools and buttons rather than the ka-map tools. Is that what you were thinking about? Paul Spencer wrote: > What would be really nice would be to have a MapBuilder widget for ka- > Map ;) Mike Adair has mentioned that this is both possible and quite > easy to do. Not being very familiar with MapBuilder, I can't comment > on that. But if it were possible to do, ka-Map would provide you a > tiled interface and you could use your existing map file to do it > without breaking ogc compatibility. > > Cheers > > Paul > > > On 12-Apr-06, at 4:33 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: > >> Hi Bart, >> >> Thanks for the mailinglist tip. >> It might be possible to rasterize our vector data, but we've got quite >> some datasets and there will be more of them. It also makes us less >> flexible. Obviously we've to make a trade-off on flexibility and speed. >> We hope that with cached tiles we can have both the flexibility and >> speed. If we rasterise it would make sense to rasterise into fixed tiles >> I guess. >> >> Steven >> >> Bart van den Eijnden wrote: >> >>> Hi Steven, >>> >>> there is an OGC list to discuss tiling: >>> >>> http://lists.eogeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiling >>> >>> check the archives there. >>> >>> What you could also do, since I assume your data is pretty much >>> static, is >>> use UMN Mapserver to rasterize all your vector data (create Geotiffs >>> e.g.) >>> and serve out the rasters instead. I guess the classifications used are >>> heavy on CPU usage, and pre-classified rasters would solve that part at >>> least. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Bart >>> >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> For those who don't know: I'm one of the lead developers on the EduGIS >>>> project, a site which aims to introduce highschool students to GIS. >>>> The >>>> site contains a webmapping part, which combined with so called >>>> 'lesson-modules' can be used inside the classroom. >>>> We aim to be able to have at least 200 students access the site at one >>>> time. Since it's being used inside the classroom it means that a >>>> lot of >>>> students will do more or less the same thing at the same time >>>> (following >>>> the tasks in the lesson-modules). This causes quite some stress on the >>>> server. Since it's a free site we have limited budget and cannot put a >>>> google-style server park behind it ;( >>>> >>>> Right now we've got apache to serverside cache the umn mapserver >>>> output. >>>> This obviously works only for those images that are requested twice >>>> (like the first mapimage). Right now about 30 students can work at the >>>> same time without it becoming unworkable slow. Since serverside >>>> caching >>>> works, the next logical step to boost performance would be using tiles >>>> like google. >>>> But.. >>>> From what I know, tiling breaks OGC compatibility, right? >>>> We're using Mapbuilder as client and we prefer to keep using it, since >>>> it's turning into a rather featureful client on the EduGIS site. >>>> But the >>>> question arises how to implement tiling inside WMC/OWS-context without >>>> breaking OGC too much. >>>> Also I'm interested in the used algorithms to get tiling working. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Steven >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- - >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>> >>> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> > > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > |Applications & Software Development | > |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > -- Cameron Shorter http://cameron.shorter.net From cameron.shorter at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 16:10:00 2006 From: cameron.shorter at gmail.com (Cameron Shorter) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: Cross-project browser based webmapping workshop for FOSS4G Message-ID: <443EB018.3080001@gmail.com> I'm planning to submit the following abstract for a FOSS4G Workshop. Could you please let me know if your project intends to have someone at the workshop (so I can add it to the list below). --- This workshop aims to bring together representatives from browser based webmapping clients to discuss opportunities to share code and interfaces. In Open Source, we have the advantage that we can share code with our competitors. There are a lot of talented software developers spreading themselves across a range of webmapping applications - all of which have similar functionality. This workshop aims to identify common libraries that can be factored out from our projects and spread development across our developer community. The workshop will cover: * Brief presentation of each project's design, features and use cases. * Discussion around a white board identifying common code. * Identification of libraries and interfaces to be factored out and shared. We expect representatives from the following projects: * Mapbuilder * Mapbender * ka-map? * Open Layers? * Worldkit ? * CivicMaps ? -- Cameron Shorter http://cameron.shorter.net From pspencer at dmsolutions.ca Thu Apr 13 18:14:21 2006 From: pspencer at dmsolutions.ca (Paul Spencer) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Cross-project browser based webmapping workshop for FOSS4G In-Reply-To: <443EB018.3080001@gmail.com> References: <443EB018.3080001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <85C7C99A-9208-431D-81D0-3492D2F67DC3@dmsolutions.ca> Cameron, either myself or Zak James will try to attend the workshop ... I am involved in two other workshops and probably a presentation or two, but as long as the timing doesn't overlap I'll be there. If it does overlap, I'll have Zak attend if he isn't otherwise involved. Cheers Paul On 13-Apr-06, at 4:10 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > I'm planning to submit the following abstract for a FOSS4G Workshop. > Could you please let me know if your project intends to have > someone at the workshop (so I can add it to the list below). > > --- > > This workshop aims to bring together representatives from browser > based webmapping clients to discuss opportunities to share code and > interfaces. > > In Open Source, we have the advantage that we can share code with > our competitors. There are a lot of talented software developers > spreading themselves across a range of webmapping applications - > all of which have similar functionality. This workshop aims to > identify common libraries that can be factored out from our > projects and spread development across our developer community. > > The workshop will cover: > * Brief presentation of each project's design, features and use cases. > * Discussion around a white board identifying common code. > * Identification of libraries and interfaces to be factored out and > shared. > > We expect representatives from the following projects: > * Mapbuilder > * Mapbender > * ka-map? > * Open Layers? > * Worldkit ? > * CivicMaps ? > -- > Cameron Shorter > http://cameron.shorter.net > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Applications & Software Development | |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ From pspencer at dmsolutions.ca Thu Apr 13 18:38:53 2006 From: pspencer at dmsolutions.ca (Paul Spencer) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <443E273A.4000108@gmail.com> References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> <443E273A.4000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <69F91861-9B5C-4B73-A357-06119FAB4103@dmsolutions.ca> Cameron, what do you mean by standard url? ka-Map has a javascript API that handles all the navigation including the smooth panning of the map. While not exactly like google, the api is roughly equivalent. Not sure if you could use mapbuilder's controls or not, it would be cool if you could. I'll take a stab at installing/running MapBuilder this weekend. Do I need to do anything special to use the Google Map layer? Cheers Paul On 13-Apr-06, at 6:26 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > Paul, > I'm currently allowing a Google Map layer to be included as one of > the layers rendered by Mapbuilder. > > So if you have a standard URL used to call a tiled map server, then > we can create a Mapbuilder Layer which accesses the URL (we'd > probably base our code on your existing ka-maps code). > > I'd expect that we would use the Mapbuilder pan/zoom type tools and > buttons rather than the ka-map tools. > > Is that what you were thinking about? > > Paul Spencer wrote: >> What would be really nice would be to have a MapBuilder widget for >> ka- Map ;) Mike Adair has mentioned that this is both possible >> and quite easy to do. Not being very familiar with MapBuilder, I >> can't comment on that. But if it were possible to do, ka-Map >> would provide you a tiled interface and you could use your >> existing map file to do it without breaking ogc compatibility. >> Cheers >> Paul >> On 12-Apr-06, at 4:33 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: >>> Hi Bart, >>> >>> Thanks for the mailinglist tip. >>> It might be possible to rasterize our vector data, but we've got >>> quite >>> some datasets and there will be more of them. It also makes us less >>> flexible. Obviously we've to make a trade-off on flexibility and >>> speed. >>> We hope that with cached tiles we can have both the flexibility and >>> speed. If we rasterise it would make sense to rasterise into >>> fixed tiles >>> I guess. >>> >>> Steven >>> >>> Bart van den Eijnden wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Steven, >>>> >>>> there is an OGC list to discuss tiling: >>>> >>>> http://lists.eogeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiling >>>> >>>> check the archives there. >>>> >>>> What you could also do, since I assume your data is pretty much >>>> static, is >>>> use UMN Mapserver to rasterize all your vector data (create >>>> Geotiffs e.g.) >>>> and serve out the rasters instead. I guess the classifications >>>> used are >>>> heavy on CPU usage, and pre-classified rasters would solve that >>>> part at >>>> least. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Bart >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> For those who don't know: I'm one of the lead developers on >>>>> the EduGIS >>>>> project, a site which aims to introduce highschool students to >>>>> GIS. The >>>>> site contains a webmapping part, which combined with so called >>>>> 'lesson-modules' can be used inside the classroom. >>>>> We aim to be able to have at least 200 students access the >>>>> site at one >>>>> time. Since it's being used inside the classroom it means that >>>>> a lot of >>>>> students will do more or less the same thing at the same time >>>>> (following >>>>> the tasks in the lesson-modules). This causes quite some >>>>> stress on the >>>>> server. Since it's a free site we have limited budget and >>>>> cannot put a >>>>> google-style server park behind it ;( >>>>> >>>>> Right now we've got apache to serverside cache the umn >>>>> mapserver output. >>>>> This obviously works only for those images that are requested >>>>> twice >>>>> (like the first mapimage). Right now about 30 students can >>>>> work at the >>>>> same time without it becoming unworkable slow. Since >>>>> serverside caching >>>>> works, the next logical step to boost performance would be >>>>> using tiles >>>>> like google. >>>>> But.. >>>>> From what I know, tiling breaks OGC compatibility, right? >>>>> We're using Mapbuilder as client and we prefer to keep using >>>>> it, since >>>>> it's turning into a rather featureful client on the EduGIS >>>>> site. But the >>>>> question arises how to implement tiling inside WMC/OWS-context >>>>> without >>>>> breaking OGC too much. >>>>> Also I'm interested in the used algorithms to get tiling working. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Steven >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> -- - >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> -- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>> >> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >> |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >> |Applications & Software Development | >> |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| >> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > > -- > Cameron Shorter > http://cameron.shorter.net > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Applications & Software Development | |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ From cameron.shorter at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 23:33:48 2006 From: cameron.shorter at gmail.com (Cameron Shorter) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <69F91861-9B5C-4B73-A357-06119FAB4103@dmsolutions.ca> References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> <443E273A.4000108@gmail.com> <69F91861-9B5C-4B73-A357-06119FAB4103@dmsolutions.ca> Message-ID: <443F181C.3080702@gmail.com> The "standard URL" I was refering to is the URL of a tile. Both ka-map and mapbuilder have both implemented much of the same functionality. We will need to work out a logical place to split between the ka-map code and the mapbuilder code. I think it would be difficult to use Mapbuilder without Mapbuilder controls. Probably what we would need to do is convert your ka-map tools to fit within the Mapbuilder framework. Paul Spencer wrote: > Cameron, > > what do you mean by standard url? ka-Map has a javascript API that > handles all the navigation including the smooth panning of the map. > While not exactly like google, the api is roughly equivalent. > > Not sure if you could use mapbuilder's controls or not, it would be > cool if you could. > > I'll take a stab at installing/running MapBuilder this weekend. Do I > need to do anything special to use the Google Map layer? > > Cheers > > Paul > > On 13-Apr-06, at 6:26 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > >> Paul, >> I'm currently allowing a Google Map layer to be included as one of >> the layers rendered by Mapbuilder. >> >> So if you have a standard URL used to call a tiled map server, then >> we can create a Mapbuilder Layer which accesses the URL (we'd >> probably base our code on your existing ka-maps code). >> >> I'd expect that we would use the Mapbuilder pan/zoom type tools and >> buttons rather than the ka-map tools. >> >> Is that what you were thinking about? >> >> Paul Spencer wrote: >> >>> What would be really nice would be to have a MapBuilder widget for >>> ka- Map ;) Mike Adair has mentioned that this is both possible and >>> quite easy to do. Not being very familiar with MapBuilder, I can't >>> comment on that. But if it were possible to do, ka-Map would >>> provide you a tiled interface and you could use your existing map >>> file to do it without breaking ogc compatibility. >>> Cheers >>> Paul >>> On 12-Apr-06, at 4:33 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Bart, >>>> >>>> Thanks for the mailinglist tip. >>>> It might be possible to rasterize our vector data, but we've got quite >>>> some datasets and there will be more of them. It also makes us less >>>> flexible. Obviously we've to make a trade-off on flexibility and >>>> speed. >>>> We hope that with cached tiles we can have both the flexibility and >>>> speed. If we rasterise it would make sense to rasterise into fixed >>>> tiles >>>> I guess. >>>> >>>> Steven >>>> >>>> Bart van den Eijnden wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Steven, >>>>> >>>>> there is an OGC list to discuss tiling: >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.eogeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiling >>>>> >>>>> check the archives there. >>>>> >>>>> What you could also do, since I assume your data is pretty much >>>>> static, is >>>>> use UMN Mapserver to rasterize all your vector data (create >>>>> Geotiffs e.g.) >>>>> and serve out the rasters instead. I guess the classifications >>>>> used are >>>>> heavy on CPU usage, and pre-classified rasters would solve that >>>>> part at >>>>> least. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Bart >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> For those who don't know: I'm one of the lead developers on the >>>>>> EduGIS >>>>>> project, a site which aims to introduce highschool students to >>>>>> GIS. The >>>>>> site contains a webmapping part, which combined with so called >>>>>> 'lesson-modules' can be used inside the classroom. >>>>>> We aim to be able to have at least 200 students access the site >>>>>> at one >>>>>> time. Since it's being used inside the classroom it means that a >>>>>> lot of >>>>>> students will do more or less the same thing at the same time >>>>>> (following >>>>>> the tasks in the lesson-modules). This causes quite some stress >>>>>> on the >>>>>> server. Since it's a free site we have limited budget and cannot >>>>>> put a >>>>>> google-style server park behind it ;( >>>>>> >>>>>> Right now we've got apache to serverside cache the umn mapserver >>>>>> output. >>>>>> This obviously works only for those images that are requested twice >>>>>> (like the first mapimage). Right now about 30 students can work >>>>>> at the >>>>>> same time without it becoming unworkable slow. Since serverside >>>>>> caching >>>>>> works, the next logical step to boost performance would be using >>>>>> tiles >>>>>> like google. >>>>>> But.. >>>>>> From what I know, tiling breaks OGC compatibility, right? >>>>>> We're using Mapbuilder as client and we prefer to keep using it, >>>>>> since >>>>>> it's turning into a rather featureful client on the EduGIS site. >>>>>> But the >>>>>> question arises how to implement tiling inside WMC/OWS-context >>>>>> without >>>>>> breaking OGC too much. >>>>>> Also I'm interested in the used algorithms to get tiling working. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Steven >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> -- - >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- - >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>> >>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>> |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>> |Applications & Software Development | >>> |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| >>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> >> >> >> -- >> Cameron Shorter >> http://cameron.shorter.net >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> > > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > |Applications & Software Development | > |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > -- Cameron Shorter http://cameron.shorter.net From eshabtai at gmail.com Fri Apr 14 04:34:50 2006 From: eshabtai at gmail.com (Ehud Shabtai) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <443F181C.3080702@gmail.com> References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> <443E273A.4000108@gmail.com> <69F91861-9B5C-4B73-A357-06119FAB4103@dmsolutions.ca> <443F181C.3080702@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think that the first step should be just to use ka-map's tiles from within mapbuilder. This would enable the usage of ka-map's tile caching along with mapbuilder. As each tile does have a standard URL this should be similar to the google api support in mapbuilder? On 4/14/06, Cameron Shorter wrote: > The "standard URL" I was refering to is the URL of a tile. > > Both ka-map and mapbuilder have both implemented much of the same > functionality. We will need to work out a logical place to split > between the ka-map code and the mapbuilder code. > > I think it would be difficult to use Mapbuilder without Mapbuilder > controls. Probably what we would need to do is convert your ka-map > tools to fit within the Mapbuilder framework. > > Paul Spencer wrote: > > Cameron, > > > > what do you mean by standard url? ka-Map has a javascript API that > > handles all the navigation including the smooth panning of the map. > > While not exactly like google, the api is roughly equivalent. > > > > Not sure if you could use mapbuilder's controls or not, it would be > > cool if you could. > > > > I'll take a stab at installing/running MapBuilder this weekend. Do I > > need to do anything special to use the Google Map layer? > > > > Cheers > > > > Paul > > > > On 13-Apr-06, at 6:26 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > > > >> Paul, > >> I'm currently allowing a Google Map layer to be included as one of > >> the layers rendered by Mapbuilder. > >> > >> So if you have a standard URL used to call a tiled map server, then > >> we can create a Mapbuilder Layer which accesses the URL (we'd > >> probably base our code on your existing ka-maps code). > >> > >> I'd expect that we would use the Mapbuilder pan/zoom type tools and > >> buttons rather than the ka-map tools. > >> > >> Is that what you were thinking about? > >> > >> Paul Spencer wrote: > >> > >>> What would be really nice would be to have a MapBuilder widget for > >>> ka- Map ;) Mike Adair has mentioned that this is both possible and > >>> quite easy to do. Not being very familiar with MapBuilder, I can't > >>> comment on that. But if it were possible to do, ka-Map would > >>> provide you a tiled interface and you could use your existing map > >>> file to do it without breaking ogc compatibility. > >>> Cheers > >>> Paul > >>> On 12-Apr-06, at 4:33 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hi Bart, > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for the mailinglist tip. > >>>> It might be possible to rasterize our vector data, but we've got quite > >>>> some datasets and there will be more of them. It also makes us less > >>>> flexible. Obviously we've to make a trade-off on flexibility and > >>>> speed. > >>>> We hope that with cached tiles we can have both the flexibility and > >>>> speed. If we rasterise it would make sense to rasterise into fixed > >>>> tiles > >>>> I guess. > >>>> > >>>> Steven > >>>> > >>>> Bart van den Eijnden wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi Steven, > >>>>> > >>>>> there is an OGC list to discuss tiling: > >>>>> > >>>>> http://lists.eogeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiling > >>>>> > >>>>> check the archives there. > >>>>> > >>>>> What you could also do, since I assume your data is pretty much > >>>>> static, is > >>>>> use UMN Mapserver to rasterize all your vector data (create > >>>>> Geotiffs e.g.) > >>>>> and serve out the rasters instead. I guess the classifications > >>>>> used are > >>>>> heavy on CPU usage, and pre-classified rasters would solve that > >>>>> part at > >>>>> least. > >>>>> > >>>>> Best regards, > >>>>> Bart > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> For those who don't know: I'm one of the lead developers on the > >>>>>> EduGIS > >>>>>> project, a site which aims to introduce highschool students to > >>>>>> GIS. The > >>>>>> site contains a webmapping part, which combined with so called > >>>>>> 'lesson-modules' can be used inside the classroom. > >>>>>> We aim to be able to have at least 200 students access the site > >>>>>> at one > >>>>>> time. Since it's being used inside the classroom it means that a > >>>>>> lot of > >>>>>> students will do more or less the same thing at the same time > >>>>>> (following > >>>>>> the tasks in the lesson-modules). This causes quite some stress > >>>>>> on the > >>>>>> server. Since it's a free site we have limited budget and cannot > >>>>>> put a > >>>>>> google-style server park behind it ;( > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Right now we've got apache to serverside cache the umn mapserver > >>>>>> output. > >>>>>> This obviously works only for those images that are requested twice > >>>>>> (like the first mapimage). Right now about 30 students can work > >>>>>> at the > >>>>>> same time without it becoming unworkable slow. Since serverside > >>>>>> caching > >>>>>> works, the next logical step to boost performance would be using > >>>>>> tiles > >>>>>> like google. > >>>>>> But.. > >>>>>> From what I know, tiling breaks OGC compatibility, right? > >>>>>> We're using Mapbuilder as client and we prefer to keep using it, > >>>>>> since > >>>>>> it's turning into a rather featureful client on the EduGIS site. > >>>>>> But the > >>>>>> question arises how to implement tiling inside WMC/OWS-context > >>>>>> without > >>>>>> breaking OGC too much. > >>>>>> Also I'm interested in the used algorithms to get tiling working. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>> Steven > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>> -- - > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- help@mail.osgeo.org > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > >>>> > >>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > >>> |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | > >>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > >>> |Applications & Software Development | > >>> |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| > >>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Cameron Shorter > >> http://cameron.shorter.net > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > >> > > > > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > > |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | > > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > > |Applications & Software Development | > > |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| > > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > > > > > > -- > Cameron Shorter > http://cameron.shorter.net > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > -- Ehud Shabtai http://www.freemap.co.il/map/ From arnulf.christl at ccgis.de Fri Apr 14 06:36:57 2006 From: arnulf.christl at ccgis.de (Arnulf Christl) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Cross-project browser based webmapping workshop for FOSS4G In-Reply-To: <443EB018.3080001@gmail.com> References: <443EB018.3080001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <443F7B49.4000908@ccgis.de> Cameron Shorter wrote: > I'm planning to submit the following abstract for a FOSS4G Workshop. > Could you please let me know if your project intends to have someone at > the workshop (so I can add it to the list below). > > --- > > This workshop aims to bring together representatives from browser based > webmapping clients to discuss opportunities to share code and interfaces. > > In Open Source, we have the advantage that we can share code with our > competitors. There are a lot of talented software developers spreading > themselves across a range of webmapping applications - all of which have > similar functionality. This workshop aims to identify common libraries > that can be factored out from our projects and spread development across > our developer community. > > The workshop will cover: > * Brief presentation of each project's design, features and use cases. > * Discussion around a white board identifying common code. > * Identification of libraries and interfaces to be factored out and shared. > > We expect representatives from the following projects: > * Mapbuilder > * Mapbender > * ka-map? > * Open Layers? > * Worldkit ? > * CivicMaps ? Hi Cameron, yes we are interested and I am pretty sure that we will manage to have someone form the core team to represent Mapbender in your proposed workshop. My self has the same problem as Paul. Maybe the organizing committee will manage to align web mapping workshops sequentially so that we can attend them all. Experience with organizing this kind of events shows that there are limits to this kind of scheduling special focus of interest. It might me a good idea to start a web map client typology page in the Wiki describing the general architecture in dry words. This will help to finding out how and where to cooperate. Regards, Arnulf. From pspencer at dmsolutions.ca Fri Apr 14 08:42:44 2006 From: pspencer at dmsolutions.ca (Paul Spencer) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <443F181C.3080702@gmail.com> References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> <443E273A.4000108@gmail.com> <69F91861-9B5C-4B73-A357-06119FAB4103@dmsolutions.ca> <443F181C.3080702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2EBD9CE4-7A05-4B84-B9DD-B47D9B6256A9@dmsolutions.ca> Ok. I'm not sure if the URLs to the tiles are standard. The URL goes to a tile.php script which converts special pixel coordinates into geographic coordinates. The math for the conversion is very simple though, all you need to know is the size of a pixel in geographic coordinates. I'll need to look into mapbuilders controls to understand how to do the integration. Perhaps this could be the start of a common API? ;) Cheers Paul On 13-Apr-06, at 11:33 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > The "standard URL" I was refering to is the URL of a tile. > > Both ka-map and mapbuilder have both implemented much of the same > functionality. We will need to work out a logical place to split > between the ka-map code and the mapbuilder code. > > I think it would be difficult to use Mapbuilder without Mapbuilder > controls. Probably what we would need to do is convert your ka-map > tools to fit within the Mapbuilder framework. > > Paul Spencer wrote: >> Cameron, >> what do you mean by standard url? ka-Map has a javascript API >> that handles all the navigation including the smooth panning of >> the map. While not exactly like google, the api is roughly >> equivalent. >> Not sure if you could use mapbuilder's controls or not, it would >> be cool if you could. >> I'll take a stab at installing/running MapBuilder this weekend. >> Do I need to do anything special to use the Google Map layer? >> Cheers >> Paul >> On 13-Apr-06, at 6:26 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: >>> Paul, >>> I'm currently allowing a Google Map layer to be included as one >>> of the layers rendered by Mapbuilder. >>> >>> So if you have a standard URL used to call a tiled map server, >>> then we can create a Mapbuilder Layer which accesses the URL >>> (we'd probably base our code on your existing ka-maps code). >>> >>> I'd expect that we would use the Mapbuilder pan/zoom type tools >>> and buttons rather than the ka-map tools. >>> >>> Is that what you were thinking about? >>> >>> Paul Spencer wrote: >>> >>>> What would be really nice would be to have a MapBuilder widget >>>> for ka- Map ;) Mike Adair has mentioned that this is both >>>> possible and quite easy to do. Not being very familiar with >>>> MapBuilder, I can't comment on that. But if it were possible >>>> to do, ka-Map would provide you a tiled interface and you >>>> could use your existing map file to do it without breaking ogc >>>> compatibility. >>>> Cheers >>>> Paul >>>> On 12-Apr-06, at 4:33 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Bart, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for the mailinglist tip. >>>>> It might be possible to rasterize our vector data, but we've >>>>> got quite >>>>> some datasets and there will be more of them. It also makes us >>>>> less >>>>> flexible. Obviously we've to make a trade-off on flexibility >>>>> and speed. >>>>> We hope that with cached tiles we can have both the flexibility >>>>> and >>>>> speed. If we rasterise it would make sense to rasterise into >>>>> fixed tiles >>>>> I guess. >>>>> >>>>> Steven >>>>> >>>>> Bart van den Eijnden wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Steven, >>>>>> >>>>>> there is an OGC list to discuss tiling: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://lists.eogeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiling >>>>>> >>>>>> check the archives there. >>>>>> >>>>>> What you could also do, since I assume your data is pretty >>>>>> much static, is >>>>>> use UMN Mapserver to rasterize all your vector data (create >>>>>> Geotiffs e.g.) >>>>>> and serve out the rasters instead. I guess the >>>>>> classifications used are >>>>>> heavy on CPU usage, and pre-classified rasters would solve >>>>>> that part at >>>>>> least. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> Bart >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For those who don't know: I'm one of the lead developers on >>>>>>> the EduGIS >>>>>>> project, a site which aims to introduce highschool students >>>>>>> to GIS. The >>>>>>> site contains a webmapping part, which combined with so called >>>>>>> 'lesson-modules' can be used inside the classroom. >>>>>>> We aim to be able to have at least 200 students access the >>>>>>> site at one >>>>>>> time. Since it's being used inside the classroom it means >>>>>>> that a lot of >>>>>>> students will do more or less the same thing at the same >>>>>>> time (following >>>>>>> the tasks in the lesson-modules). This causes quite some >>>>>>> stress on the >>>>>>> server. Since it's a free site we have limited budget and >>>>>>> cannot put a >>>>>>> google-style server park behind it ;( >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Right now we've got apache to serverside cache the umn >>>>>>> mapserver output. >>>>>>> This obviously works only for those images that are >>>>>>> requested twice >>>>>>> (like the first mapimage). Right now about 30 students can >>>>>>> work at the >>>>>>> same time without it becoming unworkable slow. Since >>>>>>> serverside caching >>>>>>> works, the next logical step to boost performance would be >>>>>>> using tiles >>>>>>> like google. >>>>>>> But.. >>>>>>> From what I know, tiling breaks OGC compatibility, right? >>>>>>> We're using Mapbuilder as client and we prefer to keep using >>>>>>> it, since >>>>>>> it's turning into a rather featureful client on the EduGIS >>>>>>> site. But the >>>>>>> question arises how to implement tiling inside WMC/OWS- >>>>>>> context without >>>>>>> breaking OGC too much. >>>>>>> Also I'm interested in the used algorithms to get tiling >>>>>>> working. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Steven >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> -- -- - >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>> unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> -- -- >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> -- - >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>> >>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>> |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>> |Applications & Software Development | >>>> |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| >>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> -- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cameron Shorter >>> http://cameron.shorter.net >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>> >> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >> |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >> |Applications & Software Development | >> |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| >> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > > -- > Cameron Shorter > http://cameron.shorter.net > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Applications & Software Development | |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ From Mike.Adair at CCRS.NRCan.gc.ca Fri Apr 14 14:45:02 2006 From: Mike.Adair at CCRS.NRCan.gc.ca (Adair, Mike) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling Message-ID: <7CDD7B94357FD5119E800002A537C46E13F6EF2F@s5-ccr-r1.ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca> That's the way I see it too. It's just a new model type and we need a KaMapPane widget for it to write out the tiles in the correct way. Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: Ehud Shabtai [mailto:eshabtai@gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 4:35 AM > To: webmap-discuss@mail.osgeo.org > Subject: Re: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling > > I think that the first step should be just to use ka-map's tiles from > within mapbuilder. This would enable the usage of ka-map's tile > caching along with mapbuilder. > As each tile does have a standard URL this should be similar to the > google api support in mapbuilder? > > > On 4/14/06, Cameron Shorter wrote: > > The "standard URL" I was refering to is the URL of a tile. > > > > Both ka-map and mapbuilder have both implemented much of the same > > functionality. We will need to work out a logical place to split > > between the ka-map code and the mapbuilder code. > > > > I think it would be difficult to use Mapbuilder without Mapbuilder > > controls. Probably what we would need to do is convert your ka-map > > tools to fit within the Mapbuilder framework. > > > > Paul Spencer wrote: > > > Cameron, > > > > > > what do you mean by standard url? ka-Map has a > javascript API that > > > handles all the navigation including the smooth panning > of the map. > > > While not exactly like google, the api is roughly equivalent. > > > > > > Not sure if you could use mapbuilder's controls or not, > it would be > > > cool if you could. > > > > > > I'll take a stab at installing/running MapBuilder this > weekend. Do I > > > need to do anything special to use the Google Map layer? > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > On 13-Apr-06, at 6:26 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > > > > > >> Paul, > > >> I'm currently allowing a Google Map layer to be included > as one of > > >> the layers rendered by Mapbuilder. > > >> > > >> So if you have a standard URL used to call a tiled map > server, then > > >> we can create a Mapbuilder Layer which accesses the URL (we'd > > >> probably base our code on your existing ka-maps code). > > >> > > >> I'd expect that we would use the Mapbuilder pan/zoom > type tools and > > >> buttons rather than the ka-map tools. > > >> > > >> Is that what you were thinking about? > > >> > > >> Paul Spencer wrote: > > >> > > >>> What would be really nice would be to have a MapBuilder > widget for > > >>> ka- Map ;) Mike Adair has mentioned that this is both > possible and > > >>> quite easy to do. Not being very familiar with > MapBuilder, I can't > > >>> comment on that. But if it were possible to do, ka-Map would > > >>> provide you a tiled interface and you could use your > existing map > > >>> file to do it without breaking ogc compatibility. > > >>> Cheers > > >>> Paul > > >>> On 12-Apr-06, at 4:33 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Hi Bart, > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks for the mailinglist tip. > > >>>> It might be possible to rasterize our vector data, but > we've got quite > > >>>> some datasets and there will be more of them. It also > makes us less > > >>>> flexible. Obviously we've to make a trade-off on > flexibility and > > >>>> speed. > > >>>> We hope that with cached tiles we can have both the > flexibility and > > >>>> speed. If we rasterise it would make sense to > rasterise into fixed > > >>>> tiles > > >>>> I guess. > > >>>> > > >>>> Steven > > >>>> > > >>>> Bart van den Eijnden wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Hi Steven, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> there is an OGC list to discuss tiling: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> http://lists.eogeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiling > > >>>>> > > >>>>> check the archives there. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> What you could also do, since I assume your data is > pretty much > > >>>>> static, is > > >>>>> use UMN Mapserver to rasterize all your vector data (create > > >>>>> Geotiffs e.g.) > > >>>>> and serve out the rasters instead. I guess the classifications > > >>>>> used are > > >>>>> heavy on CPU usage, and pre-classified rasters would > solve that > > >>>>> part at > > >>>>> least. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Best regards, > > >>>>> Bart > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Hi all, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> For those who don't know: I'm one of the lead > developers on the > > >>>>>> EduGIS > > >>>>>> project, a site which aims to introduce highschool > students to > > >>>>>> GIS. The > > >>>>>> site contains a webmapping part, which combined with > so called > > >>>>>> 'lesson-modules' can be used inside the classroom. > > >>>>>> We aim to be able to have at least 200 students > access the site > > >>>>>> at one > > >>>>>> time. Since it's being used inside the classroom it > means that a > > >>>>>> lot of > > >>>>>> students will do more or less the same thing at the same time > > >>>>>> (following > > >>>>>> the tasks in the lesson-modules). This causes quite > some stress > > >>>>>> on the > > >>>>>> server. Since it's a free site we have limited > budget and cannot > > >>>>>> put a > > >>>>>> google-style server park behind it ;( > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Right now we've got apache to serverside cache the > umn mapserver > > >>>>>> output. > > >>>>>> This obviously works only for those images that are > requested twice > > >>>>>> (like the first mapimage). Right now about 30 > students can work > > >>>>>> at the > > >>>>>> same time without it becoming unworkable slow. Since > serverside > > >>>>>> caching > > >>>>>> works, the next logical step to boost performance > would be using > > >>>>>> tiles > > >>>>>> like google. > > >>>>>> But.. > > >>>>>> From what I know, tiling breaks OGC compatibility, right? > > >>>>>> We're using Mapbuilder as client and we prefer to > keep using it, > > >>>>>> since > > >>>>>> it's turning into a rather featureful client on the > EduGIS site. > > >>>>>> But the > > >>>>>> question arises how to implement tiling inside > WMC/OWS-context > > >>>>>> without > > >>>>>> breaking OGC too much. > > >>>>>> Also I'm interested in the used algorithms to get > tiling working. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Cheers, > > >>>>>> Steven > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >>>>>> -- - > > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > > >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- > help@mail.osgeo.org > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > > >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: > webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: > webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > >>>> > > >>> > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > > >>> |Paul Spencer > pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | > > >>> > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > > >>> |Applications & Software Development > | > > >>> |DM Solutions Group Inc > http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| > > >>> > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > > >>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: > webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Cameron Shorter > > >> http://cameron.shorter.net > > >> > > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: > webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > >> > > > > > > > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > |Paul Spencer > pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | > > > > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > |Applications & Software Development > | > > > |DM Solutions Group Inc > http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| > > > > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Cameron Shorter > > http://cameron.shorter.net > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > > > > > > -- > Ehud Shabtai > http://www.freemap.co.il/map/ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > From pspencer at dmsolutions.ca Sun Apr 23 15:41:45 2006 From: pspencer at dmsolutions.ca (Paul Spencer) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] webmap workshop at FOSS4G 2006 Conference In-Reply-To: <443A3BA1.3000504@gmail.com> References: <443A3BA1.3000504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49E52A37-3450-46C0-B05F-071D4637C0E7@dmsolutions.ca> Cameron, did you get a workshop organized for this? Cheers Paul On 10-Apr-06, at 7:04 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > I propose we organise a webmap workshop at the FOSS4G conference: > http://www.foss4g2006.org/ > (FOSS4G 2006, 12-15 September 2006, Lausanne Switzerland) > > In the workshop I'd like to see representatives from webmapping > clients identify and discuss: > 1. Common Use Cases > 2. Common interfaces that we can share and develop to. > 3. Common functionality that we can factor out into shared libraries. > > I imagine this would work best up to 20 people representing up to 5 > projects around a whiteboard. > > Anything else I've forgotten? > > Claude, how long are the workshops? > > -- > Cameron Shorter > http://cameron.shorter.net > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Applications & Software Development | |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ From cameron.shorter at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 16:12:40 2006 From: cameron.shorter at gmail.com (Cameron Shorter) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] webmap workshop at FOSS4G 2006 Conference In-Reply-To: <49E52A37-3450-46C0-B05F-071D4637C0E7@dmsolutions.ca> References: <443A3BA1.3000504@gmail.com> <49E52A37-3450-46C0-B05F-071D4637C0E7@dmsolutions.ca> Message-ID: <444BDFB8.6040900@gmail.com> Yes, I proposed a 2 hour workshop. (I'm sure we could use more time, but it we keep it to 2 hours, I think it will be easier for all key participants to attend.) Paul Spencer wrote: > Cameron, did you get a workshop organized for this? > > Cheers > > Paul > > On 10-Apr-06, at 7:04 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > >> I propose we organise a webmap workshop at the FOSS4G conference: >> http://www.foss4g2006.org/ >> (FOSS4G 2006, 12-15 September 2006, Lausanne Switzerland) >> >> In the workshop I'd like to see representatives from webmapping >> clients identify and discuss: >> 1. Common Use Cases >> 2. Common interfaces that we can share and develop to. >> 3. Common functionality that we can factor out into shared libraries. >> >> I imagine this would work best up to 20 people representing up to 5 >> projects around a whiteboard. >> >> Anything else I've forgotten? >> >> Claude, how long are the workshops? >> >> -- >> Cameron Shorter >> http://cameron.shorter.net >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> > > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > |Applications & Software Development | > |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > -- Cameron Shorter http://cameron.shorter.net From steven.ottens at geodan.nl Thu Apr 27 04:32:40 2006 From: steven.ottens at geodan.nl (Steven M. Ottens) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <2EBD9CE4-7A05-4B84-B9DD-B47D9B6256A9@dmsolutions.ca> References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> <443E273A.4000108@gmail.com> <69F91861-9B5C-4B73-A357-06119FAB4103@dmsolutions.ca> <443F181C.3080702@gmail.com> <2EBD9CE4-7A05-4B84-B9DD-B47D9B6256A9@dmsolutions.ca> Message-ID: <445081A8.1030105@geodan.nl> Hi Paul, Why did you choose to use a php script to handle tiling? It makes it much harder for ka-map to become a general webmapping client, currently it is strongly tied to mapserver. Also for me it's more difficult to integrate it with mapbuilder, if I want to keep mapbuilder general. Why not integrate the routine in the clientside and request tiles like this: http://www.edugis.nl/cgi-bin/edugis/mapserv.cgi?map=maps/edugis/base.map&VERSION=1.1.0&REQUEST=GetMap&LAYERS=topografie&STYLES=default&SRS=EPSG:4326&BBOX=4.833984375,52.26815737376817,4.921875,52.32191088594773&WIDTH=256&HEIGHT=256&FORMAT=image/png&TRANSPARENT=TRUE&EXCEPTIONS=INIMAGE (this is a request from a gmap-based application) The important part, obviously, to make sure that the tiles have the same size (easy) and the same coordinates regardless of the client. grt, Steven Paul Spencer wrote: > Ok. I'm not sure if the URLs to the tiles are standard. The URL goes > to a tile.php script which converts special pixel coordinates into > geographic coordinates. The math for the conversion is very simple > though, all you need to know is the size of a pixel in geographic > coordinates. > > I'll need to look into mapbuilders controls to understand how to do > the integration. Perhaps this could be the start of a common API? ;) > > Cheers > > Paul > > On 13-Apr-06, at 11:33 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote: > >> The "standard URL" I was refering to is the URL of a tile. >> >> Both ka-map and mapbuilder have both implemented much of the same >> functionality. We will need to work out a logical place to split >> between the ka-map code and the mapbuilder code. >> >> I think it would be difficult to use Mapbuilder without Mapbuilder >> controls. Probably what we would need to do is convert your ka-map >> tools to fit within the Mapbuilder framework. >> >> Paul Spencer wrote: >>> Cameron, >>> what do you mean by standard url? ka-Map has a javascript API that >>> handles all the navigation including the smooth panning of the >>> map. While not exactly like google, the api is roughly equivalent. >>> Not sure if you could use mapbuilder's controls or not, it would be >>> cool if you could. >>> I'll take a stab at installing/running MapBuilder this weekend. Do >>> I need to do anything special to use the Google Map layer? >>> Cheers >>> Paul >>> On 13-Apr-06, at 6:26 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: >>>> Paul, >>>> I'm currently allowing a Google Map layer to be included as one of >>>> the layers rendered by Mapbuilder. >>>> >>>> So if you have a standard URL used to call a tiled map server, >>>> then we can create a Mapbuilder Layer which accesses the URL >>>> (we'd probably base our code on your existing ka-maps code). >>>> >>>> I'd expect that we would use the Mapbuilder pan/zoom type tools >>>> and buttons rather than the ka-map tools. >>>> >>>> Is that what you were thinking about? >>>> >>>> Paul Spencer wrote: >>>> >>>>> What would be really nice would be to have a MapBuilder widget >>>>> for ka- Map ;) Mike Adair has mentioned that this is both >>>>> possible and quite easy to do. Not being very familiar with >>>>> MapBuilder, I can't comment on that. But if it were possible to >>>>> do, ka-Map would provide you a tiled interface and you could use >>>>> your existing map file to do it without breaking ogc compatibility. >>>>> Cheers >>>>> Paul >>>>> On 12-Apr-06, at 4:33 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Bart, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for the mailinglist tip. >>>>>> It might be possible to rasterize our vector data, but we've got >>>>>> quite >>>>>> some datasets and there will be more of them. It also makes us less >>>>>> flexible. Obviously we've to make a trade-off on flexibility >>>>>> and speed. >>>>>> We hope that with cached tiles we can have both the flexibility and >>>>>> speed. If we rasterise it would make sense to rasterise into >>>>>> fixed tiles >>>>>> I guess. >>>>>> >>>>>> Steven >>>>>> >>>>>> Bart van den Eijnden wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Steven, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> there is an OGC list to discuss tiling: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://lists.eogeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiling >>>>>>> >>>>>>> check the archives there. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What you could also do, since I assume your data is pretty >>>>>>> much static, is >>>>>>> use UMN Mapserver to rasterize all your vector data (create >>>>>>> Geotiffs e.g.) >>>>>>> and serve out the rasters instead. I guess the classifications >>>>>>> used are >>>>>>> heavy on CPU usage, and pre-classified rasters would solve >>>>>>> that part at >>>>>>> least. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> Bart >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For those who don't know: I'm one of the lead developers on >>>>>>>> the EduGIS >>>>>>>> project, a site which aims to introduce highschool students >>>>>>>> to GIS. The >>>>>>>> site contains a webmapping part, which combined with so called >>>>>>>> 'lesson-modules' can be used inside the classroom. >>>>>>>> We aim to be able to have at least 200 students access the >>>>>>>> site at one >>>>>>>> time. Since it's being used inside the classroom it means that >>>>>>>> a lot of >>>>>>>> students will do more or less the same thing at the same time >>>>>>>> (following >>>>>>>> the tasks in the lesson-modules). This causes quite some >>>>>>>> stress on the >>>>>>>> server. Since it's a free site we have limited budget and >>>>>>>> cannot put a >>>>>>>> google-style server park behind it ;( >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Right now we've got apache to serverside cache the umn >>>>>>>> mapserver output. >>>>>>>> This obviously works only for those images that are requested >>>>>>>> twice >>>>>>>> (like the first mapimage). Right now about 30 students can >>>>>>>> work at the >>>>>>>> same time without it becoming unworkable slow. Since >>>>>>>> serverside caching >>>>>>>> works, the next logical step to boost performance would be >>>>>>>> using tiles >>>>>>>> like google. >>>>>>>> But.. >>>>>>>> From what I know, tiling breaks OGC compatibility, right? >>>>>>>> We're using Mapbuilder as client and we prefer to keep using >>>>>>>> it, since >>>>>>>> it's turning into a rather featureful client on the EduGIS >>>>>>>> site. But the >>>>>>>> question arises how to implement tiling inside >>>>>>>> WMC/OWS-context without >>>>>>>> breaking OGC too much. >>>>>>>> Also I'm interested in the used algorithms to get tiling working. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Steven >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>> -- - >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> - >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>> >>>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>>> |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >>>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>>> |Applications & Software Development | >>>>> |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| >>>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --Cameron Shorter >>>> http://cameron.shorter.net >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>> >>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>> |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>> |Applications & Software Development | >>> |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| >>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> >> >> --Cameron Shorter >> http://cameron.shorter.net >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> > > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > |Applications & Software Development | > |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > From pspencer at dmsolutions.ca Thu Apr 27 08:03:24 2006 From: pspencer at dmsolutions.ca (Paul Spencer) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <445081A8.1030105@geodan.nl> References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> <443E273A.4000108@gmail.com> <69F91861-9B5C-4B73-A357-06119FAB4103@dmsolutions.ca> <443F181C.3080702@gmail.com> <2EBD9CE4-7A05-4B84-B9DD-B47D9B6256A9@dmsolutions.ca> <445081A8.1030105@geodan.nl> Message-ID: <93D60DCB-5FEB-4D95-9632-3E71C99F4DE4@dmsolutions.ca> Steven there are a couple of very good reasons for this (in my opinion). The approach you suggest is actually the first one I tried because I was focussing on the client side code at the time. It became obvious that it would not actually work in a real world situation because: 1) every request to mapserv starts the CGI, loads the map, renders the map and returns it. This takes a substantial amount of time, even if your map file and data are highly optimized. For instance, my test cases would take about 1-2 seconds per tile, with a HUGE load on the server. 2) every request to mapserv is treated as a single map draw. This means that all label locations are calculated for that tile only. In many cases, labels are too big to fit on a single tile. In others, you have a label that fills the tile and because the feature extends across multiple tiles, you may get the identical label repeated next to each other many times. 3) mapserv has rendering issues that are difficult to detect when rendering a single image, but when you render tiles, they become very obvious. The worst is thick lines rendered with a 'circle' symbol, the ends of the line (at the map draw boundary) are tailed off ... when two tiles come together, there is a very noticeable 'shearing' effect on the lines which looks very bad. 4) it is not possible to modify the headers returned from the cgi, which means that you get the default browser caching behaviour. In many cases, tiles can be cached for a long time, and in some specific cases you want no caching at all. 5) I wanted to have some way of providing the capability to switch between maps. This requires some knowledge of what maps are available on the server. There is no way to do this with the CGI 6) in ka-Map (as with Google), you are restricted to a specific set of scales for viewing the map. This is not strictly necessary if you are not caching the tiles, but in the case of cached tiles it does become very important. Cartographically, this means you can build your map file for very specific scale breaks and ensure that the map looks exactly right at each of the scales. Using just the cgi, it would be impossible to determine the intended scale breaks for a given map. On a related note, however, if you wanted to try this anyway there is a wmsLayer type in kaMap that can be used to create layers based on remote WMS sources on the fly. It would be a useful exercise to remove the server-side dependency in ka-Map's initialization step and only trigger it on demand so that an 'empty' map could be created to which you could add some number of wms layers. This would be a very good fit as it would remove the server-side dependency and, as MapBuilder is already very ogc-aware, it would be easy to integrate. I may be willing to invest some effort in getting this to work at some point, especially if there is some interest/cooperation from the MapBuilder community (which has already been offered btw, thanks Mike and Cameron) Cheers Paul On 27-Apr-06, at 4:32 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: > Hi Paul, > > Why did you choose to use a php script to handle tiling? It makes it > much harder for ka-map to become a general webmapping client, > currently > it is strongly tied to mapserver. Also for me it's more difficult to > integrate it with mapbuilder, if I want to keep mapbuilder general. > Why not integrate the routine in the clientside and request tiles > like this: > http://www.edugis.nl/cgi-bin/edugis/mapserv.cgi?map=maps/edugis/ > base.map&VERSION=1.1.0&REQUEST=GetMap&LAYERS=topografie&STYLES=default > &SRS=EPSG: > 4326&BBOX=4.833984375,52.26815737376817,4.921875,52.32191088594773&WID > TH=256&HEIGHT=256&FORMAT=image/png&TRANSPARENT=TRUE&EXCEPTIONS=INIMAGE > (this is a request from a gmap-based application) > The important part, obviously, to make sure that the tiles have the > same > size (easy) and the same coordinates regardless of the client. > > > grt, > Steven > > > > Paul Spencer wrote: >> Ok. I'm not sure if the URLs to the tiles are standard. The URL >> goes >> to a tile.php script which converts special pixel coordinates into >> geographic coordinates. The math for the conversion is very simple >> though, all you need to know is the size of a pixel in geographic >> coordinates. >> >> I'll need to look into mapbuilders controls to understand how to do >> the integration. Perhaps this could be the start of a common API? ;) >> >> Cheers >> >> Paul >> >> On 13-Apr-06, at 11:33 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote: >> >>> The "standard URL" I was refering to is the URL of a tile. >>> >>> Both ka-map and mapbuilder have both implemented much of the same >>> functionality. We will need to work out a logical place to split >>> between the ka-map code and the mapbuilder code. >>> >>> I think it would be difficult to use Mapbuilder without Mapbuilder >>> controls. Probably what we would need to do is convert your ka-map >>> tools to fit within the Mapbuilder framework. >>> >>> Paul Spencer wrote: >>>> Cameron, >>>> what do you mean by standard url? ka-Map has a javascript API that >>>> handles all the navigation including the smooth panning of the >>>> map. While not exactly like google, the api is roughly >>>> equivalent. >>>> Not sure if you could use mapbuilder's controls or not, it would be >>>> cool if you could. >>>> I'll take a stab at installing/running MapBuilder this weekend. Do >>>> I need to do anything special to use the Google Map layer? >>>> Cheers >>>> Paul >>>> On 13-Apr-06, at 6:26 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: >>>>> Paul, >>>>> I'm currently allowing a Google Map layer to be included as one of >>>>> the layers rendered by Mapbuilder. >>>>> >>>>> So if you have a standard URL used to call a tiled map server, >>>>> then we can create a Mapbuilder Layer which accesses the URL >>>>> (we'd probably base our code on your existing ka-maps code). >>>>> >>>>> I'd expect that we would use the Mapbuilder pan/zoom type tools >>>>> and buttons rather than the ka-map tools. >>>>> >>>>> Is that what you were thinking about? >>>>> >>>>> Paul Spencer wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> What would be really nice would be to have a MapBuilder widget >>>>>> for ka- Map ;) Mike Adair has mentioned that this is both >>>>>> possible and quite easy to do. Not being very familiar with >>>>>> MapBuilder, I can't comment on that. But if it were >>>>>> possible to >>>>>> do, ka-Map would provide you a tiled interface and you could >>>>>> use >>>>>> your existing map file to do it without breaking ogc >>>>>> compatibility. >>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> Paul >>>>>> On 12-Apr-06, at 4:33 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Bart, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for the mailinglist tip. >>>>>>> It might be possible to rasterize our vector data, but we've got >>>>>>> quite >>>>>>> some datasets and there will be more of them. It also makes >>>>>>> us less >>>>>>> flexible. Obviously we've to make a trade-off on flexibility >>>>>>> and speed. >>>>>>> We hope that with cached tiles we can have both the >>>>>>> flexibility and >>>>>>> speed. If we rasterise it would make sense to rasterise into >>>>>>> fixed tiles >>>>>>> I guess. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steven >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bart van den Eijnden wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Steven, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> there is an OGC list to discuss tiling: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://lists.eogeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiling >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> check the archives there. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What you could also do, since I assume your data is pretty >>>>>>>> much static, is >>>>>>>> use UMN Mapserver to rasterize all your vector data (create >>>>>>>> Geotiffs e.g.) >>>>>>>> and serve out the rasters instead. I guess the classifications >>>>>>>> used are >>>>>>>> heavy on CPU usage, and pre-classified rasters would solve >>>>>>>> that part at >>>>>>>> least. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> Bart >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For those who don't know: I'm one of the lead developers on >>>>>>>>> the EduGIS >>>>>>>>> project, a site which aims to introduce highschool students >>>>>>>>> to GIS. The >>>>>>>>> site contains a webmapping part, which combined with so called >>>>>>>>> 'lesson-modules' can be used inside the classroom. >>>>>>>>> We aim to be able to have at least 200 students access the >>>>>>>>> site at one >>>>>>>>> time. Since it's being used inside the classroom it means that >>>>>>>>> a lot of >>>>>>>>> students will do more or less the same thing at the same time >>>>>>>>> (following >>>>>>>>> the tasks in the lesson-modules). This causes quite some >>>>>>>>> stress on the >>>>>>>>> server. Since it's a free site we have limited budget and >>>>>>>>> cannot put a >>>>>>>>> google-style server park behind it ;( >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Right now we've got apache to serverside cache the umn >>>>>>>>> mapserver output. >>>>>>>>> This obviously works only for those images that are requested >>>>>>>>> twice >>>>>>>>> (like the first mapimage). Right now about 30 students can >>>>>>>>> work at the >>>>>>>>> same time without it becoming unworkable slow. Since >>>>>>>>> serverside caching >>>>>>>>> works, the next logical step to boost performance would be >>>>>>>>> using tiles >>>>>>>>> like google. >>>>>>>>> But.. >>>>>>>>> From what I know, tiling breaks OGC compatibility, right? >>>>>>>>> We're using Mapbuilder as client and we prefer to keep using >>>>>>>>> it, since >>>>>>>>> it's turning into a rather featureful client on the EduGIS >>>>>>>>> site. But the >>>>>>>>> question arises how to implement tiling inside >>>>>>>>> WMC/OWS-context without >>>>>>>>> breaking OGC too much. >>>>>>>>> Also I'm interested in the used algorithms to get tiling >>>>>>>>> working. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Steven >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>>>> -- - >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>>>> unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>>> unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>> - >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>> unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> +---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> -+ >>>>>> |Paul Spencer >>>>>> pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >>>>>> +---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> -+ >>>>>> |Applications & Software >>>>>> Development | >>>>>> |DM Solutions Group Inc http:// >>>>>> www.dmsolutions.ca/| >>>>>> +---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> -+ >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> ---- >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --Cameron Shorter >>>>> http://cameron.shorter.net >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> --- >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>> >>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>> |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>> |Applications & Software Development | >>>> |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| >>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> -- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>> >>> >>> --Cameron Shorter >>> http://cameron.shorter.net >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>> >> >> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >> |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >> |Applications & Software Development | >> |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| >> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Applications & Software Development | |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ From steven.ottens at geodan.nl Thu Apr 27 10:00:25 2006 From: steven.ottens at geodan.nl (Steven M. Ottens) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <93D60DCB-5FEB-4D95-9632-3E71C99F4DE4@dmsolutions.ca> References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> <443E273A.4000108@gmail.com> <69F91861-9B5C-4B73-A357-06119FAB4103@dmsolutions.ca> <443F181C.3080702@gmail.com> <2EBD9CE4-7A05-4B84-B9DD-B47D9B6256A9@dmsolutions.ca> <445081A8.1030105@geodan.nl> <93D60DCB-5FEB-4D95-9632-3E71C99F4DE4@dmsolutions.ca> Message-ID: <4450CE79.6020104@geodan.nl> Paul Spencer wrote: > Steven > > there are a couple of very good reasons for this (in my opinion). The > approach you suggest is actually the first one I tried because I was > focussing on the client side code at the time. It became obvious that > it would not actually work in a real world situation because: > > 1) every request to mapserv starts the CGI, loads the map, renders the > map and returns it. This takes a substantial amount of time, even if > your map file and data are highly optimized. For instance, my test > cases would take about 1-2 seconds per tile, with a HUGE load on the > server. The idea is to get serverside cache, we have caching working on mapserver.cgi requests, which means it can can deliver lots and lots of tiles in a second. The reason I'm developing tiling is because our current setup can only handle 20 concurrent users and we need 300. If we can server from cache we can do that, and tiling is a way to make sure identical images are served to users and as such can be served from cache. Also in your situation you need to run a tile.php, a mapserver.cgi and a gd (why btw?) image process. If you multiply this 300 times it's also quite a load on the server. I prefer to keep as much load on the client side as possible. > > 2) every request to mapserv is treated as a single map draw. This > means that all label locations are calculated for that tile only. In > many cases, labels are too big to fit on a single tile. In others, > you have a label that fills the tile and because the feature extends > across multiple tiles, you may get the identical label repeated next > to each other many times. that is a problem indeed :( But if you keep a reasonable tile size it's not too disturbing. > > 3) mapserv has rendering issues that are difficult to detect when > rendering a single image, but when you render tiles, they become very > obvious. The worst is thick lines rendered with a 'circle' symbol, > the ends of the line (at the map draw boundary) are tailed off ... > when two tiles come together, there is a very noticeable 'shearing' > effect on the lines which looks very bad. bad, bad, mapserver ;) I noticed the glitches after careful inspection. So either our data is not sensitive to this error or you have better eyes ;) > > 4) it is not possible to modify the headers returned from the cgi, > which means that you get the default browser caching behaviour. In > many cases, tiles can be cached for a long time, and in some specific > cases you want no caching at all. You can modify headers with apache, we set expiry dates for all of our mapimages. In our case the data is not very dynamic so a expiry date of a day or even a week is fine. > > 5) I wanted to have some way of providing the capability to switch > between maps. This requires some knowledge of what maps are available > on the server. There is no way to do this with the CGI That's not a real tiling issue, is it? In mapbuilder you can create a list of available layers based on the getCapabilitiesDoc. I use that to provide alternative layers. > > 6) in ka-Map (as with Google), you are restricted to a specific set of > scales for viewing the map. This is not strictly necessary if you are > not caching the tiles, but in the case of cached tiles it does become > very important. Cartographically, this means you can build your map > file for very specific scale breaks and ensure that the map looks > exactly right at each of the scales. Using just the cgi, it would be > impossible to determine the intended scale breaks for a given map. The getCapabilitiesDoc provides minimum and maximum scales so they can be used to determine the scale levels. Alternatively you will need to configure these scale levels in the configuration file. I do see an issue here, but I don't think it's a real showstopper. > > On a related note, however, if you wanted to try this anyway there is > a wmsLayer type in kaMap that can be used to create layers based on > remote WMS sources on the fly. It would be a useful exercise to > remove the server-side dependency in ka-Map's initialization step and > only trigger it on demand so that an 'empty' map could be created to > which you could add some number of wms layers. This would be a very > good fit as it would remove the server-side dependency and, as > MapBuilder is already very ogc-aware, it would be easy to integrate. The empty map is the one with the aPixel.src which I find every now and then in the ka-map code? I'm still trying to understand kamaps approach to building the tiles. Do you mean that you create a empty 'grid' of tiles, where you attach the layers on? > > I may be willing to invest some effort in getting this to work at some > point, especially if there is some interest/cooperation from the > MapBuilder community (which has already been offered btw, thanks Mike > and Cameron) I am the one from the mapbuilder community who is working on tiling ;) We (the mb community) are interested in tiling, be it Ka-map style, openlayers-style or our own implementation. I prefer cooperation with other webmapping projects, instead of our own implementation. I was brainstorming with Cameron on this topic and I can up with an alternative approach to tiling. Based on your concerns on the edges and the labels (also the performance, but that can be solved by serverside caching): Why not extend the WMS standard with a &tile=true parameter. It will be one request, but mapserver will create 'absolute' tiles and set a set of tiles back. This requires modification on both the WMS server and the WMS client and as such not easily done, but I think it's in the long run a better solution. Meanwhile I'll continue on a pure clientside tiling mechanism. We will probably discuss it at the mapbuilder meeting of next week. Anyone interested in this topic is free to join. Steven > > Cheers > > Paul > > On 27-Apr-06, at 4:32 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: > >> Hi Paul, >> >> Why did you choose to use a php script to handle tiling? It makes it >> much harder for ka-map to become a general webmapping client, currently >> it is strongly tied to mapserver. Also for me it's more difficult to >> integrate it with mapbuilder, if I want to keep mapbuilder general. >> Why not integrate the routine in the clientside and request tiles >> like this: >> http://www.edugis.nl/cgi-bin/edugis/mapserv.cgi?map=maps/edugis/base.map&VERSION=1.1.0&REQUEST=GetMap&LAYERS=topografie&STYLES=default&SRS=EPSG:4326&BBOX=4.833984375,52.26815737376817,4.921875,52.32191088594773&WIDTH=256&HEIGHT=256&FORMAT=image/png&TRANSPARENT=TRUE&EXCEPTIONS=INIMAGE >> >> (this is a request from a gmap-based application) >> The important part, obviously, to make sure that the tiles have the same >> size (easy) and the same coordinates regardless of the client. >> >> >> grt, >> Steven >> >> >> >> Paul Spencer wrote: >>> Ok. I'm not sure if the URLs to the tiles are standard. The URL goes >>> to a tile.php script which converts special pixel coordinates into >>> geographic coordinates. The math for the conversion is very simple >>> though, all you need to know is the size of a pixel in geographic >>> coordinates. >>> >>> I'll need to look into mapbuilders controls to understand how to do >>> the integration. Perhaps this could be the start of a common API? ;) >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> On 13-Apr-06, at 11:33 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote: >>> >>>> The "standard URL" I was refering to is the URL of a tile. >>>> >>>> Both ka-map and mapbuilder have both implemented much of the same >>>> functionality. We will need to work out a logical place to split >>>> between the ka-map code and the mapbuilder code. >>>> >>>> I think it would be difficult to use Mapbuilder without Mapbuilder >>>> controls. Probably what we would need to do is convert your ka-map >>>> tools to fit within the Mapbuilder framework. >>>> >>>> Paul Spencer wrote: >>>>> Cameron, >>>>> what do you mean by standard url? ka-Map has a javascript API that >>>>> handles all the navigation including the smooth panning of the >>>>> map. While not exactly like google, the api is roughly equivalent. >>>>> Not sure if you could use mapbuilder's controls or not, it would be >>>>> cool if you could. >>>>> I'll take a stab at installing/running MapBuilder this weekend. Do >>>>> I need to do anything special to use the Google Map layer? >>>>> Cheers >>>>> Paul >>>>> On 13-Apr-06, at 6:26 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: >>>>>> Paul, >>>>>> I'm currently allowing a Google Map layer to be included as one of >>>>>> the layers rendered by Mapbuilder. >>>>>> >>>>>> So if you have a standard URL used to call a tiled map server, >>>>>> then we can create a Mapbuilder Layer which accesses the URL >>>>>> (we'd probably base our code on your existing ka-maps code). >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd expect that we would use the Mapbuilder pan/zoom type tools >>>>>> and buttons rather than the ka-map tools. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is that what you were thinking about? >>>>>> >>>>>> Paul Spencer wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> What would be really nice would be to have a MapBuilder widget >>>>>>> for ka- Map ;) Mike Adair has mentioned that this is both >>>>>>> possible and quite easy to do. Not being very familiar with >>>>>>> MapBuilder, I can't comment on that. But if it were possible to >>>>>>> do, ka-Map would provide you a tiled interface and you could use >>>>>>> your existing map file to do it without breaking ogc >>>>>>> compatibility. >>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>> On 12-Apr-06, at 4:33 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Bart, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for the mailinglist tip. >>>>>>>> It might be possible to rasterize our vector data, but we've got >>>>>>>> quite >>>>>>>> some datasets and there will be more of them. It also makes us >>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>> flexible. Obviously we've to make a trade-off on flexibility >>>>>>>> and speed. >>>>>>>> We hope that with cached tiles we can have both the flexibility >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> speed. If we rasterise it would make sense to rasterise into >>>>>>>> fixed tiles >>>>>>>> I guess. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steven >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bart van den Eijnden wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Steven, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> there is an OGC list to discuss tiling: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://lists.eogeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiling >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> check the archives there. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What you could also do, since I assume your data is pretty >>>>>>>>> much static, is >>>>>>>>> use UMN Mapserver to rasterize all your vector data (create >>>>>>>>> Geotiffs e.g.) >>>>>>>>> and serve out the rasters instead. I guess the classifications >>>>>>>>> used are >>>>>>>>> heavy on CPU usage, and pre-classified rasters would solve >>>>>>>>> that part at >>>>>>>>> least. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>> Bart >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For those who don't know: I'm one of the lead developers on >>>>>>>>>> the EduGIS >>>>>>>>>> project, a site which aims to introduce highschool students >>>>>>>>>> to GIS. The >>>>>>>>>> site contains a webmapping part, which combined with so called >>>>>>>>>> 'lesson-modules' can be used inside the classroom. >>>>>>>>>> We aim to be able to have at least 200 students access the >>>>>>>>>> site at one >>>>>>>>>> time. Since it's being used inside the classroom it means that >>>>>>>>>> a lot of >>>>>>>>>> students will do more or less the same thing at the same time >>>>>>>>>> (following >>>>>>>>>> the tasks in the lesson-modules). This causes quite some >>>>>>>>>> stress on the >>>>>>>>>> server. Since it's a free site we have limited budget and >>>>>>>>>> cannot put a >>>>>>>>>> google-style server park behind it ;( >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Right now we've got apache to serverside cache the umn >>>>>>>>>> mapserver output. >>>>>>>>>> This obviously works only for those images that are requested >>>>>>>>>> twice >>>>>>>>>> (like the first mapimage). Right now about 30 students can >>>>>>>>>> work at the >>>>>>>>>> same time without it becoming unworkable slow. Since >>>>>>>>>> serverside caching >>>>>>>>>> works, the next logical step to boost performance would be >>>>>>>>>> using tiles >>>>>>>>>> like google. >>>>>>>>>> But.. >>>>>>>>>> From what I know, tiling breaks OGC compatibility, right? >>>>>>>>>> We're using Mapbuilder as client and we prefer to keep using >>>>>>>>>> it, since >>>>>>>>>> it's turning into a rather featureful client on the EduGIS >>>>>>>>>> site. But the >>>>>>>>>> question arises how to implement tiling inside >>>>>>>>>> WMC/OWS-context without >>>>>>>>>> breaking OGC too much. >>>>>>>>>> Also I'm interested in the used algorithms to get tiling >>>>>>>>>> working. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> Steven >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- - >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: >>>>>>>>>> webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --To unsubscribe, e-mail: >>>>>>>>> webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: >>>>>>>>> webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: >>>>>>>> webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>>>>> |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >>>>>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>>>>> |Applications & Software Development | >>>>>>> |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| >>>>>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --Cameron Shorter >>>>>> http://cameron.shorter.net >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>> >>>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>>> |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >>>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>>> |Applications & Software Development | >>>>> |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| >>>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>> >>>> >>>> --Cameron Shorter >>>> http://cameron.shorter.net >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>> >>> >>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>> |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>> |Applications & Software Development | >>> |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| >>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> > > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > |Applications & Software Development | > |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > From woodbri at swoodbridge.com Thu Apr 27 10:22:53 2006 From: woodbri at swoodbridge.com (Stephen Woodbridge) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <4450CE79.6020104@geodan.nl> References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> <443E273A.4000108@gmail.com> <69F91861-9B5C-4B73-A357-06119FAB4103@dmsolutions.ca> <443F181C.3080702@gmail.com> <2EBD9CE4-7A05-4B84-B9DD-B47D9B6256A9@dmsolutions.ca> <445081A8.1030105@geodan.nl> <93D60DCB-5FEB-4D95-9632-3E71C99F4DE4@dmsolutions.ca> <4450CE79.6020104@geodan.nl> Message-ID: <4450D3BD.6080707@swoodbridge.com> Steven M. Ottens wrote: > Paul Spencer wrote: > >>Steven >> >>there are a couple of very good reasons for this (in my opinion). The >>approach you suggest is actually the first one I tried because I was >>focussing on the client side code at the time. It became obvious that >>it would not actually work in a real world situation because: >> >>1) every request to mapserv starts the CGI, loads the map, renders the >>map and returns it. This takes a substantial amount of time, even if >>your map file and data are highly optimized. For instance, my test >>cases would take about 1-2 seconds per tile, with a HUGE load on the >>server. > > The idea is to get serverside cache, we have caching working on > mapserver.cgi requests, which means it can can deliver lots and lots of > tiles in a second. The reason I'm developing tiling is because our > current setup can only handle 20 concurrent users and we need 300. If we > can server from cache we can do that, and tiling is a way to make sure > identical images are served to users and as such can be served from cache. > Also in your situation you need to run a tile.php, a mapserver.cgi and a > gd (why btw?) image process. If you multiply this 300 times it's also > quite a load on the server. I prefer to keep as much load on the client > side as possible. Steven, You mentioned that you can use apache to handle caching of mapserver CGI, so this could also be done for tile.php. Also I would consider, you mod_rewrite to convert the tile.php request into a direct file hit first and only if the file does not exist, then call tile.php to generate. This would significantly improve performance. There are also tools with ka-map to pre generate all the tiles into the tile cache. -Steve W From steven.ottens at geodan.nl Thu Apr 27 14:08:27 2006 From: steven.ottens at geodan.nl (Steven M. Ottens) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <4450D3BD.6080707@swoodbridge.com> References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> <443E273A.4000108@gmail.com> <69F91861-9B5C-4B73-A357-06119FAB4103@dmsolutions.ca> <443F181C.3080702@gmail.com> <2EBD9CE4-7A05-4B84-B9DD-B47D9B6256A9@dmsolutions.ca> <445081A8.1030105@geodan.nl> <93D60DCB-5FEB-4D95-9632-3E71C99F4DE4@dmsolutions.ca> <4450CE79.6020104@geodan.nl> <4450D3BD.6080707@swoodbridge.com> Message-ID: <1146161307.18213.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-04-27 at 10:22 -0400, Stephen Woodbridge wrote: > Steven M. Ottens wrote: > > Paul Spencer wrote: > > > >>Steven > >> > >>there are a couple of very good reasons for this (in my opinion). The > >>approach you suggest is actually the first one I tried because I was > >>focussing on the client side code at the time. It became obvious that > >>it would not actually work in a real world situation because: > >> > >>1) every request to mapserv starts the CGI, loads the map, renders the > >>map and returns it. This takes a substantial amount of time, even if > >>your map file and data are highly optimized. For instance, my test > >>cases would take about 1-2 seconds per tile, with a HUGE load on the > >>server. > > > > The idea is to get serverside cache, we have caching working on > > mapserver.cgi requests, which means it can can deliver lots and lots of > > tiles in a second. The reason I'm developing tiling is because our > > current setup can only handle 20 concurrent users and we need 300. If we > > can server from cache we can do that, and tiling is a way to make sure > > identical images are served to users and as such can be served from cache. > > Also in your situation you need to run a tile.php, a mapserver.cgi and a > > gd (why btw?) image process. If you multiply this 300 times it's also > > quite a load on the server. I prefer to keep as much load on the client > > side as possible. > > Steven, > > You mentioned that you can use apache to handle caching of mapserver > CGI, so this could also be done for tile.php. That's true. Probably we can use the same techniques as we used to cache mapserver to cache tile.php. The problem I have from a more architectical point of view is that I don't want to add functionality to mapbuilder that requires a serverside script and especially ties it to one particular WMS server, if I can avoid it. Ka-map is very nice client, but it's very much dependant on umn mapserver. Mapbuilder has been a 'free' client with strong ogc compliance and I like to keep it that way. Tiling is/will be a much requested feature and as such I'm hoping for a solution which keeps mapbuilder users the freedom to choose wms servers. > > Also I would consider, you mod_rewrite to convert the tile.php request > into a direct file hit first and only if the file does not exist, then > call tile.php to generate. This would significantly improve performance. > There are also tools with ka-map to pre generate all the tiles into the > tile cache. That is indeed an interesting option. Would that work also with cached mapserver requests, like we have now? On the pregeneration part: we have right now about 30 maps which could/should be tiled and in the future that amount will increase. I haven't done the math yet, but it probably means a lot of diskspace and a lot of CPUtime. And especially the last part is a problem. Some people here also suggest to pretile everything, but I'm not sure it is feasible/desirable for all the data we have. In my opinion the cache system should cache the common tiles and if needed mapserver can generate more tiles. If mapserver only need to serve those few which are not cached it can keep up with the 300 users I guess. Steven > > -Steve W > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > From dblasby at openplans.org Thu Apr 27 15:28:29 2006 From: dblasby at openplans.org (dblasby@openplans.org) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling Message-ID: <1146166109.44511b5d07656@webmail.limegroup.com> I've been thinking of tiling rendering for WMS in general, and geoserver in particular (especially with OpenLayers apparently coming out soon and mapbuilder also adding similar functionality). Paul gave a good account of the problems that I've been thinking about: a) Edge Rendering Effects b) cache HTTP headers c) Get capabilities (ie. tell clients about how to make requests -- hopefully OGC will define this) d) Labeling I think a-c are actually fairly easy to handle with a "dumb" proxy WMS. Take a quick look at the two images I attached. a) Edge Rendering Effects This can be handled simply by intercepting an incoming WMS request, expanding the request bounding box and image size and sending the request down to the actual WMS server. The image returned is then "cookie cut" so its the proper size/extent of the original request. You'd have to tune the expansion size, but generally you'll want it to be a few pixels wider than your "widest style." For example, if your roads are 12 pixels wide you'd want to expand the image by about 14 pixels in all directions (extra pixels are to account for anti-aliasing). b) cache HTTP headers Geoserver allows you to set the cache expire headers, but you can also have the WMS proxy mangle header for servers that dont allow this. c) Get capabilities At some time in the future, the WMS 'get capabilities' document will contain the grid information the server wants the client to use for tiling. Once this is defined, the proxy WMS can augment the real server's get capabilities so that clients make "proper" requests. Unfortunately, I dont see a good solution to labeling issues (except making requests for very large images) - anyone have any ideas? dave ---------------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: https://webmail.limegroup.com/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: parts.gif Type: image/gif Size: 3754 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/mail_webmap-discuss/attachments/20060427/d604480e/parts.gif From pspencer at dmsolutions.ca Thu Apr 27 16:08:56 2006 From: pspencer at dmsolutions.ca (Paul Spencer) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <4450CE79.6020104@geodan.nl> References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> <443E273A.4000108@gmail.com> <69F91861-9B5C-4B73-A357-06119FAB4103@dmsolutions.ca> <443F181C.3080702@gmail.com> <2EBD9CE4-7A05-4B84-B9DD-B47D9B6256A9@dmsolutions.ca> <445081A8.1030105@geodan.nl> <93D60DCB-5FEB-4D95-9632-3E71C99F4DE4@dmsolutions.ca> <4450CE79.6020104@geodan.nl> Message-ID: <306AB7D4-57FC-4196-A912-89215B0C7C69@dmsolutions.ca> Steven, (sorry folks, this is getting longer and longer) On 27-Apr-06, at 10:00 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: > Paul Spencer wrote: >> Steven >> >> there are a couple of very good reasons for this (in my opinion). >> The >> approach you suggest is actually the first one I tried because I was >> focussing on the client side code at the time. It became obvious >> that >> it would not actually work in a real world situation because: >> >> 1) every request to mapserv starts the CGI, loads the map, renders >> the >> map and returns it. This takes a substantial amount of time, even if >> your map file and data are highly optimized. For instance, my test >> cases would take about 1-2 seconds per tile, with a HUGE load on the >> server. > The idea is to get serverside cache, we have caching working on > mapserver.cgi requests, which means it can can deliver lots and > lots of > tiles in a second. The reason I'm developing tiling is because our > current setup can only handle 20 concurrent users and we need 300. > If we > can server from cache we can do that, and tiling is a way to make sure > identical images are served to users and as such can be served from > cache. > Also in your situation you need to run a tile.php, a mapserver.cgi > and a > gd (why btw?) image process. If you multiply this 300 times it's also > quite a load on the server. I prefer to keep as much load on the > client > side as possible. how are you doing the serverside cache on mapserv requests? In the ka-Map case, tile.php only loads mapscript and gd if the tile has not been previously generated. Tiles are genereated the first time they are requested and subsequently stored on disk and returned directly by tile.php if they already exists GD is required because we generate 'metatiles', typically 25-36 tiles constituting a large map image (1000-2000 pixels square), in a single map draw and slice it up into smaller tiles using GD after. The large map draw minimizes the number of times we need to actually load mapscript and render data, and also minimizes the effect of the label/ symbol/rendering issues. >> >> 2) every request to mapserv is treated as a single map draw. This >> means that all label locations are calculated for that tile only. In >> many cases, labels are too big to fit on a single tile. In others, >> you have a label that fills the tile and because the feature extends >> across multiple tiles, you may get the identical label repeated next >> to each other many times. > that is a problem indeed :( But if you keep a reasonable tile size > it's > not too disturbing. ka-Map uses a tile size of 200x200 in its default, but I have started switching to 300x300. In either case, the tile size minimizes the number of actual images that are loaded (which impacts browser performance when dragging the map) while keeping the download size reasonable for each tile and providing a buffer of tiles 'offscreen' so that users should rarely see empty tiles menu panning. -- By comparison, google uses 256x256 (they used 128x128 for a while then changed) >> >> 3) mapserv has rendering issues that are difficult to detect when >> rendering a single image, but when you render tiles, they become very >> obvious. The worst is thick lines rendered with a 'circle' symbol, >> the ends of the line (at the map draw boundary) are tailed off ... >> when two tiles come together, there is a very noticeable 'shearing' >> effect on the lines which looks very bad. > bad, bad, mapserver ;) I noticed the glitches after careful > inspection. > So either our data is not sensitive to this error or you have > better eyes ;) It is most noticeable when rendering thick lines 10+ pixels wide. I had never noticed it before I started doing the tiling. When I first saw it, I actually though the that tiles were mis-aligned by a few pixels :) I spent quite a bit of time playing with my code before I figured out I was right and mapserver was wrong ... >> >> 4) it is not possible to modify the headers returned from the cgi, >> which means that you get the default browser caching behaviour. In >> many cases, tiles can be cached for a long time, and in some specific >> cases you want no caching at all. > You can modify headers with apache, we set expiry dates for all of our > mapimages. In our case the data is not very dynamic so a expiry > date of > a day or even a week is fine. ok >> >> 5) I wanted to have some way of providing the capability to switch >> between maps. This requires some knowledge of what maps are >> available >> on the server. There is no way to do this with the CGI > That's not a real tiling issue, is it? In mapbuilder you can create a > list of available layers based on the getCapabilitiesDoc. I use > that to > provide alternative layers. I didn't want ka-Map to be tied to ogc since not that many folks outside our community care about ogc. >> >> 6) in ka-Map (as with Google), you are restricted to a specific >> set of >> scales for viewing the map. This is not strictly necessary if you >> are >> not caching the tiles, but in the case of cached tiles it does become >> very important. Cartographically, this means you can build your map >> file for very specific scale breaks and ensure that the map looks >> exactly right at each of the scales. Using just the cgi, it would be >> impossible to determine the intended scale breaks for a given map. > The getCapabilitiesDoc provides minimum and maximum scales so they can > be used to determine the scale levels. Alternatively you will need to > configure these scale levels in the configuration file. I do see an > issue here, but I don't think it's a real showstopper. agreed that its not a show stopper >> >> On a related note, however, if you wanted to try this anyway there is >> a wmsLayer type in kaMap that can be used to create layers based on >> remote WMS sources on the fly. It would be a useful exercise to >> remove the server-side dependency in ka-Map's initialization step and >> only trigger it on demand so that an 'empty' map could be created to >> which you could add some number of wms layers. This would be a very >> good fit as it would remove the server-side dependency and, as >> MapBuilder is already very ogc-aware, it would be easy to integrate. > The empty map is the one with the aPixel.src which I find every now > and > then in the ka-map code? I'm still trying to understand kamaps > approach > to building the tiles. Do you mean that you create a empty 'grid' of > tiles, where you attach the layers on? ka-Map has several objects that participate in this ... kaMap - this is a mixture of several different concepts (and probably needs to be refactored), but essentially it manages the user interface by creating a DIV inside the user-specified element that contains spatially positioned elements - in this case other DIVs. The spatially positioned elements are absolutely positioned inside their containing DIVs in a deterministic way (spatial location * geographicUnitsPerPixel). The top/left style of the container is changed to 'move' the contained elements. The logic for determining if new tiles need to be loaded is also in here. kaTool - base class for kaNavigator and other tools that provide user controls such as dragging the map. These classes intercept events from the user and programmatically adjust the top/left of the container to move the tiles (for instance) _map - encapsulates the concept of a map that contains layers. It maintains information specific to a map such as the layers, the current extents, default extents, maximum extents, background color etc. _layer - encapsulates the concept of a layer, including name, visibility, opacity etc. _layer is actually used to set the src of each image that it contains, allowing for new _layer classes to request tiles in different ways - I used this to implement a wms layer that translates the pixel location of each tile into a wms request rather than a call to tile.php. By default, when you initialize ka-Map, it executes an ajax request to init.php which reads config.php and returns javascript objects for each _map and _layer and triggers the initial _map selection (either the default from the config.php or the one requested by the user calling the initialize function. This process could easily be deferred, allowing the application to build its own _map instance in the client from a context document. This is what I meant by 'empty map' - poorly worded, sorry. If we removed the requirement for calling init.php then you would have no server-side dependency at all. -- I just checked how it works and calling initialize is actually not done in the constructor for kaMap so it should be possible to do this already. I've attached an html file which uses kaMap to render a wms layer with no server side interaction at all. You will need to update kaMap to the latest cvs version because wmsLayer was slightly out of date with a change I made to the _layer constructor. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/mail_webmap-discuss/attachments/20060427/474d20a9/mbtest.html -------------- next part -------------- >> >> I may be willing to invest some effort in getting this to work at >> some >> point, especially if there is some interest/cooperation from the >> MapBuilder community (which has already been offered btw, thanks Mike >> and Cameron) > I am the one from the mapbuilder community who is working on tiling ;) > We (the mb community) are interested in tiling, be it Ka-map style, > openlayers-style or our own implementation. I prefer cooperation with > other webmapping projects, instead of our own implementation. > > I was brainstorming with Cameron on this topic and I can up with an > alternative approach to tiling. Based on your concerns on the edges > and > the labels (also the performance, but that can be solved by serverside > caching): Why not extend the WMS standard with a &tile=true parameter. > It will be one request, but mapserver will create 'absolute' tiles and > set a set of tiles back. > This requires modification on both the WMS server and the WMS > client and > as such not easily done, but I think it's in the long run a better > solution. Meanwhile I'll continue on a pure clientside tiling > mechanism. > We will probably discuss it at the mapbuilder meeting of next week. > Anyone interested in this topic is free to join. I believe that a tiling extension to the spec is in the works? Until WMS servers catch up, I'll stick with what we've got :) Cheers Paul > > Steven > >> >> Cheers >> >> Paul >> >> On 27-Apr-06, at 4:32 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: >> >>> Hi Paul, >>> >>> Why did you choose to use a php script to handle tiling? It makes it >>> much harder for ka-map to become a general webmapping client, >>> currently >>> it is strongly tied to mapserver. Also for me it's more difficult to >>> integrate it with mapbuilder, if I want to keep mapbuilder general. >>> Why not integrate the routine in the clientside and request tiles >>> like this: >>> http://www.edugis.nl/cgi-bin/edugis/mapserv.cgi?map=maps/edugis/ >>> base.map&VERSION=1.1.0&REQUEST=GetMap&LAYERS=topografie&STYLES=defau >>> lt&SRS=EPSG: >>> 4326&BBOX=4.833984375,52.26815737376817,4.921875,52.32191088594773&W >>> IDTH=256&HEIGHT=256&FORMAT=image/ >>> png&TRANSPARENT=TRUE&EXCEPTIONS=INIMAGE >>> >>> (this is a request from a gmap-based application) >>> The important part, obviously, to make sure that the tiles have >>> the same >>> size (easy) and the same coordinates regardless of the client. >>> >>> >>> grt, >>> Steven >>> >>> >>> >>> Paul Spencer wrote: >>>> Ok. I'm not sure if the URLs to the tiles are standard. The >>>> URL goes >>>> to a tile.php script which converts special pixel coordinates into >>>> geographic coordinates. The math for the conversion is very simple >>>> though, all you need to know is the size of a pixel in geographic >>>> coordinates. >>>> >>>> I'll need to look into mapbuilders controls to understand how to do >>>> the integration. Perhaps this could be the start of a common >>>> API? ;) >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> On 13-Apr-06, at 11:33 PM, Cameron Shorter wrote: >>>> >>>>> The "standard URL" I was refering to is the URL of a tile. >>>>> >>>>> Both ka-map and mapbuilder have both implemented much of the same >>>>> functionality. We will need to work out a logical place to split >>>>> between the ka-map code and the mapbuilder code. >>>>> >>>>> I think it would be difficult to use Mapbuilder without Mapbuilder >>>>> controls. Probably what we would need to do is convert your ka- >>>>> map >>>>> tools to fit within the Mapbuilder framework. >>>>> >>>>> Paul Spencer wrote: >>>>>> Cameron, >>>>>> what do you mean by standard url? ka-Map has a javascript API >>>>>> that >>>>>> handles all the navigation including the smooth panning of the >>>>>> map. While not exactly like google, the api is roughly >>>>>> equivalent. >>>>>> Not sure if you could use mapbuilder's controls or not, it >>>>>> would be >>>>>> cool if you could. >>>>>> I'll take a stab at installing/running MapBuilder this >>>>>> weekend. Do >>>>>> I need to do anything special to use the Google Map layer? >>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> Paul >>>>>> On 13-Apr-06, at 6:26 AM, Cameron Shorter wrote: >>>>>>> Paul, >>>>>>> I'm currently allowing a Google Map layer to be included as >>>>>>> one of >>>>>>> the layers rendered by Mapbuilder. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So if you have a standard URL used to call a tiled map server, >>>>>>> then we can create a Mapbuilder Layer which accesses the URL >>>>>>> (we'd probably base our code on your existing ka-maps code). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd expect that we would use the Mapbuilder pan/zoom type tools >>>>>>> and buttons rather than the ka-map tools. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is that what you were thinking about? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Paul Spencer wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What would be really nice would be to have a MapBuilder widget >>>>>>>> for ka- Map ;) Mike Adair has mentioned that this is both >>>>>>>> possible and quite easy to do. Not being very familiar with >>>>>>>> MapBuilder, I can't comment on that. But if it were >>>>>>>> possible to >>>>>>>> do, ka-Map would provide you a tiled interface and you >>>>>>>> could use >>>>>>>> your existing map file to do it without breaking ogc >>>>>>>> compatibility. >>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>> On 12-Apr-06, at 4:33 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Bart, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for the mailinglist tip. >>>>>>>>> It might be possible to rasterize our vector data, but >>>>>>>>> we've got >>>>>>>>> quite >>>>>>>>> some datasets and there will be more of them. It also makes us >>>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>>> flexible. Obviously we've to make a trade-off on flexibility >>>>>>>>> and speed. >>>>>>>>> We hope that with cached tiles we can have both the >>>>>>>>> flexibility >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> speed. If we rasterise it would make sense to rasterise into >>>>>>>>> fixed tiles >>>>>>>>> I guess. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steven >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Bart van den Eijnden wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Steven, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> there is an OGC list to discuss tiling: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.eogeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiling >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> check the archives there. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What you could also do, since I assume your data is pretty >>>>>>>>>> much static, is >>>>>>>>>> use UMN Mapserver to rasterize all your vector data (create >>>>>>>>>> Geotiffs e.g.) >>>>>>>>>> and serve out the rasters instead. I guess the >>>>>>>>>> classifications >>>>>>>>>> used are >>>>>>>>>> heavy on CPU usage, and pre-classified rasters would solve >>>>>>>>>> that part at >>>>>>>>>> least. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>>> Bart >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> For those who don't know: I'm one of the lead developers on >>>>>>>>>>> the EduGIS >>>>>>>>>>> project, a site which aims to introduce highschool students >>>>>>>>>>> to GIS. The >>>>>>>>>>> site contains a webmapping part, which combined with so >>>>>>>>>>> called >>>>>>>>>>> 'lesson-modules' can be used inside the classroom. >>>>>>>>>>> We aim to be able to have at least 200 students access the >>>>>>>>>>> site at one >>>>>>>>>>> time. Since it's being used inside the classroom it means >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> a lot of >>>>>>>>>>> students will do more or less the same thing at the same >>>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>>> (following >>>>>>>>>>> the tasks in the lesson-modules). This causes quite some >>>>>>>>>>> stress on the >>>>>>>>>>> server. Since it's a free site we have limited budget and >>>>>>>>>>> cannot put a >>>>>>>>>>> google-style server park behind it ;( >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Right now we've got apache to serverside cache the umn >>>>>>>>>>> mapserver output. >>>>>>>>>>> This obviously works only for those images that are >>>>>>>>>>> requested >>>>>>>>>>> twice >>>>>>>>>>> (like the first mapimage). Right now about 30 students can >>>>>>>>>>> work at the >>>>>>>>>>> same time without it becoming unworkable slow. Since >>>>>>>>>>> serverside caching >>>>>>>>>>> works, the next logical step to boost performance would be >>>>>>>>>>> using tiles >>>>>>>>>>> like google. >>>>>>>>>>> But.. >>>>>>>>>>> From what I know, tiling breaks OGC compatibility, right? >>>>>>>>>>> We're using Mapbuilder as client and we prefer to keep using >>>>>>>>>>> it, since >>>>>>>>>>> it's turning into a rather featureful client on the EduGIS >>>>>>>>>>> site. But the >>>>>>>>>>> question arises how to implement tiling inside >>>>>>>>>>> WMC/OWS-context without >>>>>>>>>>> breaking OGC too much. >>>>>>>>>>> Also I'm interested in the used algorithms to get tiling >>>>>>>>>>> working. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>> Steven >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>>> ------ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- - >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: >>>>>>>>>>> webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>>>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> ------ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --To unsubscribe, e-mail: >>>>>>>>>> webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: >>>>>>>>>> webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> ------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>>>> unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: >>>>>>>>> webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> +-------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> ---+ >>>>>>>> |Paul Spencer >>>>>>>> pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >>>>>>>> +-------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> ---+ >>>>>>>> |Applications & Software >>>>>>>> Development | >>>>>>>> |DM Solutions Group Inc http:// >>>>>>>> www.dmsolutions.ca/| >>>>>>>> +-------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> ---+ >>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> ------ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>>> unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Cameron Shorter >>>>>>> http://cameron.shorter.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>> unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> +---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> -+ >>>>>> |Paul Spencer >>>>>> pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >>>>>> +---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> -+ >>>>>> |Applications & Software >>>>>> Development | >>>>>> |DM Solutions Group Inc http:// >>>>>> www.dmsolutions.ca/| >>>>>> +---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> -+ >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> ---- >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --Cameron Shorter >>>>> http://cameron.shorter.net >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> --- >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss- >>>>> help@mail.osgeo.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>> |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>> |Applications & Software Development | >>>> |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| >>>> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> -- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >>> >> >> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >> |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | >> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >> |Applications & Software Development | >> |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| >> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Applications & Software Development | |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ From cameron.shorter at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 16:30:11 2006 From: cameron.shorter at gmail.com (Cameron Shorter) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Mapbuilder-devel] RE: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling] Message-ID: <445129D3.2090200@gmail.com> -- Cameron Shorter http://cameron.shorter.net -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Ian Turton" Subject: Re: [Mapbuilder-devel] RE: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:43:04 -0400 Size: 7211 Url: http://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/mail_webmap-discuss/attachments/20060428/3dcbd3b6/webmap-discussOGCandgooglestyletiling.mht From rob at socialchange.net.au Thu Apr 27 18:07:28 2006 From: rob at socialchange.net.au (Rob Atkinson) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <1146166109.44511b5d07656@webmail.limegroup.com> References: <1146166109.44511b5d07656@webmail.limegroup.com> Message-ID: <445140A0.3060301@socialchange.net.au> The issues below are the relatively simple ones compared to the issue I saw previously raised - are you going to constrain the map scales the client is allowed to ask for, and if so: 1) how to advertise the scales available 2) how to get the client to ask for the appropriate scale 3) how to handle intermediate scales Possibly, modern desktop power would allow scaling of images to occur in the desktop, giving advantages of caching at the browser side. There is still going to be a contract between the client code to choose the scales and the server's capabilities, realised through some form of "getCapabilities" response. The same contract would be required for the client to restrict - jump between available scales. The alternative is to have scale-independent server side - i.e. have the cache itself generate tiles for intermediate scales seamlessly. This may be a large server load, quality issues would affect any "intermediate scale" solution, client or server The other issue is whether the tiling strategy is one of partitioning or caching potentially overlapping requests. Gazetteer driven solutions can afford to cache requests (tiled or not) since the users will go to specific areas repeatedly, but eventually a tile based solution would win. The final issue affecting client design is knowing whether a service can be tiled. If a tiling proxy is used in front of all services, this may not be an issue, but you will be bound to a server. If not, you need to handle tiling strategy per layer. Maybe its possible to have this seamlessly - i.e. the client API justs accepts a layer handle and works it out, or maybe this needs to be specified. Some way of choosing the "aggregate behaviour" would be required if certain layers are restricted to scales and you want to restrict the client to these scales Feels like a tractable problem, but it would be nice to see the APIs of the components defined at both server and client side. rob dblasby@openplans.org wrote: >I've been thinking of tiling rendering for WMS in general, and geoserver >in particular (especially with OpenLayers apparently coming out soon >and mapbuilder also adding similar functionality). > >Paul gave a good account of the problems that I've been thinking about: >a) Edge Rendering Effects >b) cache HTTP headers >c) Get capabilities (ie. tell clients about how to make requests -- >hopefully OGC will define this) >d) Labeling > >I think a-c are actually fairly easy to handle with a "dumb" proxy WMS. >Take a quick look at the two images I attached. > >a) Edge Rendering Effects > This can be handled simply by intercepting an incoming WMS >request, expanding the request bounding box and image size and sending >the request down to the actual WMS server. The image returned is then >"cookie cut" so its the proper size/extent of the original request. > > You'd have to tune the expansion size, but generally you'll want it >to be a few pixels wider than your "widest style." For example, if >your roads are 12 pixels wide you'd want to expand the image by about >14 pixels in all directions (extra pixels are to account for >anti-aliasing). > >b) cache HTTP headers > Geoserver allows you to set the cache expire headers, but you can >also have the WMS proxy mangle header for servers that dont allow this. > >c) Get capabilities > At some time in the future, the WMS 'get capabilities' document >will contain the grid information the server wants the client to use >for tiling. Once this is defined, the proxy WMS can augment the real >server's get capabilities so that clients make "proper" requests. > > >Unfortunately, I dont see a good solution to labeling issues (except >making requests for very large images) - anyone have any ideas? > >dave > >---------------------------------------------------------- >This mail sent through IMP: https://webmail.limegroup.com/ > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > From cameron.shorter at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 03:38:33 2006 From: cameron.shorter at gmail.com (Cameron Shorter) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: Meeting to discuss Open Source proposals for OWS4 - in 12 hours In-Reply-To: <444DF1D7.6080508@gmail.com> References: <444DF1D7.6080508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4451C679.6020101@gmail.com> This is a reminder for the meeting below. This meeting is likely to be busy, so I suggest that before the meeting people identify what OWS4 components they are interested in, then suggest items for the agenda. I'll start: Components: We (ADI and Mapbuilder team) would like to extend Mapbuilder to address: * Sensor Web Viewer and Controller * Temporial Queries of a WFS/WMS * Use SOAP Bindings for WFS-T (Required for user authentication) * GML 3.2 Viewer * GeoDRM client Agenda items: * Is anyone (UDig?) addressing OWS Context. (OWS Context is not specified explicity, but the use cases suggest it is needed). * Is anyone addressing SOAP Bindings. Geoserver? Mapserver? DACS? * Is anyone addressing a WCS or Coverage Portrayal Service (WCPS)? * I understand that Roderick from DACS is looking into GeoDRM and I'd like to work out how Mapbuilder can link in with this. (Might require another thread). * There has been talk about tiling. Is anyone planning to address this within the OWS4 framework? * Please add your suggestions for the agenda: Cameron Shorter wrote: > I suggest that the people from the Open Source projects who plan to > participate in the OWS4 project get together in a meeting and nut out a > coordinated response. > > I'm particularly interested in Mapbuilder and would like to ensure that > our proposal dove tails with any Geoserver or Mapserver proposals that > are put in. > > Proposed meeting time: > http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?year=2006&month=4&day=28&hour=20&min=0&sec=0 > > New York: 1600 Fri > Paris: 2200 Fri > Sydney: 0600 Sat > > OWS4 Request for Quotation: > http://www.opengeospatial.org/initiatives/?iid=199 > -- Cameron Shorter http://cameron.shorter.net From steven.ottens at geodan.nl Fri Apr 28 07:04:01 2006 From: steven.ottens at geodan.nl (Steven M. Ottens) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <306AB7D4-57FC-4196-A912-89215B0C7C69@dmsolutions.ca> References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> <443E273A.4000108@gmail.com> <69F91861-9B5C-4B73-A357-06119FAB4103@dmsolutions.ca> <443F181C.3080702@gmail.com> <2EBD9CE4-7A05-4B84-B9DD-B47D9B6256A9@dmsolutions.ca> <445081A8.1030105@geodan.nl> <93D60DCB-5FEB-4D95-9632-3E71C99F4DE4@dmsolutions.ca> <4450CE79.6020104@geodan.nl> <306AB7D4-57FC-4196-A912-89215B0C7C69@dmsolutions.ca> Message-ID: <1146222241.14951.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Paul, On Thu, 2006-04-27 at 16:08 -0400, Paul Spencer wrote: > Steven, > > (sorry folks, this is getting longer and longer) indeed, interesting stuff though IMHO > > how are you doing the serverside cache on mapserv requests? We have mod_cache on apache configured to cache all .cgi requests. It stores the files on disk. The problem is that only the first map image and some of the gazetteer-generated images are used more than once. So starting up the application is fast, but if students start to pan en zoom, all the images are rendered by mapserver in stead of delivered from cache. > > In the ka-Map case, tile.php only loads mapscript and gd if the tile > has not been previously generated. Tiles are genereated the first > time they are requested and subsequently stored on disk and returned > directly by tile.php if they already exists > This is more or less the same as our setup. I am wondering though if using a dedicated cache like mod_cache or squid wouldn't be faster than letting tile.php figure out if it is cached or not. The suggestion by Steve Woodbridge to use mod_rewrite to first search disk than run tile.php is an interesting one in this matter. > GD is required because we generate 'metatiles', typically 25-36 tiles > constituting a large map image (1000-2000 pixels square), in a single > map draw and slice it up into smaller tiles using GD after. The > large map draw minimizes the number of times we need to actually load > mapscript and render data, and also minimizes the effect of the label/ > symbol/rendering issues. Ah of course. From what I've seen so far the tiling issue is not a pure client side issue. The WMS server needs to be enhanced to do exactly what tile.php is doing: split up one request in multiple tiles. > > >> > ka-Map uses a tile size of 200x200 in its default, but I have started > switching to 300x300. In either case, the tile size minimizes the > number of actual images that are loaded (which impacts browser > performance when dragging the map) while keeping the download size > reasonable for each tile and providing a buffer of tiles 'offscreen' > so that users should rarely see empty tiles menu panning. > > -- By comparison, google uses 256x256 (they used 128x128 for a while > then changed) > Just curious: why not use google's tile size? It might make it easier in the future to combine google layers with ka-map layers. > > >> > >> 3) mapserv has rendering issues that are difficult to detect when > >> rendering a single image, but when you render tiles, they become very > >> obvious. The worst is thick lines rendered with a 'circle' symbol, > >> the ends of the line (at the map draw boundary) are tailed off ... > >> when two tiles come together, there is a very noticeable 'shearing' > >> effect on the lines which looks very bad. > > bad, bad, mapserver ;) I noticed the glitches after careful > > inspection. > > So either our data is not sensitive to this error or you have > > better eyes ;) > > It is most noticeable when rendering thick lines 10+ pixels wide. I > had never noticed it before I started doing the tiling. When I first > saw it, I actually though the that tiles were mis-aligned by a few > pixels :) I spent quite a bit of time playing with my code before I > figured out I was right and mapserver was wrong ... > Is the bug in mapserver solvable and is there anyone looking into it. Obviously you and I need a solution right now, and your tile.php is a nice workaround. But in the long run it is a bug in mapserver and if possible should be solved. (but this is a whole other issue probably). If we presume that the rendering bug is fixed on the WMS server used, the above argument is not valid anymore. So we can skip it in a broader point of view. > >> > I didn't want ka-Map to be tied to ogc since not that many folks > outside our community care about ogc. One of the arguments we used to get FOSS in the project was 'better support for standards'. So we're obliged to at least try and stick to the standards. Also we would like the users to be able to add external datasources. But maybe we can solve this by using a special tiling layer for our own data and standard WMS for external data. Thanks for the explanation, that'll help with figuring out how to combine mapbuilder and kamap. > If we removed the requirement for calling init.php then you would > have no server-side dependency at all. > > I just checked how it works and calling initialize is actually not > done in the constructor for kaMap so it should be possible to do this > already. I've attached an html file which uses kaMap to render a wms > layer with no server side interaction at all. You will need to update > kaMap to the latest cvs version because wmsLayer was slightly out of > date with a change I made to the _layer constructor. I'll try it monday at work. > I believe that a tiling extension to the spec is in the works? > Until WMS servers catch up, I'll stick with what we've got :) I can understand that, but your knowledge on tiling is rather extensive and it would make sense if you bug the tiling-spec people every now and then ;) Thanks a lot for the info, Steven From steven.ottens at geodan.nl Fri Apr 28 07:11:44 2006 From: steven.ottens at geodan.nl (Steven M. Ottens) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <1146166109.44511b5d07656@webmail.limegroup.com> References: <1146166109.44511b5d07656@webmail.limegroup.com> Message-ID: <1146222704.14951.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi Dave, In my opinion the edge problem is a bug in mapserver and should be solved in mapserver, not with a workaround. But i'm not too knowledgable on mapserver so I could be mistaken. Anyhow I don't think we should need any post-rendering processing of the mapserver-images. The whole point of tiling is a performance boost. So if every tile needs to be recut after being rendered it'll generate more overhead. I'm believing in a WMS-server solution which creates and cuts tiles like tile.php does now. This should solve the edge *and* labeling issues. Steven On Thu, 2006-04-27 at 15:28 -0400, dblasby@openplans.org wrote: > I've been thinking of tiling rendering for WMS in general, and geoserver > in particular (especially with OpenLayers apparently coming out soon > and mapbuilder also adding similar functionality). > > Paul gave a good account of the problems that I've been thinking about: > a) Edge Rendering Effects > b) cache HTTP headers > c) Get capabilities (ie. tell clients about how to make requests -- > hopefully OGC will define this) > d) Labeling > > I think a-c are actually fairly easy to handle with a "dumb" proxy WMS. > Take a quick look at the two images I attached. > > a) Edge Rendering Effects > This can be handled simply by intercepting an incoming WMS > request, expanding the request bounding box and image size and sending > the request down to the actual WMS server. The image returned is then > "cookie cut" so its the proper size/extent of the original request. > > You'd have to tune the expansion size, but generally you'll want it > to be a few pixels wider than your "widest style." For example, if > your roads are 12 pixels wide you'd want to expand the image by about > 14 pixels in all directions (extra pixels are to account for > anti-aliasing). > > b) cache HTTP headers > Geoserver allows you to set the cache expire headers, but you can > also have the WMS proxy mangle header for servers that dont allow this. > > c) Get capabilities > At some time in the future, the WMS 'get capabilities' document > will contain the grid information the server wants the client to use > for tiling. Once this is defined, the proxy WMS can augment the real > server's get capabilities so that clients make "proper" requests. > > > Unfortunately, I dont see a good solution to labeling issues (except > making requests for very large images) - anyone have any ideas? > > dave > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > This mail sent through IMP: https://webmail.limegroup.com/ > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org From pspencer at dmsolutions.ca Fri Apr 28 07:42:41 2006 From: pspencer at dmsolutions.ca (Paul Spencer) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <1146222704.14951.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1146166109.44511b5d07656@webmail.limegroup.com> <1146222704.14951.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: In tile.php, we use two mapserver tricks to work around this issue: 1) draw an image 10 pixels larger in all dimensions than we really want. The problem with this is that labels, symbols etc can end up in the 10 pixel buffer and get clipped, so we ... 2) apply a buffer around the edge of the map to prevent labels and symbols from showing up in the to-be-clipped area The resulting image can then be tiled. There are really two issues that I would like to see solved in MapServer: 1) producing tiles directly 2) labeling in tiled mode Producing Tiles Directly ... It would be relatively easy to ask mapserver to generate multiple images from a single map draw if you are using mapscript but I don't see a way to do it using the cgi. This means that you really need to request single tiles and then cache them using squid or some other caching layer in the architecture. To generate single tiles, you need to automatically buffer and clip the edges. This could be controlled via metadata in the map file, or perhaps should be the built-in-default-way-of-operating. The extra overhead would be minimal IMO. Labeling in Tiled Mode ... The bigger issue in generating excellent maps is the whole labelling thing. Ultimately, the best map would come from rendering the entire map at each scale as a single image and then slicing it. This is not practical since even a 2000x2000 pixel map really slows mapserver down. In order to do labeling correctly, you need to consider a broader spatial context than that being drawn and deterministically place labels so that you get consistent results without duplication (or with duplicates at pre-determined intervals). Labels would have to be able to cross tile boundaries in such a way that combining adjacent tiles would reconstitute the label. I don't have a really good idea of how this could be done. Perhaps a global, persistent label cache? Or a pre-generated label layer that is processed at particular scales and calculates where each label needs to be drawn. AFAIK there isn't a good solution to this problem :S Google 'seems' to have solved this problem, but in my opinion, they have simply chosen larger meta-tile sizes and have a nearly infinite set of resources to pre-render the tiles at all scales prior to going live. They do not generate the tiles on the fly, and I have noticed some label duplication in some cases. On the subject of performance boost, the boost comes from caching the tiles once they are generated, not from the generation process. IMO, the generation process can be relatively slow. This is especially true if you want to enable antialiased thick lines and 'curved' text that follows streets. The overhead of rendering far outweighs the overhead of cutting tiles. Cheers Paul On 28-Apr-06, at 7:11 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: > Hi Dave, > > In my opinion the edge problem is a bug in mapserver and should be > solved in mapserver, not with a workaround. But i'm not too > knowledgable > on mapserver so I could be mistaken. Anyhow I don't think we should > need > any post-rendering processing of the mapserver-images. The whole point > of tiling is a performance boost. So if every tile needs to be recut > after being rendered it'll generate more overhead. I'm believing in a > WMS-server solution which creates and cuts tiles like tile.php does > now. > This should solve the edge *and* labeling issues. > > Steven > > > On Thu, 2006-04-27 at 15:28 -0400, dblasby@openplans.org wrote: >> I've been thinking of tiling rendering for WMS in general, and >> geoserver >> in particular (especially with OpenLayers apparently coming out soon >> and mapbuilder also adding similar functionality). >> >> Paul gave a good account of the problems that I've been thinking >> about: >> a) Edge Rendering Effects >> b) cache HTTP headers >> c) Get capabilities (ie. tell clients about how to make requests -- >> hopefully OGC will define this) >> d) Labeling >> >> I think a-c are actually fairly easy to handle with a "dumb" proxy >> WMS. >> Take a quick look at the two images I attached. >> >> a) Edge Rendering Effects >> This can be handled simply by intercepting an incoming WMS >> request, expanding the request bounding box and image size and >> sending >> the request down to the actual WMS server. The image returned is >> then >> "cookie cut" so its the proper size/extent of the original request. >> >> You'd have to tune the expansion size, but generally you'll >> want it >> to be a few pixels wider than your "widest style." For example, if >> your roads are 12 pixels wide you'd want to expand the image by about >> 14 pixels in all directions (extra pixels are to account for >> anti-aliasing). > > >> >> b) cache HTTP headers >> Geoserver allows you to set the cache expire headers, but >> you can >> also have the WMS proxy mangle header for servers that dont allow >> this. >> >> c) Get capabilities >> At some time in the future, the WMS 'get capabilities' document >> will contain the grid information the server wants the client to use >> for tiling. Once this is defined, the proxy WMS can augment the real >> server's get capabilities so that clients make "proper" requests. >> >> >> Unfortunately, I dont see a good solution to labeling issues (except >> making requests for very large images) - anyone have any ideas? >> >> dave >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> This mail sent through IMP: https://webmail.limegroup.com/ >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Applications & Software Development | |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ From pspencer at dmsolutions.ca Fri Apr 28 08:02:01 2006 From: pspencer at dmsolutions.ca (Paul Spencer) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] OGC and google style tiling In-Reply-To: <1146222241.14951.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <443CB539.9060409@geodan.nl> <15202.145.50.39.8.1144829916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <443CBB3C.30103@geodan.nl> <443E273A.4000108@gmail.com> <69F91861-9B5C-4B73-A357-06119FAB4103@dmsolutions.ca> <443F181C.3080702@gmail.com> <2EBD9CE4-7A05-4B84-B9DD-B47D9B6256A9@dmsolutions.ca> <445081A8.1030105@geodan.nl> <93D60DCB-5FEB-4D95-9632-3E71C99F4DE4@dmsolutions.ca> <4450CE79.6020104@geodan.nl> <306AB7D4-57FC-4196-A912-89215B0C7C69@dmsolutions.ca> <1146222241.14951.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4EF419AE-5B88-48EF-817F-FACCE24CBEA1@dmsolutions.ca> Steven On 28-Apr-06, at 7:04 AM, Steven M. Ottens wrote: > Paul, > > On Thu, 2006-04-27 at 16:08 -0400, Paul Spencer wrote: >> Steven, >> >> (sorry folks, this is getting longer and longer) > indeed, interesting stuff though IMHO > >> >> how are you doing the serverside cache on mapserv requests? > > We have mod_cache on apache configured to cache all .cgi requests. It > stores the files on disk. The problem is that only the first map image > and some of the gazetteer-generated images are used more than once. So > starting up the application is fast, but if students start to pan en > zoom, all the images are rendered by mapserver in stead of delivered > from cache. ka-Map tries to be server agnostic I guess. In my opinion, it is equivalent to ask a user of ka-Map to configure apache in a special way and to install php. On the other hand, ka-Map should be configurable enough to take advantage of local optimizations if available. >> >> In the ka-Map case, tile.php only loads mapscript and gd if the tile >> has not been previously generated. Tiles are genereated the first >> time they are requested and subsequently stored on disk and returned >> directly by tile.php if they already exists >> > This is more or less the same as our setup. I am wondering though if > using a dedicated cache like mod_cache or squid wouldn't be faster > than > letting tile.php figure out if it is cached or not. The suggestion by > Steve Woodbridge to use mod_rewrite to first search disk than run > tile.php is an interesting one in this matter. Its definitely possible. There is a mode in ka-Map that bypasses tile.php to request the tile directly from the cache. I have toyed with the idea of providing a 404-error-handler (apache directive) that would redirect the request to tile.php to generate the tile. In the normal case of cached tiles (I consider the generation of the tile an event that happens only once so it is the special case), the web server would then handle returning the image with no cgi overhead at all. > >> GD is required because we generate 'metatiles', typically 25-36 tiles >> constituting a large map image (1000-2000 pixels square), in a single >> map draw and slice it up into smaller tiles using GD after. The >> large map draw minimizes the number of times we need to actually load >> mapscript and render data, and also minimizes the effect of the >> label/ >> symbol/rendering issues. > > Ah of course. From what I've seen so far the tiling issue is not a > pure > client side issue. The WMS server needs to be enhanced to do exactly > what tile.php is doing: split up one request in multiple tiles. its a little more complex unless the wmsserver can also do the caching. If there is some other entity (squid?) doing the caching, then we run into the labeling issues discussed in the other email I just sent. >> >>>> > > >> ka-Map uses a tile size of 200x200 in its default, but I have started >> switching to 300x300. In either case, the tile size minimizes the >> number of actual images that are loaded (which impacts browser >> performance when dragging the map) while keeping the download size >> reasonable for each tile and providing a buffer of tiles 'offscreen' >> so that users should rarely see empty tiles menu panning. >> >> -- By comparison, google uses 256x256 (they used 128x128 for a >> while >> then changed) >> > Just curious: why not use google's tile size? It might make it > easier in > the future to combine google layers with ka-map layers. its configurable, you can set it to generate whatever tile size you like. Actually I was thinking about this last night. I am now considering refactoring kaMap's code into the kaMap API and the kaMap tile server. The use of the tile server would then be dependent on the type of layer that you create, allowing for the use of any tiling service. Tile size could be controlled at the layer level ... there is nothing in the code that requires a global tile size other than the tile size is currently global, IIRC. My idea for a tile server is that it can respond to a getcapabilities request that includes the tile size that it is willing to produce as well as the details necessary to construct layer objects that can request the tiles. >> >>>> >>>> 3) mapserv has rendering issues that are difficult to detect when >>>> rendering a single image, but when you render tiles, they become >>>> very >>>> obvious. The worst is thick lines rendered with a 'circle' symbol, >>>> the ends of the line (at the map draw boundary) are tailed off ... >>>> when two tiles come together, there is a very noticeable 'shearing' >>>> effect on the lines which looks very bad. >>> bad, bad, mapserver ;) I noticed the glitches after careful >>> inspection. >>> So either our data is not sensitive to this error or you have >>> better eyes ;) >> >> It is most noticeable when rendering thick lines 10+ pixels wide. I >> had never noticed it before I started doing the tiling. When I first >> saw it, I actually though the that tiles were mis-aligned by a few >> pixels :) I spent quite a bit of time playing with my code before I >> figured out I was right and mapserver was wrong ... >> > Is the bug in mapserver solvable and is there anyone looking into it. > Obviously you and I need a solution right now, and your tile.php is a > nice workaround. But in the long run it is a bug in mapserver and if > possible should be solved. (but this is a whole other issue probably). > If we presume that the rendering bug is fixed on the WMS server used, > the above argument is not valid anymore. So we can skip it in a > broader > point of view. agreed. >>>> > > >> I didn't want ka-Map to be tied to ogc since not that many folks >> outside our community care about ogc. > > One of the arguments we used to get FOSS in the project was 'better > support for standards'. So we're obliged to at least try and stick to > the standards. Also we would like the users to be able to add external > datasources. But maybe we can solve this by using a special tiling > layer > for our own data and standard WMS for external data. If kaMap was refactored, you would be able to add layers from multiple sources very easily. > > > > > Thanks for the explanation, that'll help with figuring out how to > combine mapbuilder and kamap. > >> If we removed the requirement for calling init.php then you would >> have no server-side dependency at all. >> >> I just checked how it works and calling initialize is actually not >> done in the constructor for kaMap so it should be possible to do this >> already. I've attached an html file which uses kaMap to render a wms >> layer with no server side interaction at all. You will need to >> update >> kaMap to the latest cvs version because wmsLayer was slightly >> out of >> date with a change I made to the _layer constructor. > > > I'll try it monday at work. > > >> I believe that a tiling extension to the spec is in the works? >> Until WMS servers catch up, I'll stick with what we've got :) > > I can understand that, but your knowledge on tiling is rather > extensive > and it would make sense if you bug the tiling-spec people every now > and > then ;) :) > > Thanks a lot for the info, > > Steven > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Paul Spencer pspencer@dmsolutions.ca | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ |Applications & Software Development | |DM Solutions Group Inc http://www.dmsolutions.ca/| +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ From pat at cappelaere.com Fri Apr 28 16:01:13 2006 From: pat at cappelaere.com (Pat Cappelaere) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: [webmap-discuss] Re: Meeting to discuss Open Source proposals for OWS4 - in 12 hours In-Reply-To: <4451C679.6020101@gmail.com> Message-ID: Where is that meeeting? #MapBuilder? Pat. > From: Cameron Shorter > Reply-To: > Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:38:33 +1000 > To: Cameron Shorter > Cc: Chris Holmes , Brent Owens , > Jody Garnett , Andrea Aime > , "Adair, Mike" , > Patrice Cappelaere , Steven Ottens , > Paul Spencer , Schuyler Erle , > Roderick Morrison , Simone Giannecchini > , Kevin , > > Subject: [webmap-discuss] Re: Meeting to discuss Open Source proposals for > OWS4 - in 12 hours > > This is a reminder for the meeting below. > > This meeting is likely to be busy, so I suggest that before the meeting > people identify what OWS4 components they are interested in, then > suggest items for the agenda. > > I'll start: > Components: > We (ADI and Mapbuilder team) would like to extend Mapbuilder to address: > * Sensor Web Viewer and Controller > * Temporial Queries of a WFS/WMS > * Use SOAP Bindings for WFS-T (Required for user authentication) > * GML 3.2 Viewer > * GeoDRM client > > Agenda items: > * Is anyone (UDig?) addressing OWS Context. (OWS Context is not > specified explicity, but the use cases suggest it is needed). > > * Is anyone addressing SOAP Bindings. Geoserver? Mapserver? DACS? > > * Is anyone addressing a WCS or Coverage Portrayal Service (WCPS)? > > * I understand that Roderick from DACS is looking into GeoDRM and I'd > like to work out how Mapbuilder can link in with this. (Might require > another thread). > > * There has been talk about tiling. Is anyone planning to address this > within the OWS4 framework? > > * Please add your suggestions for the agenda: > > > Cameron Shorter wrote: >> I suggest that the people from the Open Source projects who plan to >> participate in the OWS4 project get together in a meeting and nut out a >> coordinated response. >> >> I'm particularly interested in Mapbuilder and would like to ensure that >> our proposal dove tails with any Geoserver or Mapserver proposals that >> are put in. >> >> Proposed meeting time: >> http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?year=2006&month=4&day=28&hou >> r=20&min=0&sec=0 >> >> New York: 1600 Fri >> Paris: 2200 Fri >> Sydney: 0600 Sat >> >> OWS4 Request for Quotation: >> http://www.opengeospatial.org/initiatives/?iid=199 >> > > > -- > Cameron Shorter > http://cameron.shorter.net > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: webmap-discuss-unsubscribe@mail.osgeo.org > For additional commands, e-mail: webmap-discuss-help@mail.osgeo.org > From cameron.shorter at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 21:01:45 2006 From: cameron.shorter at gmail.com (Cameron Shorter) Date: Fri Dec 22 15:49:41 2006 Subject: Unzip in AJAX Message-ID: <8fd6e5470604301801p774e082fi64555d2898733d37@mail.gmail.com> OWS4 is calling for zip/unzip of GML which I'd like to incorporate into Mapbuilder. Does anyone know of a Javascript Unzip library? -- Cameron Shorter http://cameron.shorter.net