[mapguide-users] RE: Oracle Spatial v/s Oracle Locator with MapGuide FDO

Simon Greener sgreener at netspace.net.au
Thu Aug 31 17:07:32 EDT 2006 

Andy's point is dead on the money.

We gave up with the MapGuide Enterprise Oracle Spatial provider AND
I had even hacked about trying to do a bit of good old fashioned
reverse-engineering myself! (Didn't know it was even possible.)

Now we have finally gotten a compile of FDO 3.1 to work (on Windoze)
and are aiming it at some WFS servers out there on the web. It seems
to be working quite well (I will check with the programmer tomorrow).
(We had similar issues about "enumerations" as well.) Until someone
sorts out this side of FDO (I put my money on Haris) we can't afford
the non-billable time.

regards
S
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:57:40 +0100, Andy Morsell <amorsell at spatialgis.com>  
wrote:

> I'll jump into the fray as well here.  I have some Oracle Spatial data  
> for a
> client that was not created by Autodesk products so lacks the foreign  
> schema
> and datastore definitions.  This works fine with the MapGuide 6.5 Oracle
> Spatial provider, but I have had no luck with MapGuide Enterprise (and  
> Map
> 3D 2007 for that matter).  If I use the Autodesk Oracle Spatial FDO
> provider, it recognizes the schema and tests OK, but setup in Studio is
> painfully slow due to some enumeration queries that it runs.  This is  
> inline
> with Joel's experiences.
>
>  If I then try to create a layer in Studio from a table with SDO  
> geometry, I
> can choose the data resource, and then after waiting literally 5 minutes,
> can choose the table (Feature class in Studio) and the geometry field
> (Geometry in Studio).  If I try to preview this layer, or create a layer
> from it, nothing is displayed.  This is where the experimentation  
> stopped -
> it's not worth playing with anymore until a client calls for it.  Also
> notable is that I really wanted to display data from an Oracle view, and
> those did not show up in the drop-down list in Studio and there is no  
> way to
> manually edit it so I do hope this is fixed in the service pack so we  
> don't
> have to manually edit the config later.
>
> I also tried the OGR FDO provider and actually had better luck, but it  
> was
> not displaying all of my data.  So, I don't know what is going on there  
> and
> have not had time to research it further.
>
> Talking with other developers, it sounds like they too have only had luck
> using Autodesk Map created Oracle Spatial with MapGuide Enterprise.
>
> Autodesk, is there any documentation, white papers, tech docs, ANYTHING  
> out
> there on using foreign Oracle Spatial schemas with Map 3D 2007 and  
> MapGuide
> Enterprise?  Or, should we just wait until the service packs and FDO
> providers are updated?
>
> Here's something I wrote to a friend last night to reflect my  
> frustration on
> this: "I'm starting to get disenchanted with spending SO much  
> non-billable
> time on these brand new technologies when, as a consultant, I should be
> recommending solutions that are proven and work.  How the heck are the  
> users
> supposed to get these solutions to work when the
> developer/programmer/consultant (i.e. me) can't even get it to work?   
> Argh."
>
>
>
> Andy Morsell, P.E.
> Spatial Integrators, Inc.
> http://www.SpatialGIS.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Carranza [mailto:jec at gatekeeper.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 12:56 PM
> To: users at mapguide.osgeo.org
> Subject: SPAM-LOW: [mapguide-users] RE: Oracle Spatial v/s Oracle Locator
> with MapGuide FDO
>
>
> Robert,
>
> "It has some restriction if they are not present but the data should be
> readable in MapGuide through the provider."
>
> What are the restrictions?
>
> Our use case resembles the following: Oracle 10g (Locator) with indexed
> spatial data loaded with internal tools, i.e. No F_* metadata tables, but
> all data appropriately loaded into SDO_GEOM_METADATA. The exact same  
> schema
> we are using to serve out MapGuide 6.5 data.
>
> Results: terrible performance. I suspect it is related to these problems
> regarding metadata. See my post here about my attempt to discover problem
> http://discussion.autodesk.com/thread.jspa?threadID=486000
>
> Now, if I were to reload this informating using Map, would everything  
> "just
> work" ?
>
> Joel
>
>
> Robert Fortin wrote:
>>
>> The Oracle provider doesn't require the F_* tables to work with
>> MapGuide.  It has some restriction if they are not present but the
>> data should be readable in MapGuide through the provider.  The F_* are
>> used to store the FDO metadata.  If these tables are not present, the
>> FDO schema will be generated by reverse engineering the Oracle table
>> definitions.
>>
>> If you have some use case that doesn't work, we certainly would like
>> to know about it.
>>
>> RF
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joel Carranza [mailto:jec at gatekeeper.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 3:20 PM
>> To: users at mapguide.osgeo.org
>> Subject: Re: [mapguide-users] Oracle Spatial v/s Oracle Locator with
>> MapGuide FDO
>>
>>
>> Simon,
>>
>> I wonder if you could follow up a little bit on your statement:
>>
>> "Oracle provider ... require(s) the F_* Autodesk catalog tables (which
>> the AutoDesk provider shipped with their per pay version...)"
>>
>> I was not aware of this. It would explain alot about why we can't get
>> anything to work. Is this an explicit fact or simply an impression you
>> got after trying to get things to work? Can you point me to some
>> documentation?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Joel
>>
>>
>> Simon Greener wrote:
>>>
>>> Paul is right, PostGIS is neither crippled or slow and his news that
>>> a
>>
>>> native FDO provider is just around the corner is great news for
>>> everyone.
>>>
>>> On the Oracle front, Locator is all you need for use with MapGuide.
>>> Haris Kurtagic an AutoDesk Partner in Bosnia is writing a native
>>> Oracle provider that does not require the F_* Autodesk catalog tables
>>> (which the AutoDesk provider shipped with their per pay version
>>> requires and which can only be created via AutoDesk client side tools
>>> - part of the reason, I suspect, why they are not shipped with the
>>> open source
>>> version) as I write. I have seen Haris's work on integrating Autodesk
>>> Map 3D and Oracle's Topology (an Enterprise Edition feature) was
>>> excellent so I suspect his native FDO provider will be good. He is
>>> not
>>
>>> sure about how to market it.
>>> I have suggested that he make it open source and he is thinking about
>> it:
>>> I think that
>>> there is more money in providing solutions to customers than writing
>>> drivers!
>>>
>>> If you need more "in database" functionality with Oracle Locator then
>>> as long as you are not using XE you can drop Java functions based on
>>> JTS into the database and call them  from PL/SQL. But that is quite a
>>> bit of engineering when it is all there in PostreSQL/PostGIS.
>>>
>>> regards
>>> S
>>> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 03:48:16 +0100, Paul Ramsey
>>> <pramsey at refractions.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you wait a few months, you'll be able to use MapGuide OS with
>>>> PostGIS, which unlike Locator is neither hobbled nor slow.  The City
>>>> of Nanaimo has contracted us to build a PostGIS FDO provider. The
>>>> work is ongoing as I type. We anticipate delivery in the early fall.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> On 30-Aug-06, at 7:33 PM, Srikanth Nadhamuni wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Folks,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We are trying to decide which database to use to store our spatial
>>>>> as well as attribute data in conjunction with MapGuide server. We
>>>>> found that Oracle 10g comes bundled with 'Oracle Locator' which
>>>>> seems to be a stripped down version of 'Oracle Spatial' which is a
>>>>> priced add-on to Oracle 10g. A comparison between Oracle Locator
>>>>> and
>>
>>>>> Oracle Spatial follows from a blog posting.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Can we simply use Oracle 10g with Locator (the bundled product) to
>>>>> store both spatial and attribute information and connect through
>>>>> MapGuide's Oracle FDO ? or do we need to buy Oracle Spatial to do
>>>>> the same.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -Srikanth Nadhamuni
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Comparison of the Oracle Spatial and Locator Features
>>>>>
>>>>> Bloged in General, Oracle, MapViewer / GIS by Topper Thursday May
>>>>> 11, 2006
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a quick analysis I wrote up for a customer, but I figured
>>>>> other people would get a benefit out of it as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Oracle database engine has an extremely robust feature set that
>>>>> allows for the analyis of GIS data within the database. Within the
>>>>> Oracle suite there are two products to perform spatial analysis in
>>>>> the database. One is called Oracle Locator, while the other is
>>>>> called Oracle Spatial. Oracle Locator allows for basic GIS analysis.
>>
>>>>> While Oracle Spatial will allow for more advanced analysis,
>>>>> including creating new spatial data and transforming data that
>>>>> already exists. Currently, Oracle Locator is a free component of
>>>>> every database that Oracle sells; this includes OracleXE, Oracle
>>>>> Standard Edition and Oracle Enterprise Edition. Below you will find
>>>>> a list of all the features you can perform with each product and
>>>>> some examples of what can be done with that feature.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oracle Locator
>>>>>
>>>>> Functionality
>>>>>
>>>>> Feature Name
>>>>>
>>>>> Example Use
>>>>>
>>>>> Support for All Spatial Geometry
>>>>>
>>>>> Points, Point Clusters, Lines, Line Strings, Compound Line Strings,
>>>>> Polygons, Polygons with Holes, Compound Polygons, Arc Strings,
>>>>> Circles, Rectangles
>>>>>
>>>>> All the counties in the United States Locations of all corporate
>>>>> sites Locations of all customers All of the roads in the United
>>>>> States
>>>>>
>>>>> Spatial Indexing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> R-Tree indexing to speed up query performance - selecting only the
>>>>> data needed, not an entire layer
>>>>>
>>>>> Spatial Operators
>>>>>
>>>>> SDO_FILTER
>>>>>
>>>>> SDO_RELATE
>>>>>
>>>>> SDO_NN
>>>>>
>>>>> SDO_NN_DISTANCE
>>>>>
>>>>> SDO_WITHIN_DISTANCE
>>>>>
>>>>> SDO_GEOM.SDO_DISTANCE
>>>>>
>>>>> The closest 100 customers to a site All customers that live in a
>>>>> particular building All of the stores in the shopping mall All of
>>>>> the Elvis impersonators inNashville
>>>>>
>>>>> Two Tiered Queries
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Filter the data, first on the geometry elements that satisfy the
>>>>> condition, and then based on the relational facts (i.e. first find
>>>>> all customers within 5 miles, then find the ones that have spent
>>>>> more than $5,000 this year)
>>>>>
>>>>> Open Standards
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Certified with the Open Geospatial Consortium and OpenGIS standards
>>>>> Move away from PostGIS to Oracle Produce a standardized mapping
>>>>> service for customers
>>>>>
>>>>> Long Transaction / Workspace Management
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Create new "What If?" scenarios
>>>>> What if this location moves 5 miles west?
>>>>> What if this location is sold? Where will customers go?
>>>>> What if I combine the Northeast and mid-Atlantic regions?
>>>>> Load new datasets without affecting production queries and switch
>>>>> over seamlessly
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oracle Spatial
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Functionality
>>>>>
>>>>> Feature Name
>>>>>
>>>>> Example Use
>>>>>
>>>>> Length and area based calculations
>>>>>
>>>>> Length / Area
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the average size of site locations?
>>>>> How long is a segment of road?
>>>>> How much area is covered by each sales representative?
>>>>>
>>>>> Generation of new geometries
>>>>>
>>>>> Buffer, Centroid, Convex Hull
>>>>>
>>>>> Geometry Intersection, GeometryUnion
>>>>>
>>>>> Creating regions from current properties Creating 5 mile boundaries
>>>>> around each site to ensure market share
>>>>>
>>>>> Spatial Analytic Functions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Determining what percentage of customers are within 5 miles of
>>>>> locations Determine the most effective place to put a new site,
>>>>> based on current customer data
>>>>>
>>>>> Identify which communities are growing and where to acquire new
>>>>> land
>>
>>>>> for opportunities
>>>>>
>>>>> Find the highest income areas to launch for new executive line of
>>>>> products How far is the competition from the current customer base?
>>>>>
>>>>> Coordinate system transformations
>>>>>
>>>>> SDO_CS.TRANFORM
>>>>>
>>>>> SDO_CS.TRANSFORM_LAYER
>>>>>
>>>>> Translate data from localized projections to a national projection
>>>>> Convert Universal Transverse Mercator data into longitude and
>>>>> latitude points
>>>>>
>>>>> Raster image support
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Include aerial images with the application to assist in problem
>>>>> analysis Why do people drive 20 miles to this store when there is
>>>>> one 10 miles away? Because there is a mountain in the way View how
>>>>> land has changed over a period of time and determine where people
>>>>> are moving
>>>>>
>>>>> Network datamodels
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Can I make a left hand turn at this intersection?
>>>>> Where are the gas lines on this property?
>>>>>
>>>>> Geocoding
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Standardize addresses based on postal information Correct addresses
>>>>> with common misspellings or alternative street names I have a GPS
>>>>> location, who owns the property there?
>>>>>
>>>>> Routing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How do I get to the nearest gas station from my current position?
>>>>> How long will it take me to get there?
>>>>> The street is under construction, what other alternatives do I have?
>>>>> Should I take the bus, a cab or the metro from the airport? How
>>>>> long
>>
>>>>> is it going to take me and what does it cost?
>>>>>
>>>>> Like this article? Digg it!
>>>>>
>>>>> Share and Enjoy:These icons link to social bookmarking sites where
>>>>> readers can share and discover new web pages.
>>>>>
>>>>> <image001.gif>
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>>>>>
>>>>> Related Posts:
>>>>>
>>>>> *  Google Maps and GTOs
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> 3 Responses to "Comparison of the Oracle Spatial and Locator
>> Features"
>>>>>
>>>>> Justin Lokitz Says:
>>>>> June 6th, 2006 at 9:37 am
>>>>> Nice work Matt! A couple more to add to the Spatial list: Linear
>>>>> Referencing (LRS) and Topology Data Model.
>>>>>
>>>>> Linear Referencing is a model where "measurement" information
>>>>> associated with a linear geometry is stored with the geometries
>>>>> themselves. This allows many attributes or events to be associated
>>>>> with a specified segment on a linear geometry. Attributes or events
>>>>> are stored in tables separately from the geometry, and the geometry
>>>>> does not have to be duplicated in the attribute tables. Linear
>>>>> referencing is often used by departments of transportation, to
>>>>> model
>>
>>>>> roads or railroads and their attributes; utilities, to model oil or
>>>>> gas pipes and their attributes; and telecommunications providers. A
>>>>> good example of this might be, "return all of the road segments
>>>>> that
>>
>>>>> have poor pavement" or "a vehicle has gone off the highway at some
>>>>> longitude/latitude; what's the mile post there so ambulances can
>>>>> reach it easily?" etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Topology Data Modeling is used when there is a high degree of
>>>>> feature editing and a strong requirement for data integrity across
>>>>> maps and map layers. An example of where this is used a lot is in
>>>>> land management where one has to account for land parcels, water
>>>>> features, road features, utilities and other features. Because in
>>>>> the end all of these features are somehow related and may even
>>>>> border one another, problems topology modeling solves are things
>>>>> like "what happens to a land parcel or sidewalk when a road is
>>>>> widened?" etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Justin Lokitz Says:
>>>>> June 6th, 2006 at 9:40 am
>>>>> Also...one more thing Matt: in Oracle10gR2, Locator supports
>> implicit
>>>>> and explicit coordinate system transformation (just like Spatial).
>>>>>
>>>>> Topper Says:
>>>>> June 6th, 2006 at 9:41 am
>>>>> Thanks Justin, I also need to add the Oracle Mapviewer and Oracle
>>>>> Maps content to the list too. Maybe another post soon...
>>>>>
>>>>> Leave a Reply
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> <image014.jpg>
>>>>> Matt Topper
>>>>> Email: matt at matttopper.com
>>>>> Phone: 586.855.4595
>>>>> Currently Working For:These Guys
>>>>>
>>>>> August 2006
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>>> --
>>> SpatialDB Advice, Solutions Architect, Manifold Enthusiast, Oracle
>>> Spatial Specialist.
>>> Allens Rivulet, Tasmania, Australia.
>>> Voice: +61 3 62396397
>>> Longitude: 147.2048
>>> Latitude: -43.0141
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> --
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>> http://www.nabble.com/Oracle-Spatial-v-s-Oracle-Locator-with-MapGuide-
>> FD
>> O-tf2194071.html#a6086350
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>>
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> 2194071.html#a6086989
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-- 
SpatialDB Advice, Solutions Architect, Manifold Enthusiast, Oracle Spatial  
Specialist.
Allens Rivulet, Tasmania, Australia.
Voice: +61 3 62396397
Longitude: 147.2048
Latitude: -43.0141

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