[mapserver-dev] FW: MapServer enhancements/refactoring project
Kralidis,Tom [Ontario]
Tom.Kralidis at ec.gc.ca
Wed Apr 1 16:42:32 EDT 2009
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mapserver-dev-bounces at lists.osgeo.org
> [mailto:mapserver-dev-bounces at lists.osgeo.org] On Behalf Of
> Daniel Morissette
> Sent: Wednesday, 01 April 2009 16:20
> Cc: mapserver-dev at lists.osgeo.org
> Subject: Re: [mapserver-dev] FW: MapServer
> enhancements/refactoring project
>
> Tom,
>
> I thought we could have come up with a clear plan before
> going public with this info, and would have thought that a
> XML and Web Services fan like you would have been in support
> of a move to a better XML and service-oriented architecture.
> Java is robust enough now that you should not let the
> technical details bog you down... think about the future.
>
Why can't we do this with libxml2 and libxslt in C?
> This is an opportunity for us to take the MapServer name to
> the next level, based on a more modern architecture and
> toolset. This will bring you the WFS-T and all the OGC
> services that you've been hoping for.
> Nothing goes away, the C MapServer should continue to be
> supported by a few devs for at least little while, it's just
> that the next key features will be based on the new Java
> codebase and will be added at a faster pace thanks to a
> reliable source of funding.
>
Why can't we do WFS-T in C?
> Then the MapServer Enterprise gets its real meaning!
>
> Hoping that you'll see the light soon.
>
I think this would call for a complete analysis of cost/return on
investment on a change like this. And what the problems are (in detail)
that are driving this proposal.
..Tom
> Daniel
>
> Kralidis,Tom [Ontario] wrote:
> > -dev: see thread below. I have no choice but to bring in -dev here.
> >
> > Daniel: you have got to be kidding me.
> >
> > Coming from a non-Java environment, this would represent a major
> > showstopper and end of use (and commitment) to MapServer
> from myself
> > and over 100 install bases. A change as drastic as this
> will no doubt
> > crush confidence in foss4g to those I have been working
> with so hard
> > to build MapServer and foss4g.
> >
> > For the last 10 years.
> >
> > Thanks a lot!
> >
> > Regardless, I think this thread is best discussed with the
> community
> > who should be involved in this discussion.
> >
> > ..Tom
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frank Warmerdam [mailto:warmerdam at pobox.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 01 April 2009 15:37
> > To: Daniel Morissette
> > Cc: Paul Ramsey; thomas bonfort; jmckenna at gatewaygeomatics.com;
> > yassefa at dmsolutions.ca; Kralidis,Tom [Ontario]; hobu.inc at gmail.com;
> > pnaciona at gmail.com; szekerest at gmail.com;
> umberto.nicoletti at gmail.com;
> > hobu at hobu.net; woodbri at swoodbridge.com
> > Subject: Re: MapServer enhancements/refactoring project
> >
> > Daniel,
> >
> > It's funny that you mention this. I recently had an expression of
> > interest from a client to rewrite GDAL (but not OGR yet)
> completely in
> > Java. My first reaction was to take a pass but such an
> effort would
> > be a good match with a MapServer rewrite in Java. If my
> client will
> > pay for the GDAL rewrite into Java, would you be able to
> set aside a
> > man-year or so of funding for me to also rewrite OGR in Java?
> >
> > Luckily we can use the GeoTools coordinate system implementation in
> > place of PROJ.4, so we shouldn't need to rewrite all of that.
> >
> > This level of funded work should take me comfortably through the
> > economic meltdown!
> >
> > PS. Paul, tell us what you really think!
> >
> > Paul Ramsey wrote:
> >> I've head enough great potential to last a lifetime. I'll
> stick with
> >> things that actually work. Re-writing Mapserver in Java is like
> >> tearing down Notre Dame and re-building it in Jello. You
> and the rest
> >> of the Jello-heads stay away from my church.
> >>
> >> P.
> >>
> >> On Apr 1, 2009, at 12:10 PM, Daniel Morissette wrote:
> >>
> >>> Paul Ramsey wrote:
> >>>> Daniel,
> >>>> That's quite a big change you're proposing. Not that I have
> >>>> anything
> >
> >>>> against Java per se or XML (well, maybe I have something against
> >>>> XML) but I don't want to see either taking over the Mapserver
> >>>> project, money or no money. If it's not written in
> >>>> high-performance,
> >
> >>>> highly-painful C I don't want any part of it! Perhaps
> you ate some
> >>>> bad > poutine, because the whole idea is off the rocker.
> >>> C'mon Paul... of all people I would have thought that you
> would have
> >>> been the first person to see the great potential in this move!
> >>>
> >>> As I wrote before, you pick your camp, but others have made the
> >>> right
> >
> >>> decision already.
> >>>
> >>> Daniel
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Daniel Morissette wrote:
> >>>> The baby has grown, it's an adult now, and getting quite
> mature, so
> >>>> I wouldn't call that selling the baby but actually letting it
> >>>> explore new grounds.
> >>>> Think of it this way: the power and simplicity of
> MapServer's core
> >>>> algorithms combined with the modern architecture of the Java
> >>>> language and development tools.
> >>>> Isn't it about time that we move away from the command-line
> >>>> debuggers and malloc's? It's the 21st century guys...
> let the IDE
> >>>> and the garbage collector do it all for you. It's been proven
> >>>> several times that the performance is no longer an issue
> with Java
> >>>> now so why stick with an old language from the 70's when
> we can do
> >>>> 10 times as much with a modern toolkit?
> >>>> We'll probably go ahead whether you're on board or not
> (I got one
> >>>> private reply from a MapServer dev who says he's on
> board already),
> >>>> so you choose your camp... continue to pull your hair
> with the old
> >>>> stuff or have fun taking the MapServer name to the next
> level with
> >>>> a
> >
> >>>> modern architecture.
> >>>> Daniel
> >>>> thomas bonfort wrote:
> >>>>> Daniel,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Seeing you are the "mother of MapServer" I would have
> hoped that
> >>>>> you were not so keen in selling your baby to the first
> >>>>> deep-pocketed java crackhead, even if I now that times
> are rough
> >>>>> right now and that it's probably more difficult to turn down an
> >>>>> offer that will keep you fed for a confortable amount of time.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would also have preferred that my first vote as a PSC
> member was
> >>>>> not a veto, as I cannot imagine myself going the java way with
> > mapserver.
> >>>>> regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> thomas
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 20:14, Daniel Morissette
> >>>>> <dmorissette at mapgears.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Guys,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I've been contacted by a potential client who would be
> willing to
> >>>>>> fund a complete refactoring of MapServer. It seems
> that they got
> >>>>>> wind of our discussions at the TO Code Sprint and
> would like to
> >>>>>> help with some of that, more specifically:
> >>>>>> - XML mapfiles
> >>>>>> - performance work driven in part by GeoServer which
> is getting
> >>>>>> very close to MapServer in both performance and map rendering
> >>>>>> quality
> >>>>>> - rendering plugin architecture that Thomas is working on
> >>>>>> - WFS-T support
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> They've got enough budget to get about 20 devs working on this
> >>>>>> for
> >
> >>>>>> a year, but there are two big issues in my mind: they have a
> >>>>>> tight
> >
> >>>>>> deadline, they need this done within a year, and they are
> >>>>>> currently a Java shop so they require that we deliver a Java
> >>>>>> solution (I know, I know). They considered GeoServer
> but they got
> >>>>>> turned down by the guys at OpenGeo who would not let
> them get the
> >>>>>> architectural changes they wanted for any amount of money, so
> >>>>>> they
> >
> >>>>>> figured they might have more luck with us. Oh, there is a 3rd
> >>>>>> thing:
> >>>>>> they would require that the code be closed for at least a year
> >>>>>> after the final deliverable before they let us release
> anything
> >>>>>> publicly...
> >>>>>> something
> >>>>>> related to their own internal policies and business
> plan... not
> >>>>>> ideal but at least in the end the code should be opened up.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm not too keen on a switch to Java, but it seems that the
> >>>>>> performance is no longer an issue as the GeoServer guys have
> >>>>>> demonstrated with their benchmarks, and this would
> solve many of
> >>>>>> our issues dealing with XML and Web Services (isn't
> XML the way
> >>>>>> of
> >
> >>>>>> the future anyway?). If the money is there it's hard
> to turn it
> >>>>>> down, and it could be fun to take over GeoServer on its own
> >>>>>> ground... Java!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So far I have 4 Java dev's on board. I am writing this
> to you to
> >>>>>> seek an expression of interest since I'd need at least another
> >>>>>> 4-5
> >
> >>>>>> experienced MapServer devs to undertake this project.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Who's interested?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Daniel
> >>>>>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Paul Ramsey
> >> pramsey at cleverelephant.ca
> >> +1 250 885 0632
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Daniel Morissette
> http://www.mapgears.com/
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