[OSGeo Oceania] [Aus-NZ-QGIS-group] Community consultation: OO Org QGIS Special Interest Group Charter

Mon Dec 14 22:11:40 PST 2020

Hi John,

Thanks for the comments, I'll check them out. As for the questions you
raise, they haven't been discussed yet and happy to discuss them here.

*Geographic Scope of the Special Interest Group (SIG) - * As per the OSGeo
Oceania SIG guidelines
<https://drive.google.com/file/d/1U3R3wSHR9jo9VgywmAQqKswrylwjxw9-/edit>,
it would be available to all OSGeo Oceania org (OO org) members so that
would be the geographic area that OO org represents. Emma was also very
passionate from the start that this is available to all Oceania and not
just Australia. However, I do take on board your observation about the
comments / feedback / input being very much Australian focused, in fact, I
would go one step further and say that it has primarily been from the
regular posters of the OO mailing list
<https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/oceania/>. Would yourself or Emma have
suggestions on how we could broaden the reach and improve the community
input? Are there other channels that this should be made available on?

*Which List - *My intention was that "the open mailing list" will be the OO
mailing list <https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/oceania/>, so I do
apologise for the ambiguity here and I can clear that up in the charter. As
this is a Special Interest Group within the OO org, I believe that would be
the best place for it. But that is only my opinion, happy for others to
share their point of view and reach an outcome that we are all happy with.

I have been cross-posting the charter and progress on the QGIS Australia
User Group mailing list
<https://groups.google.com/g/australian-qgis-user-group> for those who may
be interested (I now recognise that this may have caused more confusion
than necessary). A number of members in the QGIS Australia User group
(myself included) wanted to form something like this SIG after the
successful 2017 user meetup in Sydney, it ultimately failed because we
didn't have the capacity to handle funds, and something much better came
along in the local FOSS4G conference and the OO org because it addresses
this challenge for all FOSS4G projects in the region. The development of
this SIG will build on the QGIS community interest that we demonstrated
exists in 2017, this time around we have the structure of the OO org to
help us progress funding initiatives to drive investment in the community.

Hope that helps,
Thanks

Andrew

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 2:54 PM John Bryant <johnwbryant at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Andrew, awesome work! I've added a few small comments in the doc and
> want to bring up a couple of thoughts. Apologies if I'm raising questions
> that have already been answered.
>
> *Geographic scope of the SIG*. In the doc it's called the Oceania QGIS
> SIG. I know we've talked about inclusivity, and welcoming participation
> from the whole region, in keeping with the ethos of FOSS4G SotM Oceania and
> OSGeo Oceania. But I'm noticing that so far, (I think) the discussion has
> only drawn comments and contributions from people in Australia. I guess
> this is partly because the QGIS Australia community is pretty well
> established, with a recognised QGIS user group and a mailing list dating
> back nearly 10 years. But I'm wondering if we need to do more work to make
> sure people in other countries welcome this representation. Does the lack
> of participation to date reflect that the message isn't getting through, or
> that only Australians are interested in this SIG? Or is it just that the
> Australia QGIS community is leading the conversation because it's more
> established, and maybe the rest of the region is watching & listening with
> interest, and will join in later?
>
> *Which list?* There are a couple of references to "the open mailing
> list", it might be good for us to clarify which list. The existing QGIS
> Australia User Group mailing list
> <https://groups.google.com/g/australian-qgis-user-group>, or the Oceania
> list, or another? I think it could be helpful to make this unambiguous so
> that people know where to post, and which list to follow to stay up to
> date. This might be part of a larger question of whether this SIG is
> distinct from the QGIS Australia User Group, or is the same group in a new
> form.
>
> Thanks!
> John
>
> On Sun, 6 Dec 2020 at 13:42, Andrew Jeffrey <aljeffrey83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Thanks for the discussion on the QGIS SIG proposed charter so far.
>>
>> I have worked in the comments on dealing with a conflict of interest,
>> voting (minimum number of voters), and membership tiers. Also a few
>> formatting changes e.g. I moved the membership section higher up in the
>> document.
>>
>> I suspect the membership tiers may need some further discussion, these
>> were the tiers loosely discussed by our SIG proposers very early on (not
>> the price but the distinction - prices are placeholders at the moment), we
>> could also look at the pricing of the Swiss User group for guidance
>> <https://www.qgis.ch/en/association/membership-application>. However,
>> again this is all open for your input and feedback.
>>
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lrewntrC0N1r6mfZdo1AdPhe2qTEaN5hDA2pcL0mrvI/edit?usp=sharing
>>
>> Thanks
>> Andrew
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:20 AM Andrew Jeffrey <aljeffrey83 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the discussion and input so far.
>>>
>>> I see there are some comments on the charter itself as well which is
>>> great, we'll try and address each of those in the document and I believe
>>> you can see the history/resoltion of these in the "comment history" in the
>>> doc itself. What I can see from the initial feedback is that the
>>> "membership" or definition of needs more detail and we need to address the
>>> potential for "conflicts of interest" when raising and voting on motions.
>>>
>>> @adam - if you don't mind I will add your example text for dealing with
>>> conflicts of interest from the previous email verbatim as a starting point
>>> and evolve it from there.
>>>
>>> Also, remember if you want to have some editing input on the charter
>>> reach out and I can add you as an editor to the document.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 9:48 PM Emma Hain <emmahain at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Emma Hain
>>>>
>>>> On 30 Nov 2020, at 17:03, Phil Wyatt <phil at wyatt-family.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.qgis.ch/en/association/membership-application
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers - Phil,
>>>> On the road with his iPad
>>>>
>>>> On 30 Nov 2020, at 5:30 pm, Emma Hain <emmahain at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hey All
>>>> I’m with the essence of what Martin put forward as well as Nathan. If
>>>> those that can do pool together funds under the SIG then we can get the
>>>> tools that Oceania needs.
>>>> Is there a link to the Swiss Qgis funding model?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Emma Hain
>>>>
>>>> On 30 Nov 2020, at 13:51, Martin Tomko <tomkom at unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> I just chip in, to elaborate on what I was thinking about when drafting
>>>> the SIG guidelines.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The overall model, for me, was that of the ACM SIGs, which work well (
>>>> some), or less well ( others), but do not impact on each other. An OO
>>>> member can be member of multiple SIGs, or none. Some may organise
>>>> hackatons, mapping parties, microconferences, some may not. Some may even
>>>> propose ( and successfully populate and run) a stream at a FOSS4G SOTM
>>>> conference (that would be awesome). They may help set the program for the
>>>> conference, etc, etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The level of activity, and the financial resources they may have
>>>> available will differ, and it is not up to the OO (board) to dictate, as
>>>> long as they do not encroach on the freedom of others to have their own
>>>> activities, do not place undue burden on the OO itself (run by volunteers,
>>>> you do not want to process hundreds of micro payments, etc, I would say),
>>>> or have multiple SIGs overlapping in scope.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Re fees. I would have assumed that most will be free, BUT the ability
>>>> to levy a membership[ fee was left there exactly to satisfy the need for
>>>> supporting a more intensive activity that is not “event” based. So, if the
>>>> QGIS SIG decides to print a monthly SIG magazine and provide it as a
>>>> membership service to the SIG, sure, why not, levy a membership fee. Or a
>>>> website, online course, or similar.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Broader membership by organisations is starting to go borderline, to
>>>> what Adam noted. Is this something where the overall interests of the
>>>> organisation clash with the SIG? I would suggest let’s try this, and
>>>> decide, as we go. If the burden by SIGS or the internal competition is too
>>>> much ( we lose FOS4G SOTM sponsors to the SIG), then this will need to be
>>>> addressed. This is I believe the main concern, but we are not there.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Martin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Oceania <oceania-bounces at lists.osgeo.org>
>>>> *Date: *Monday, 30 November 2020 at 1:51 pm
>>>> *To: *Cameron Shorter <cameron.shorter at gmail.com>
>>>> *Cc: *QGIS Australia User Group <
>>>> australian-qgis-user-group at googlegroups.com>, OSgeo - Oceania <
>>>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [OSGeo Oceania] [Aus-NZ-QGIS-group] Community
>>>> consultation: OO Org QGIS Special Interest Group Charter
>>>>
>>>> Hey Cameron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The issue of membership fees is only for the QGIS special interest
>>>> group. The OSGeo Oceania membership will always be zero, or near zero cost.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'll let the QGIS folks speak for themselves, but they're talking about
>>>> being able to pool money to fund specific activities, and if people are
>>>> willing to pay for a subscription to regularly contribute, and they call it
>>>> a membership of that QGIS SIG, that's all good, I say!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 at 13:33, Cameron Shorter <
>>>> cameron.shorter at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The question of membership fees pops up every few years with arguments
>>>> for and against.
>>>>
>>>> I summarized a bunch of threads in the OSGeo community back when I was
>>>> on the OSGeo board in:
>>>> http://cameronshorter.blogspot.com/2013/03/osgeo-board-priorities.html
>>>> .There may be some points in there which you can reuse.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OSGeo as a low capital, volunteer focused organisation
>>>>
>>>> Should OSGeo act as a high capital or low capital organisation? I.e.,
>>>> should OSGeo dedicate energy to collecting sponsorship and then passing out
>>>> these funds to worthy OSGeo causes.
>>>> While initially it seems attractive to have OSGeo woo sponsors, because
>>>> we would all love to have more money to throw at worthy OSGeo goals, the
>>>> reality is that chasing money is hard work. And someone who can chase OSGeo
>>>> sponsorship is likely conflicted with chasing sponsorship for their
>>>> particular workplace. So in practice, to be effective in chasing
>>>> sponsorship, OSGeo will probably need to hire someone specifically for the
>>>> role. OSGeo would then need to raise at least enough to cover wages, and
>>>> then quite a bit more if the sponsorship path is to create extra value.
>>>> This high capital path is how the Eclipse foundation is set up, and how
>>>> LocationTech propose to organise themselves. It is the path that OSGeo
>>>> started following when founded under the umbrella of Autodesk.
>>>> However, over the last seven years, OSGeo has slowly evolved toward a
>>>> low capital volunteer focused organisation. Our overheads are very low,
>>>> which means we waste very little of our volunteer labour and capital on the
>>>> time consuming task of chasing and managing money. Consequently, any money
>>>> we do receive (from conference windfalls or sponsorship) goes a long way -
>>>> as it doesn't get eaten up by high overheads. As discussed and agreed by
>>>> the board, this low capital path is something that is working very well for
>>>> us, and is the path we should continue to follow.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2020 at 05:21, Adam Steer <adam.d.steer at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Andrew for addressing all the questions people have. Responding
>>>> to your reply to my questions:
>>>>
>>>> - OK about sponsorships and so on, I can see that the QGIS SIG could
>>>> choose to align events with FOSS4G SotM Oceania editions, thereby
>>>> really streamlining logistics and effort and working with the whole
>>>> community
>>>>
>>>> - conflict of interest: really hard in a community where everyone
>>>> knows each other - my science community is the same, anonymous reviews
>>>> are almost impossible! I think yes, recusing people from decision
>>>> making is a great step. I also think it's unrealistic to make a
>>>> blanket statement that fits all cases. I think the best approach might
>>>> be to handle each case as it comes, and do it transparently. To make a
>>>> concrete suggestion - and feel free to disagree - the charter could
>>>> contain a statement  like 'Conflicts of interest, real or perceived,
>>>> will be handled in accordance with our code of conduct. This means
>>>> recusing relevant parties from decision making as early as possible in
>>>> the process, and discussing the matter openly with our community. In
>>>> some cases, we may have to proceed by funding people who make
>>>> decisions about where to apply funds. This is a function of a small
>>>> and close knit community, and will always be discussed openly with the
>>>> community first.'
>>>>
>>>> There are probably heaps of loopholes in that, and impossible to close
>>>> them all - so the short version is to write exactly what you wrote in
>>>> reply: 'we will be ethical, and will resist being a funding pipeline
>>>> to particular people or companies'. The community has to step up to
>>>> make that always true.
>>>>
>>>> I have no thoughts to add to John's about SIG membership, except I
>>>> really like that you're thinking about how to manage it in an
>>>> inclusive fashion.
>>>>
>>>> I do have an opinion about creating sub-SIGS though - in my science
>>>> career I've seen multiple disciplines discover the same tooling a few
>>>> times. So my hot take is 'avoid having discipline-specific subgroups',
>>>> way better to let disciplinary cross-fertilisation happen ;)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Adam
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 29 Nov 2020 at 09:39, Andrew Jeffrey <aljeffrey83 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hi,
>>>> >
>>>> > No problems, with everything going on post conference, elections, and
>>>> the upcoming holiday period we may need to leave this open for comment for
>>>> a little longer than normal. Happy to go with what people feel is needed
>>>> here.
>>>> >
>>>> > John, regarding your thoughts on the membership I agree 100%, the
>>>> charter at the moment has a sentence stating the SIG should be "providing
>>>> membership avenues for people that may not be in a financial position to
>>>> pay a fee" perhaps we need more clarity around membership and what it
>>>> involves in the charter? To be clear, my thoughts are that keeping in the
>>>> spirit of OO the SIG should be available to everyone and no one should be
>>>> excluded from participating, on reflection the term "membership" might come
>>>> across as prohibitive. I'm sure we'll come up with something acceptable
>>>> through conversation here.
>>>> >
>>>> > For context though it may be helpful to explain the intent behind the
>>>> idea of a "membership". The issues it aims to address are below:
>>>> >
>>>> > There is some difficulty associated with organisations giving a
>>>> "donation", but purchasing something like a "membership" to a professional
>>>> user group seems to be acceptable and is easier justified in some
>>>> procurement processes.
>>>> > For individuals donating to QGIS helps the project but has little
>>>> influence on their QGIS experience, also individuals on the QGIS list have
>>>> indicated trouble participating in crowdfunding campaigns due to high
>>>> minimum pledges.
>>>> >
>>>> > A QGIS SIG would allow us to receive money from interested parties
>>>> wanting to support QGIS in our region, pool the funds and then spend as the
>>>> SIG sees fit. The best part is the money will be spent on the items scoped
>>>> in our charter which is again relevant to users in our region. For lack of
>>>> a better term think of it as a "co-op" for the donations alot of us already
>>>> make on an ad-hoc basis. Ideally we would be looking to get a majority of
>>>> the membership from organisations that we know use QGIS to support a bulk
>>>> of this activity, and then people willing to make a personal contribution
>>>> would then add to that. Then if people can't make a personal contribution
>>>> that is also fine because they can assist in other ways.
>>>> >
>>>> > That was the idea in justifying a membership fee. We will need to
>>>> offer something in return, for individuals that will be the professional
>>>> network and for organisations that will be recognition at this early stage
>>>> but as we progress this may evolve.
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks
>>>> > Andrew
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 3:57 PM John Bryant <johnwbryant at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Andrew, thanks a lot for continuing to push this forward. It has
>>>> been a couple of months since I last looked at this, and I haven't really
>>>> had a detailed look at the SIG concept yet.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I'm 'out of the office' for the next few days, but would be happy to
>>>> join in this discussion when I get back, and have a proper chance to
>>>> refresh my memory and get up to speed on SIGs.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> One brief thought, it feels like it would be good to consider a free
>>>> (or very inexpensive) tier of membership. I suspect many of us can't
>>>> justify (or can't afford) to spend much, but could contribute in other ways.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Cheers
>>>> >> John
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Fri, 27 Nov 2020, 9:46 am Andrew Jeffrey, <aljeffrey83 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Hi Adam,
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Thanks for the feedback.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I agree the SIG shouldn't bring about any duplication of the
>>>> processes that the OO currently does. A SIG as defined in the guidelines
>>>> should be "enabling OSGeo Oceania members to interact, share knowledge,
>>>> organise events, and collaborate on a selected, targeted topic within the
>>>> scope of OSGeo Oceania". So a SIG should be complementary to the OO
>>>> function and allow the interested community members to drive engagement in
>>>> that area without the OO board having to do it all. Like you say though,
>>>> open communication between the SIG and the OO board is key in making sure
>>>> there is no overlap being introduced. Also to be clear the SIG isn’t
>>>> seeking “sponsorship” as such but we do want to be able to collect a
>>>> membership fee for people/orgs wanting to be involved, allowing them to
>>>> fund items that maybe other OO members don’t see as important. I don’t see
>>>> this taking away from conference sponsorship and this idea will ultimately
>>>> sink or swim depending on whether the SIG members have an appetite to fund
>>>> the items in our scope.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> As for the conflict of interest, to be honest I don't know the
>>>> answer in regards to how that should be dealt with. I think we need to add
>>>> something in the charter, would removing those people from the proposal and
>>>> voting process be enough? How does OO deal with this? I don’t want to rule
>>>> local devs out of working on this because they belong to the group, but we
>>>> also don’t want to become the entry point to company XYZ.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Thanks for the feedback.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Andrew
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 7:35 AM Adam Steer <adam.d.steer at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Hey Andrew and all the QGIS SIG proposers
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Thanks, I think this is a perfect use of OSGeo Oceania as a backing
>>>> >>>> organisation :)
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> My only reservation with any SIG proposal is that effort isn't
>>>> >>>> duplicated about events and marketing, and also that a funding
>>>> from a
>>>> >>>> small pool of interested parties (relative to other parts of the
>>>> >>>> world) is able to be effectively spread among the whole community.
>>>> For
>>>> >>>> an example it would be a bit awry to see a SIG gather a heap of
>>>> >>>> funding at the expense of conference sponsorships. I guess in that
>>>> >>>> case the SIG could also sponsor conferences? This goes the other
>>>> way
>>>> >>>> too - the existence of a well connected SIG makes it easier for OO
>>>> to
>>>> >>>> fund a QGIS feature (for example) if it decides to do so.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I think clear, constant and open communication between OO and the
>>>> SIG
>>>> >>>> will make those concerns go away.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> In writing this I did work my thoughts through to  a serious
>>>> question:
>>>> >>>> How will the SIG deal with conflicts of interest? A stated aim of
>>>> the
>>>> >>>> SIG is to fund development, what will the SIG do if all the key
>>>> QGIS
>>>> >>>> developers in the region are also in the group of people making
>>>> >>>> decisions about buying developer time?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> My only comment on the charter itself is that if you want, you can
>>>> >>>> link to the existing Berlin Code of Conduct:
>>>> >>>> https://berlincodeofconduct.org/ - with which the upcoming OO CoC
>>>> >>>> should be 100% compatible.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Cheers,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Adam
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Thu, 26 Nov 2020 at 04:37, Andrew Jeffrey <
>>>> aljeffrey83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > Hi All,
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > The OSGeo Oceania board has approved an initiative for members
>>>> to form Special Interest Groups (SIGs) within the OO community.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > A SIG is a way for community members to collaborate around
>>>> common interests which in this case is QGIS.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > In establishing a SIG, the OO board requires that the group
>>>> proposing the SIG put forward a charter which outlines the Aim and Scope
>>>> under which the SIG will operate.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > Myself, Emma Hain, John Bryant, Nathan Woodrow and Nyall Dawson
>>>> would like to start a QGIS SIG which can be used to benefit QGIS users in
>>>> our community. To get things started we have come up with a charter that we
>>>> would like to make available for community consultation. As this charter
>>>> currently reflects our input we would like to put this out for discussion
>>>> to see if what we are proposing is on the right path for the community. At
>>>> the moment everyone with the link below has "comment" permissions, but
>>>> "edit" permissions can be granted on request if you would like to get more
>>>> involved and you're welcome to do so.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lrewntrC0N1r6mfZdo1AdPhe2qTEaN5hDA2pcL0mrvI/edit?usp=sharing
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > I also just want to be upfront that this SIG is proposing that
>>>> there be a membership fee associated with the group. The funds raised by
>>>> the membership will be stored with the OO org and then used by the SIG on
>>>> items as scoped out in the charter. The idea with the membership is not to
>>>> "make money" but to pool our small contributions to give us better "buying
>>>> power" for lack of a better term. As a SIG within the OO org we can
>>>> participate in crowdfunding campaigns, engage a dev to develop a feature
>>>> important to us but might not be recognised as important to the larger QGIS
>>>> project, or engage a trainer to provide professional development via Zoom,
>>>> the types of things that are hard to do as individuals or as a user group
>>>> with no funds etc. The membership arrangement also allows us to offer
>>>> membership to organisations which will become a way for them to support
>>>> QGIS and their local QGIS community. Ideally, this is where a majority of
>>>> the funds would come from as we don't want an individual to be excluded due
>>>> to a "fee", which is also covered in the charter. I'm available as I'm sure
>>>> the other proposers are to discuss the intention of this further and in the
>>>> open on this list.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > Any questions feel free to ask or if you prefer to comment on
>>>> the charter that is fine too.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > I look forward to discussing this with you.
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > Thanks
>>>> >>>> > Andrew
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> >
>>>> >>>> > --
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>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Cameron Shorter
>>>>
>>>> Technical Writer, Google
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Oceania mailing list
>>>> Oceania at lists.osgeo.org
>>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Alex Leith
>>>>
>>>> m: 0419189050
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Oceania mailing list
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>>>>
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