[OSGeo Oceania] FOSS4G Hobart - Elephant in the room ESRI

Tue Nov 26 20:06:10 PST 2024

Hi,

This makes me feel unconformable as well but it's hard to put into words
why but it just does. It feels like a quick "buy in" to get a name and
place inside the community. I would say the same if MapInfo tried to
sponsor and have a keynote slot. What is the motivation for sponsorship?

To be clear though. I am ok with ESRI sending people to the conferences as
active members of the community, we all have plenty to learn from each
other.

This is not against any individual at ESRI (we are not better then anyone
just because open source), nor should we exclude people from
speaking/attending, especially given the depth of spatial knowledge to go
around in our industry and we do want to be welcoming to everyone if they
have something to share that is open source related (remember that
"blockchain" talk from Melb FOSS4G? same thing, just an ad slot; I hold the
same opinion on that).

Corporate sponsorship is another thing though because it muddies the water
on who this conference is for and who it benefits, it can be a way to buy
yourself into the community and push our the core.

There are plenty of other conferences ESRI can put their name on if they
want to have a logo and place at the table for that kind of thing. Locate,
Mapped out, etc

Yes we appreciate the work they do in OSM, in the GDAL Bran raising
project, those are fantastic efforts. More of that. But in the past they
have been hostile towards the open source community and there is a lot of
damage there.

Early Microsoft was doing the same kind thing but seems they have push hard
into open source and have a lot of active members in a lot of projects to
better those projects overall (yes that are still a corp and corps will do
corp stuff)

I would not expect ESRI to allow QGIS to sponsor or keynote a ESRI event
(or even an side aligned event) so this is should be the same for us IMO.

On Sat, 23 Nov 2024, 10:53 am Violaine via Oceania, <oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am also more than happy that this discussion occurs in this mailing
> list,
>
> Thanks to Alex also to mention this discussion will be taken into account
> by the board,
>
> Would it be possible to share feedbacks toward the community, and build
> the strategy on sponsoring and keynote collaboratively with the community?
> I am happy to support if needed.
>
> I would also like to mention that there is no need to point on opinions of
> each other, and I appreciate that this discussion goes toward a more
> inclusive direction. It's ok to have different views ^^
>
> For the "stories" : I also heard that esri refused to contribute to PGRSC
> conf as long as QGIS was represented. Plus locally (french polynesia) esri
> has an agressive approach with the governement : "they" (we will never know
> where does it comes from still) force the use of esri products, staff used
> to QGIS are forbidden to use it now... So I am not a big fan of putting too
> much visibility on ESRI during FOSS4G.
>
> And in order to correct that, as a regular OSM contributor, I never used
> esri imagery, i always found something better. I think ESRI is interested
> to sponsor OSM for their basemaps (OSM based).  It would be more than ok
> for me that they sponsor foods or goodies for OSM events : mapathons or so.
>
> Thank you all for this discussion,
>
> Happy mapping,
>
> All the best
>
> PS :english is not my native language so excuse me if some expressions are
> not the best
> Le 22/11/2024 à 11:26, Alex Leith via Oceania a écrit :
>
> Hi Cholena
>
> Just want to correct you here on your statement that *"I know ESRI
> focused on the travel grant this year, and have expressed a willingness to
> do that again."*
>
> The Esri sponsorship was justified on their side as support for the
> OpenStreetMap community, and for the State of the Map part of our
> conference. This doesn't mean anything for us as the local organising
> committee, though, as it's just general conference sponsorship. They did
> sponsor the TGP breakfast as part of their support, which was nice.
>
> Separately, the conference committee budgeted for 20% of all sponsorship
> to go as additional support towards the travel grant program, but that was
> an internal matter and decision.
>
> Regarding next year's global event, I'm not going to comment on private
> conversations I've had with a range of potential sponsors, but please be
> aware that we (the local organising committee) and we (the OSGeo Oceania
> Board) are taking this email thread seriously.
>
> Cheers,
>
> On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 19:33, Cholena Smart via Oceania <
> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm on the 'this makes me uncomfortable' side of the fence here. I think
>> Andrew J has articulated it really nicely, and I strongly support the
>> notion that sponsorship should be carefully considered, not just the who,
>> but the how as well.
>>
>> I know ESRI focused on the travel grant this year, and have expressed a
>> willingness to do that again. The travel grant program is one of the most
>> prominent components of the conference, and it is built on the time, energy
>> and good will of a bunch of volunteers, as well as the financial
>> contributions from other sponsors and individuals, and the notion that you
>> might be able to buy influence and bypass all that goodness just
>> doesn't seem right. I'd hope not to see one financial sponsor receiving
>> more credit, rights, or recognition than any other contributor in this case.
>>
>> On a side note, I did hear a mocking comment from one of the ESRI reps at
>> the conference about the open sourceness of the conference, which really
>> hasn't helped me formulate a positive opinion. Anyway, I'm really glad this
>> was raised (thank you Andrew) - more than one conversation was had about it
>> at the conference, so it's great to see a more public discussion.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Cholena
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 09:28, Simon Nitz via Oceania <
>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Happy to shoot this particular elephant!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To be honest I have been shat on by certain NZ ESRI partners (note there
>>> is no direct ESRI presence in NZ, which may have made a difference) over
>>> the years - both as a vendor and as a potential client.  So, I have no
>>> particular love for the NZ ESRI partners (although there are some
>>> exceptional individuals I talk to occasionally).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think it is fantastic that everyone is engaging in this conversation
>>> (even if my own views may not align with everyone) and we should certainly
>>> consider our communities views when looking at sponsorship in the future.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Simon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Oceania <oceania-bounces at lists.osgeo.org> *On Behalf Of *Carrol
>>> Chan via Oceania
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 21, 2024 2:08 PM
>>> *To:* eli <elipuccioni at gmail.com>
>>> *Cc:* OSgeo - Oceania <oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [OSGeo Oceania] FOSS4G Hobart - Elephant in the room ESRI
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Even though I did not attend the conference this year I was definitely a
>>> bit taken aback when I saw ESRI as a sponsor and completely understand the
>>> feelings of those who have been burned not only by regional distributors,
>>> but also strong ESRI advocates. However, I believe our community
>>> (especially young and recent graduates) is made up of many 'converted' ESRI
>>> users, and in some cases we're basically preaching to the choir. I see this
>>> as a positive step, where it opens the opportunity to build a bridge to
>>> many individuals on the other side who are just as passionate about their
>>> work and looking to belong to a community as awesome as ours. At the end of
>>> the day, we all utilise what works for us, whether open or commercial. I
>>> definitely sound naive, but as Eli has mentioned, I've also learned to
>>> value and trust individuals over large (and sometimes scary) organisations,
>>> and I think it would be a step back to close our community off to
>>> organisations such as ESRI, which could also make individuals associated
>>> feel unwelcome.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This discussion is incredibly valuable, and I hope it continues as it
>>> would be useful for the organising committee for next year's global FOSS4G
>>> in Auckland!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Vinaka,
>>>
>>> Carrol
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 11:12, eli via Oceania <oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks to Andrew and everyone else who has contributed to this
>>> discussion. It seems to have stirred quite a reaction in the community, and
>>> it’s important to address it.
>>>
>>> As Alex pointed out, the committee's decisions are somewhat separate
>>> from the board. That said, I personally supported this initiative. Like
>>> many of you, I’ve been ‘burned’ by ESRI regional distributors, who in some
>>> countries actively try (and sometimes succeed) to poach potential clients.
>>> This creates significant damage to small companies like mine, all for a few
>>> thousand dollars that likely don’t even cover their Christmas party
>>> expenses.
>>>
>>> However, I was thrilled to have Kate Fickas as one of our (all female)
>>> keynote speakers. In my opinion, she’s an amazing person who genuinely
>>> cares about community building, as demonstrated through her Ladies of
>>> Landsat group and her ongoing activism on social media. She’s also a
>>> long-time friend of FOSS4G OO, having been a keynote speaker at our online
>>> 2021 conference, waking up at an ungodly hour to help us deliver quality
>>> content during a challenging time. It’s also worth noting that she was
>>> selected and agreed to be a keynote speaker for the Hobar conference before
>>> anyone considered having ESRI as a sponsor.
>>>
>>> From what I understand, Kate played a pivotal role in encouraging ESRI
>>> to sponsor the conference, as one of her roles is community building. I
>>> recognise that some may view this as an attempt from ESRI to interfere in
>>> our community, and I don’t want to be naïve and discard that possibility.
>>> Nevertheless, I tend to value and trust individuals over large
>>> organizations. My experience has shown that we shouldn’t judge people’s
>>> intentions and behaviour based solely on the companies they work for.
>>>
>>> We have talented, passionate members in our community who work for
>>> ‘questionable’ big companies, and we embrace them. If we cut off ESRI,
>>> should we also discuss those other companies? Perhaps, and I’d be happy to
>>> contribute to that conversation. But if we accept contributions from other
>>> companies, why not try to build a bridge with ESRI, which is undeniably
>>> doing good things with GDAL and in the OSM world? Additionally, having ESRI
>>> at our conference could attract to the OS world people and countries that
>>> primarily use ESRI software, like the Cook Islands.
>>>
>>> For these reasons, I was pleased that the committee decided to explore
>>> this bridge-building opportunity at the conference. I thoroughly enjoyed
>>> Kate’s keynote address and our discussions, as she had many interesting and
>>> practical ideas for empowering specific members of our community, including
>>> women and non-native English speakers.
>>>
>>> That said, what matters most to me is our community. I want it to
>>> thrive, grow, and feel comfortable and safe above all else. I’m more than
>>> willing to advocate against ESRI sponsorship in the future if the majority
>>> feels it’s a threat rather than an opportunity. OO exists because of all of
>>> you, and your needs always come first in our decisions. Let’s continue this
>>> discussion and see where it leads us.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Elisa
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Il giorno gio 21 nov 2024 alle ore 10:32 Alex Leith via Oceania <
>>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> ha scritto:
>>>
>>> Hi Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for raising this, and I'm glad we're having the discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The local organising committee for FOSS4G SotM Oceania operates
>>> independently of the Board, even though some on the committee may be Board
>>> members. And as a committee, we talked a lot about decisions on keynotes,
>>> making sure we were bringing the right influence to the event, the right
>>> "vibe". We talked less about sponsors, really, and that was mostly
>>> delegated to the sponsorship team (which was mostly Nick Forbes-Smith and
>>> me).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So, there are two separate items here, as you note. Kate Fickas was
>>> invited as a keynote speaker because she's been an incredible advocate for
>>> women and I think her keynote was really good. She spoke about specific
>>> initiatives, like how she worked with others in the USGS to get Virginia T.
>>> Norwood recognition as the person who actually invented Landsat!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The Esri sponsorship came up separately, though I think Kate may have
>>> encouraged it. And Esri were able to justify their sponsorship internally
>>> due to their support for the SotM component of our conference. Kate
>>> acknowledged in her keynote that Esri uses open source software in their
>>> applications. It's worth noting that Esri supported the GDAL Barnraising
>>> efforts in a significant way (https://gdalbarn.com/.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, I know that some have been burned by Esri resellers doing things
>>> that are not good, and there's a lot of hard feelings around. I don't
>>> discount that at all. But I feel as a community we should keep the gate
>>> open. We need support from business to make the conference happen, and
>>> we'll need it for the global event next year in a big way. Other
>>> organisations that may sponsor may or may have imperfect reputations in
>>> some areas, but good people work in all of these organisations. I believe
>>> it’s reasonable to welcome sponsorship from any organisation, provided they
>>> agree to our code of conduct and other reasonable conditions set by the
>>> community.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My honest personal take is that we should expect sponsors to not be
>>> anti-open source and not be anti-competitive. But I think we should hold
>>> ourselves to similar standards. The era of militant anti-proprietary
>>> software movements has largely passed, and in many ways, we’ve already won.
>>> As I mentioned during the “pitch a future” session at the conference, the
>>> open movement feels inevitable. Microsoft’s journey from labeling open
>>> source a “virus” to embracing it wholeheartedly is a prime example. Should
>>> we have rejected Microsoft's contributions to past events?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 02:53, Andrew Jeffrey via Oceania <
>>> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope everyone that was able to attend the FOSS4G SOTM Oceania Hobart
>>> conference had a great time. I'm still very much bummed that I wasn't able
>>> to make it down there and my only start at the OO conference remains
>>> Melbourne in 2018. I plan on improving my numbers as best I can into the
>>> future, but from the outside looking in, it looked like all those that
>>> attended had a blast - well done conference committee and OO board.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am writing to the list because I have a question that has been bugging
>>> me ever since I talked to a colleague who attended the event. That question
>>> is "What's the deal with ESRI being a sponsor?". I have genuine
>>> curiosity when it comes to the decision process in having them on board. I
>>> understand these things take money to put on and the conference needs to
>>> turn a profit, a healthy conference makes for a healthy OO which allows the
>>> organisation to do many of the great things that they do. However, I think
>>> this sponsorship from ESRI should be reconsidered in the future.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just to be clear, I am not opposed to speakers who work for ESRI coming
>>> and talking, from all reports the keynote from Kate Fickas was amazing (as
>>> were all the keynotes from what I hear) and these are the industry people
>>> that we all crave to hear from - top job in landing that line up! But as
>>> for sponsorship I feel that ESRI is putting their brand on a community that
>>> a lot of us turned to when looking for refuge from them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I acknowledge that my opinion on this is biased as a QGIS advocate and
>>> trainer. But something about this just feels off! I don't see what's in it
>>> for the FOSS4G community having ESRI involved in our conferences, to me it
>>> looks more of a cheap way for them to buy some good news without doing
>>> anything to improve the relationship with the FOSS4G community.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> However, I know I wasn't there, and I could be wrong about the whole
>>> thing. Maybe the overwhelming opinion is that it's a good thing and this is
>>> a step in the right direction? I would be interested in hearing what people
>>> think and even hearing from someone on the conference organising committee
>>> that has more knowledge about this. Is this something the conference would
>>> do again? Is there a limit to their involvement? What would have happened
>>> if they were a platinum sponsor and got the primary logo placement + verbal
>>> mention at opening and closing of the event?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Oceania mailing list
>>> Oceania at lists.osgeo.org
>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Alex Leith*
>>>
>>> m: +61 419 189 050
>>>
>>> https://auspatious.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Oceania mailing list
>>> Oceania at lists.osgeo.org
>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Potrebbe andar peggio...potrebbe piovere!
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
>>>
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>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
> --
> *Alex Leith*
> m: +61 419 189 050
> https://auspatious.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Oceania mailing listOceania at lists.osgeo.orghttps://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
>
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