[OSGeo Oceania] FOSS4G Hobart - Elephant in the room ESRI

Tue Jan 21 19:18:04 PST 2025

Hi All
The great thing about a strong community is that we discuss things, learn,
change, or hold steadfast to our values and everyone is respected for their
position but we can see pass these views and still have a great community.

In regards to Kate's presentation, I did have issues with it but rewatching
it has resolved some of the issues - so thank you Alex:
1) The derision of FOSS4G through the comical comment at 09:15 - her
response was actually quite good saying you can use both.
2) Marketing of ESRI's firewire - apologies here - I believed that this was
a closed product but it is open.I think this was clouded by what the people
at the ESRI desk were marketing.

Byron, what you have written shows such a peek to an understanding on the
internal machinations that we should take heed.  It must be hard for the
people on the ground, when the wishes of those who sit in management don't
support their movement and support of FOSS4G. Perhaps Kate is fighting an
uphill battle and we give a bit of leeway, as long as the developed
guidelines based on FOSS4G principles are followed.

The complexity I think shouldn't be put on a few, I personally am not
loving all the time I am taking on this when I could be undertaking work
for Disaster mapping. However, I see this is important for the community so
it is a priority for me. I urge you to speak up - either way - to help
steer this conference in the direction that is right for us this year.

To encourage anyone to be an ethical player in this community, and they
succeeding in this, should be the outcome of whatever we do as long as we
look to the safety and preservation of our community's culture.

Cheers
Em

On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 12:36 PM Byron via Oceania <oceania at lists.osgeo.org>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Thanks Alex for this well presented response.
>
> I too have little quibble with Kate’s presentation, but do feel a bit
> uncomfortable with ESRI’s presence at FOSS4G. Not so much that I do not
> think they shouldn't be there, but enough that I would like to see them
> kept on a tight leash.
>
> My own experience with ESRI that leads me to doubt their intentions comes
> from my experiences with ESRI Redlands HQ. I have found their support a bit
> disingenuous and their business approaches often undermine FOSS efforts.
>
> Yet I still deal with them on occasion - mostly in the realm of
> international standards bodies. Which is kind of interesting in that they
> have no one on staff who know open standards enough to contribute directly.
> I find this problematic in the FOSS space because FOSS relies heavily on
> open standards.
>
> Yes ESRI has some open source projects. The one with which I am most
> familiar is GeoPortal. This is almost a clone of GeoNetwork. They do not
> engage with GeoNetwork to speak of nor do GN people seem welcome on the GP
> team. The project seems to be positioned to undermine a well established
> FOSS4G project. Luckily it is not succeeding. Mostly it succeeds at being a
> figleaf for saying they support FOSS4G.
>
> While they do support GDAL, they do so for selfish reasons - it is a cheap
> way to get some good functionality that they can charge for. Nothing wrong
> with that. I was in talks with ESRI VP Satish Sankaran about developing a
> similar OS package for metadata. He thought Jack D would go for it, as they
> no longer have this type of expertise in house, but the idea went nowhere.
> Satish indicated that Jack was only lukewarm to FOSS and GDAL was a bit of
> an exception that Jack may or may not go for again in the future with other
> FOSS efforts.
>
> In practice, I have found ESRI is quite hostile to FOSS4G software and
> lukewarm to the standards that underlie it. They are very comfortable with
> vendor lock in. They claim to support open standards and interoperability,
> but they do so just enough to check that box. In practice, there are so
> many bugs in their interoperability that users give up and just buy ESRI.
> That is by design.
>
> ESRI also like to undermine our customer base by badmouthing FOSS4G and
> offering free licenses to our clients. I am facing this now with Iwi
> customers of mine. Not bad mouthing me personally but dismissing the value
> and capability of FOSS4G. They often hook these orgs in with free licenses
> out of their benevolence (yeah, right) then send a huge maintenance
> contract after they are totally trapped in the ESRI environment.
>
> So yes, I too am cautious about ESRI sponsorship. Because they are hard
> nosed corporates and will eat our lunch if they possibly can. Nothing
> personal. Just business.
>
> There are times they do contribute meaningfully. I would like to hear
> about those. ESRI is also a company that we cannot ignore in this line of
> work. Engagement is important. It is also important to keep a close eye on
> them because they WILL eat our lunch if they can. I would like to convince
> them that is not in their best interest. Can’t do that if we do not engage.
>
> Ngā Mihi,
> Byron
>
> On 21 Jan 2025, at 2:06 PM, Alex Leith via Oceania <
> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
> Hey Folks
>
> Hope we've all had a great break and are ready to tackle a new year, one
> that already has some weird stuff going on in other countries, but
> hopefully we're all safe and well and I wish everyone the best.
>
> So, coming back around to this topic of the elephant.
>
> First, I acknowledge that you're raising the issue of sponsorship here,
> Andrew, but I wanted to share Kate's keynote, because I just rewatched it,
> with an open mind and I cannot find anything in it that is offensive and I
> don't think there's even any marketing in there. It's about the work that
> we do, and calls out the way we should be talking to each other without
> divisiveness, which is a message I wholeheartedly endorse.
>
> So, here's the recording of Kate's talk, for those of you who weren't
> there:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH-8tseMQRQ&list=PLlZzWSPAR5GY4xk_3QvE-nR1vL2AGQYxI
>
> There's a question explicitly stated and implicit too, which is "why was
> Esri there, and do they belong there" and I think it's actually hard to
> argue that they don't. Esri Inc (the US organisation) sponsored at least
> three past global FOSS4G events, and they have active open source projects
> on GitHub https://github.com/esri/. As Martin noted, they've supported
> GDAL in a really big way with cash too. Whether we like it or not, I think
> they are part of our community, and I'd like to think that as an open
> community celebrating open geospatial things, that we should be open to
> this truth.
>
> Now, one more thing from me is that I do acknowledge the bad blood caused
> by certain regional distributors and I've heard some really terrible
> stories, but I consider the global organisation separate from this (though
> perhaps not without some responsibility...). That bad behaviour should be
> called out when anyone does it... and I do call things out, and will
> continue to do so.
>
> Anyhow, this email is really to provide a bit more context by sharing
> Kate's talk, and I hope it helps to show the way that she really did try to
> talk about the bigger picture, and talk about the things we do, and I think
> it really did hit the mark in terms of what I'd like keynote talks to aim
> for.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Alex
>
> On Thu, 21 Nov 2024 at 02:53, Andrew Jeffrey via Oceania <
> oceania at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I hope everyone that was able to attend the FOSS4G SOTM Oceania Hobart
>> conference had a great time. I'm still very much bummed that I wasn't able
>> to make it down there and my only start at the OO conference remains
>> Melbourne in 2018. I plan on improving my numbers as best I can into the
>> future, but from the outside looking in, it looked like all those that
>> attended had a blast - well done conference committee and OO board.
>>
>> I am writing to the list because I have a question that has been bugging
>> me ever since I talked to a colleague who attended the event. That question
>> is "What's the deal with ESRI being a sponsor?". I have genuine
>> curiosity when it comes to the decision process in having them on board. I
>> understand these things take money to put on and the conference needs to
>> turn a profit, a healthy conference makes for a healthy OO which allows the
>> organisation to do many of the great things that they do. However, I think
>> this sponsorship from ESRI should be reconsidered in the future.
>>
>> Just to be clear, I am not opposed to speakers who work for ESRI coming
>> and talking, from all reports the keynote from Kate Fickas was amazing (as
>> were all the keynotes from what I hear) and these are the industry people
>> that we all crave to hear from - top job in landing that line up! But as
>> for sponsorship I feel that ESRI is putting their brand on a community that
>> a lot of us turned to when looking for refuge from them.
>>
>> I acknowledge that my opinion on this is biased as a QGIS advocate and
>> trainer. But something about this just feels off! I don't see what's in it
>> for the FOSS4G community having ESRI involved in our conferences, to me it
>> looks more of a cheap way for them to buy some good news without doing
>> anything to improve the relationship with the FOSS4G community.
>>
>> However, I know I wasn't there, and I could be wrong about the whole
>> thing. Maybe the overwhelming opinion is that it's a good thing and this is
>> a step in the right direction? I would be interested in hearing what people
>> think and even hearing from someone on the conference organising committee
>> that has more knowledge about this. Is this something the conference would
>> do again? Is there a limit to their involvement? What would have happened
>> if they were a platinum sponsor and got the primary logo placement + verbal
>> mention at opening and closing of the event?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Andrew
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Oceania at lists.osgeo.org
>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/oceania
>>
>
>
> --
> *Alex Leith*
> m: +61 419 189 050
> https://auspatious.com
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