[Live-demo] [Board] Retire MapTiler from OSGeo-Live

Angelos Tzotsos gcpp.kalxas at gmail.com
Fri Feb 13 04:54:09 PST 2015 

Hi Even,


On 02/13/2015 02:05 PM, Even Rouault wrote:
> Hi,
>
> (adding gdal-dev in CC as it is of interest)
>
> As far as I understand (but I may be wrong as I haven't looked deeply at the
> code), maptiler (the open source project) consists of an improved
> gdal2tiles.py + a python gui.
> The duplication between gdal2tiles.py in maptiler and GDAL isn't something
> particularly great. Ideally there should be one single version maintained in
> the OSGeo ecosystem.
>
> So there are several possibilities I can imagine :
>
> 1) Merge maptiler's gdal2tiles enhancements into GDAL version, and make
> maptiler just a GUI over it
>
> 2) Merge maptiler's gdal2tiles enhancements into GDAL version, and also import
> the GUI (I think it is lightweight) if there's no too strong build
> complications involved for GDAL. Would have to be checked
>
> 3) Remove gdal2tiles from GDAL so that the reborne maptiler is the reference.
> But there are perhaps fixes in GDAL gdal2tiles that should be merged into
> maptiler one (Python3 compatibility comes to mind)
>
> Any option would need someone to champion it of course...

IMO, the third option should not be considered at all, since gdal2tiles 
is very important tool in gdal and many people (including me) prefer the 
script from any GUI out there. I have also seen an improved version of 
this script dealing with multiple threads.

My preference would be option 1.

Just my 2c :)
> Even
>
>
>> Hi Eli, replying to your email, CC OSGeo-Live list (with your permission).
>>
>> I agree that we don't want to be promoting a proprietary product from an
>> Open Source page.
>>
>> I suspect Angelos' subsequent email partially addresses your suggestions:
>>
>> On 13/02/2015 10:47 am, Angelos Tzotsos wrote:
>>> We have also discussed that in order to remove the project, we request
>>> that there is an official source code repository to link to. This way
>>> we can prove that the project was open source and can be forked in the
>>> future. Unfortunately the main repository of the project was recently
>>> deleted.
>>> Without this, one can have the impression that OSGeoLive and OSGeo has
>>> endorsed and distributed proprietary software.
>>>
>>> Also we plan to introduce IceTiler in the next version of OSGeoLive.
>> For this OSGeo-Live release we will do what we can achieve within the
>> time available.
>>
>> On 13/02/2015 11:58 am, Eli Adam wrote:
>>> Hi Cameron,
>>>
>>> I know that timeline is as big of a challenge as anything else in this
>>> case.  I have a marketing/presentation question for you below.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 2:23 PM, Cameron Shorter
>>>
>>> <cameron.shorter at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Petr, OSGeo-Live team, OSGeo Board,
>>>> Is our OSGeoLive meeting, we discussed retiring of MapTiler from
>>>> OSGeoLive. CCing OSGeo Board in discussion, in case the board wish to
>>>> comment.
>>>>
>>>> Summary:
>>>> * MapTiler was Open Source, and was included in prior OSGeo-Live
>>>> distributions
>>>> * Petr, the author, found the Open Source business model was not working
>>>> for him, and has since moved future enhancements to a proprietary
>>>> model. * The "maptiler" brand name now points to a URL of a proprietary
>>>> product. * Petr has requested MapTiler be removed from OSGeo-Live.
>>>> * As far as I've noticed, while there has been some disappointment to
>>>> loose MapTiler as an Open Source project, we respect Petr's right to
>>>> continue development using whatever model works for him. We are now
>>>> working out how to cleanly transition.
>>>>
>>>> Of note:
>>>> * We have prior OSGeo-Live releases and documentation which reference
>>>> the previous Open Source Maptiler.
>>>> * OSGeo-Live wish to retain our reputation of promoting Open Source
>>>> products, both now, and in the past.
>>>>
>>>> Proposal for our imminent OSGeo-Live 8.5 release:
>>>> * OSGeoLive will add a statement to our contents page [1] stating:
>>>> "Maptiler: not included after OSGeo-Live 8.0, after project moved to
>>>> proprietary business model"
>> On 13/02/2015 11:58 am, Eli Adam wrote:
>>> This seems odd to reference proprietary software at all.  The contents
>>> page [1] is a wonderful showcase of *open source* software.  Why
>>> include an advertisement to go look for a proprietary software that
>>> started as open source?  Linking to the last open source code with no
>>> name makes more sense to me (I know that isn't possible unless we put
>>> the code somewhere).  Or linking to http://gdal.org/gdal2tiles.html
>>> which has some similar functionality and common ancestry.  Looks like
>>> maybe licenses have varied in different points in time from different
>>> sources too.  On the short timeline, there is no fork and no name to
>>> link to yet.  If there were a fork and name would you list and link
>>> that?  If so would you list or link "MapTiler" too?
>>>
>>> You could link (or save all the information from),
>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20131216172514/http://www.maptiler.org/
>>> The Google Code SVN repo is also accessible through that method.  It
>>> appears that google code svn still works, for instance, svn checkout
>>> http://maptiler.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ maptiler-read-only
>>>
>>> I'm sure that you'll work it out fine but just wanted you to think
>>> about the appearance of that list of *open source* software.  How do
>>> you want the main list of open source geo software to appear?  I think
>>> that should be the primary purpose (and fits with the OSGeo Live
>>> project goals).
>>>
>>> Best regards, Eli
>>>
>>>> * The Maptiler Project Overview [2] will be updated to explain that
>>>> MapTiler was Open Source, but future developments were proprietary. The
>>>> Overview will reference the last Open Source version of software
>>>> available.
>>>> * The Maptiler Quickstart will be removed from docs, (but still
>>>> available in subversion)
>>>> * The maptiler installer will be disabled so MapTiler will not be
>>>> distributed on OSGeo-Live.
>>>>
>>>> If anyone has objections or comments, please raise them within 48 hours
>>>> (15 Feb 2015) such that we can address them before our release.
>>>>
>>>> Most (not all) of the history on this conversation has been copied
>>>> below.
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://live.osgeo.org/en/overview/overview.html
>>>> [2] http://live.osgeo.org/en/overview/maptiler_overview.html
>>>>
>>>> On 13/02/2015 4:29 am, Angelos Tzotsos wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I definitely agree here with Howard.
>>>>
>>>> Since Maptiler has been included in OSGeoLive for 5 years now, and Petr
>>>> has agreed to follow the OSGeoLive license for his contribution, there
>>>> has to be some kind of lineage about this project online. It cannot
>>>> just disappear. People would think that OSGeo endorced non-free
>>>> software in the past, which is not acceptable in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> We need an "official" public repository including the last version of
>>>> the open source code to link to. We should then link to that in our
>>>> documents (even if the project is removed). Cameron has already moved
>>>> the documents in the "retired" area.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that the Maptiler name has to be removed from OSGeoLive in
>>>> future versions. But, the request for removal came much after our
>>>> official 8.5 code freeze, so I am against removing stuff from 8.5
>>>> especially 10 days before release.
>>>> I propose we keep the installer for 8.5 (unless Petr provides a new deb
>>>> version with a new name).
>>>> I also propose to remove the Maptiler documents completely for this
>>>> release.
>>>>
>>>> Then, as Johan suggested we can fork Maptiler as Icetiler for the next
>>>> OSGeoLive 9.0 release and restore the docs.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Angelos
>>>>
>>>> PS. I also want to thank Petr for his work on Maptiler, it is much
>>>> appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> On 02/09/2015 11:46 AM, Johan Van de Wauw wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> First of all I would like to thank Petr for his work on Maptiler. He
>>>> has actually spent a lot of unpaid time to develop a tool which is
>>>> useful for many users.
>>>> Earning a living from open-source is hard - as most people who have
>>>> tried will be able to tell you.
>>>>
>>>> Second I would like to point out that a project that has many users
>>>> and little contributors is not necessarily unsuccessful.  If your tool
>>>> is working well, it may not scratch a developers itch[1].
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, it seems that by retiring from OsGeo live you did hit many
>>>> developers itch, so it seems this may actually be a rebirth of the
>>>> project.
>>>>
>>>> I think that the request of Petr is fair: the code remains free (which
>>>> it should, because there can be many derived works), but he just
>>>> requests not to use the name and logo. This leaves room for other
>>>> developers to jump in and create a new version. Yesterday on IRC, I
>>>> proposed the name "IceTiler" as an alternative, based on the
>>>> rebranding done by debian for many mozilla projects [2]. Other
>>>> suggestions are welcome :-)
>>>>
>>>> Taking all into account I'm +1 on removing this project from OsGeo
>>>> live in the current form, but I think we could have "IceTiler" in a
>>>> next release if there is sufficient interest.
>>>>
>>>> Kind Regards,
>>>> Johan
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar
>>>> [2]
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Corporation_software_rebranded_by_t
>>>> he_Debian_project _______________________________________________
>>>> Live-demo mailing list
>>>> Live-demo at lists.osgeo.org
>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/live-demo
>>>> http://live.osgeo.org
>>>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Live_GIS_Disc
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9/02/2015 12:09 pm, Jody Garnett wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Trademarks is one of those issues we tend to handle off-list with mentor
>>>> and project  leadership (and/or the board if required).
>>>>
>>>> In this case the author and trademark owner in one in the same (and has
>>>> a fairly clear request).
>>>>
>>>> My limited understanding is the board will need to care about trademarks
>>>> in source code that has been contributed to OSGe (which is not a
>>>> requirement of participation). I expect they will only need to care in
>>>> the US (since that is where the organization is based) but that is up
>>>> to legal council, IANAL etc...
>>>>
>>>> It is relatively common for open source projects to be renamed due to TM
>>>> conflict. This is a service a software foundation can provide, apache
>>>> has strict management of trademarks, eclipse does a trademark check
>>>> prior to accepting a project into incubation etc... But it is not clear
>>>> cut - Debian for example refuses to include firefox as that name is
>>>> trademarked (and not "free" and reusable ),
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jody Garnett
>>>>
>>>> On 7 February 2015 at 17:03, Even Rouault <even.rouault at spatialys.com>
>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> (adding incubator@ as it is both of interest I think for OSGeo-Live &
>>>>> incubator)
>>>>>
>>>>> I will not argue about this particular case, but this does raise an
>>>>> interesting question about how we should handle trademark issues
>>>>> (perhaps this
>>>>> has been discussed in the past, so sorry if I come after the battle)
>>>>>
>>>>> The OSGeo incubation application questionnaire
>>>>> http://www.osgeo.org/incubator/process/application.html mentions:
>>>>> "Is the code free of patents, trademarks, and do you control the
>>>>> copyright? "
>>>>>
>>>>> It does not address clearly the issue of trademark of the *name of the
>>>>> project* (it mentions just the *code*).
>>>>> I'm not sure if there should be a policy regarding ownership of the
>>>>> trademark
>>>>> of the name of a project, but at least it could be asked if there's a
>>>>> trademark on the name, and who owns it (and in which countries...) ? As
>>>>> the
>>>>> below example shows, this can have impact on the future of the project.
>>>>> But
>>>>> this is likely complex.
>>>>> - What if someone from a random country comes and says "eh this project
>>>>> conflicts with my trademark in Foobarland" ? Which countries should
>>>>> OSGeo care
>>>>> about ? Or perhaps this is too complex and the only real answer to
>>>>> those questions is when you are assigned to a court ;-)
>>>>> - And even if the trademark is owned by someone/an entity which is
>>>>> strongly
>>>>> related to the project, things can evolve over time. So shouldn't the
>>>>> trademark be transfered to OSGeo control to guarantee fairness of use ?
>>>>> But
>>>>> that would mean that OSGeo would have to pay the costs of registration.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the record, I did the exercice of quick searching which OSGeo
>>>>> projects are
>>>>> trademarked in France ( http://bases-marques.inpi.fr/ ) and it *seems*
>>>>> (only a
>>>>> search by a specialist in I.P would confirm it) that only QGIS and
>>>>> GeoMajas are
>>>>> (and both have E.U. wide validity). (There are unrelated matches for
>>>>> Geotools,
>>>>> Marble and OSSIM). OSGeo itself isn't trademarked. And apparently
>>>>> MapTiler neither.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the incubating projects, gvSIG is trademarked (E.U wide). Unrelated
>>>>> matches
>>>>> for "the zoo project" and OTB.  Rasdaman is registered in Germany.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi everybody,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let me clarify the situation:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - The original MapTiler (python + wxWidgets) is discontinued and
>>>>>> unfortunately it failed as an open-source project in my eyes. The
>>>>>> software
>>>>>> attracted quite a lot of end users, but no 3rd party developers. There
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> not a single commit from any third-party ever to the MapTiler project
>>>>>> code
>>>>>> itself, probably because the graphical utility was used mostly by
>>>>>> non-programmers. The otherwise great project stalled for some time. I
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> not seen how to move it forward without any financial support, while
>>>>>> not being a student anymore - and it made me really sad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Since 2011, I work with my team on a completely new implementation
>>>>>> of an
>>>>>> efficient tiling utility, the new MapTiler usable both from the
>>>>>> command-line as well as from the graphical user interface, written in
>>>>>> C++
>>>>>> and QT. It is significantly faster, merges multiple files in different
>>>>>> srs,
>>>>>> handles correctly dateline crossing and world maps, tiles in
>>>>>> non-mercator
>>>>>> grids, it directly produces small and optimized jpg and pngs, it is
>>>>>> compatible with OGC WMTS, contains uploader to Amazon S3 and Google
>>>>>> Cloud
>>>>>> Storage, supports different layers on different zoom levels (see
>>>>>> http://goo.gl/TCrGtQ and other tutorials), and it comes with many
>>>>>> other new
>>>>>> features, with installers, regular updates, support and maintenance.
>>>>>> It runs on Win/Lin/Mac - see http://www.maptiler.com/ for more
>>>>>> information. With my colleagues we are trying to do our job as good
>>>>>> as we can. It is a complete rewrite of the original utility, fixing
>>>>>> design flaws and
>>>>>> implementation issues of both GDAL2Tiles and original MapTiler. To be
>>>>>> able
>>>>>> to support the utility and to work on new features we ask for a
>>>>>> license fee.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - There was no financial support from Google Summer of Code nor from
>>>>>> OSGeo
>>>>>> on the original MapTiler.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -  Both my Google SoC in 2007 and 2008 were on the GDAL2TIles
>>>>>> command-line
>>>>>> utility, lead by Howard.
>>>>>> My original GDAL2Tiles from 2007 is available at
>>>>>> http://www.klokan.cz/projects/gdal2tiles/ and the version from 2008 is
>>>>>> distributed together with GDAL library, with patches and some fixes,
>>>>>> mostly
>>>>>> from Evan.
>>>>>> As Even pointed out - I started to work on the MapTiler during August
>>>>>> 2008,
>>>>>> after the second SoC. BRGM mentioned in the code of GDAL2Tiles.py
>>>>>> supported
>>>>>> improvements of GDAL2Tiles, not MapTiler project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - As the sole author of MapTiler and the owner of the MapTiler
>>>>>> trademark I
>>>>>> would like to request complete removal of the MapTiler from the OSGeo
>>>>>> LiveDVD. I have prepared the existing .deb package as well as supplied
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> quickstart and installation scripts to the svn about 5 years back.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - If anybody is interested to revive my original open-source project
>>>>>> published under an open-source license, he is welcomed to do that -
>>>>>> under
>>>>>> the conditions of the original license, while preserving the original
>>>>>> copyright notice, and under the condition his fork of the project is
>>>>>> not anymore called MapTiler and does not use original graphical
>>>>>> elements and desktop icon of the original application.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - The existence of the two projects of the same name is confusing the
>>>>>> people and I want to avoid it. I hope you respect my decision. The old
>>>>>> MapTiler is dead, long live the MapTiler! ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - I continue to work on several other open-source projects and with my
>>>>>> team
>>>>>> I keep developing, contributing and improving on OL3Cesium, OpenLayers
>>>>>> V3,
>>>>>> WebGL Earth, EPSG.io, IIPImage, GDAL and other projects. See our
>>>>>> github and
>>>>>> blog for details: http://www.klokantech.com/.
>>>>>> Open-source is indeed very powerful and viable on components and I
>>>>>> can't imagine to live without it. Still, there are situations, where
>>>>>> it is simply
>>>>>> not applicable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am proud to be part of OSGeo and I am keen to continue to contribute
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the community in future. I admire and honor people like Frank or Evan
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> others. You have my true respect for what you do and what you have
>>>>>> achieved!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Petr Pridal, Ph.D.
>>>>>> Klokan Technologies GmbH
>>>>>>
>>>>>> P.S.
>>>>>> If anybody is interested in even more background of the evolution of
>>>>>> MapTiler you can read:
>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/maptiler/r9Xa8S_S4Z8/7pJoqKR1MM0J
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 9:24 PM, Cameron Shorter
>>>>>> <cameron.shorter at gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I've had a request from the MapTiler project to have it removed from
>>>>>>> OSGeo-Live.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've raised a ticket:
>>>>>>> https://trac.osgeo.org/osgeo/ticket/1467
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll look after updating the docs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cameron Shorter,
>>>>>>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>>>>>>> LISAsoft
>>>>>>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>>>>>>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Live-demo mailing list
>>>>>>> Live-demo at lists.osgeo.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/live-demo
>>>>>>> http://live.osgeo.org
>>>>>>> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Live_GIS_Disc
>>>>> --
>>>>> Spatialys - Geospatial professional services
>>>>> http://www.spatialys.com
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Incubator mailing list
>>>>> Incubator at lists.osgeo.org
>>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Incubator mailing list
>>>> Incubator at lists.osgeo.org
>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/incubator
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Cameron Shorter,
>>>> Software and Data Solutions Manager
>>>> LISAsoft
>>>> Suite 112, Jones Bay Wharf,
>>>> 26 - 32 Pirrama Rd, Pyrmont NSW 2009
>>>>
>>>> P +61 2 9009 5000,  W www.lisasoft.com,  F +61 2 9009 5099
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Board mailing list
>>>> Board at lists.osgeo.org
>>>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/board


-- 
Angelos Tzotsos
Remote Sensing Laboratory
National Technical University of Athens
http://users.ntua.gr/tzotsos

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