From willtemperley at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 02:30:27 2026
From: willtemperley at gmail.com (William Temperley)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 18:30:27 +0800
Subject: [PROJ] LLMs are killing this community
In-Reply-To: <CADRrdKsCVxApgGjkavznLFtnYAq2Po4kR=ibYz_nieF6GcPsbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADRrdKsCVxApgGjkavznLFtnYAq2Po4kR=ibYz_nieF6GcPsbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMegOARWxnJyTYHJDQonzpTN=B7PsCbP2pVLWtLv4JPMsxMfDg@mail.gmail.com>

To foster human engagement, perhaps PROJ could make itself
conceptually more accessible?

There could be a PROJ blog for example. I think there are a number of
articles just begging to be written, such as "Austrailia isn't where
you last put it".

Apart from being foundational, PROJ is really interesting, dealing
with natural phenomena like plate movement and the Glacial Isostatic
Adjustment.

Best,

Will Temperley

On Sat, 31 Oct 2026 at 17:50, Javier Jimenez Shaw via PROJ
<proj at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
> (email sent to GDAL and PROJ mailing lists. Yes, this is inconvenient, because each one will answer in their own one).
>
> Yes, it is happening.
>
> You probably noticed it. If not, just go to the archive https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/gdal-dev/ and see how many messages were one year ago.
>
> People is asking LLMs and not asking the community. We are sharing less. Each one (or at least a significant number) is being more in their silo... isolated. And that is not the way to make a community. To keep it alive.
>
> It is a problem, because the community is what drives and maintain these products.
>
> PROJ is more than 40 years old. GDAL more than 25. One key property of these products is its stability. We don't need quick development to compete in a capitalistic market. We don't play in that league. We don't need LLMs everywhere.
>
> We are losing maintainers, and the remaining ones are not extremely motivated. That is like cancer for these projects.
>
> So next time, instead of going blindly to your preferred LLM to ask something, come here, ask real humans, and help to keep this alive. Other people (including me) will read the answers and learn new things.
>
> Also before doing a PR ask here (this is nothing new) to see if it makes sense, if there is somebody else with the same problem/idea, to see if there is a better option.
>
> Enjoy talking with real humans. Even if you don't like to interact directly with people, you want them to be there. Contribute to keep this community alive.
>
> People is complaining that young people and children is only using social media, and not interacting with real humans face to face. This is the same, or worse. LLMs are killing our communities, and we cannot wait.
>
> Cheers
> Javier.
> _______________________________________________
> PROJ mailing list
> PROJ at lists.osgeo.org
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/proj

From willtemperley at gmail.com  Mon Nov  2 02:44:14 2026
From: willtemperley at gmail.com (William Temperley)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2026 18:44:14 +0800
Subject: [PROJ] LLMs are killing this community
In-Reply-To: <CAMegOARWxnJyTYHJDQonzpTN=B7PsCbP2pVLWtLv4JPMsxMfDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADRrdKsCVxApgGjkavznLFtnYAq2Po4kR=ibYz_nieF6GcPsbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMegOARWxnJyTYHJDQonzpTN=B7PsCbP2pVLWtLv4JPMsxMfDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMegOATqtcWDS5Lcd-mCQmTMMHJ9Rd6uQg-tde6HuYwwCqe_oQ@mail.gmail.com>

Though perhaps I should have run that reply through an LLM to correct
my mispelling of Australia, which is now indelibly recorded here.

This is I suspect something people don't like about public, searchable
mailing lists.

W

On Mon, 2 Nov 2026 at 18:30, William Temperley <willtemperley at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> To foster human engagement, perhaps PROJ could make itself
> conceptually more accessible?
>
> There could be a PROJ blog for example. I think there are a number of
> articles just begging to be written, such as "Austrailia isn't where
> you last put it".
>
> Apart from being foundational, PROJ is really interesting, dealing
> with natural phenomena like plate movement and the Glacial Isostatic
> Adjustment.
>
> Best,
>
> Will Temperley
>
> On Sat, 31 Oct 2026 at 17:50, Javier Jimenez Shaw via PROJ
> <proj at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
> >
> > (email sent to GDAL and PROJ mailing lists. Yes, this is inconvenient, because each one will answer in their own one).
> >
> > Yes, it is happening.
> >
> > You probably noticed it. If not, just go to the archive https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/gdal-dev/ and see how many messages were one year ago.
> >
> > People is asking LLMs and not asking the community. We are sharing less. Each one (or at least a significant number) is being more in their silo... isolated. And that is not the way to make a community. To keep it alive.
> >
> > It is a problem, because the community is what drives and maintain these products.
> >
> > PROJ is more than 40 years old. GDAL more than 25. One key property of these products is its stability. We don't need quick development to compete in a capitalistic market. We don't play in that league. We don't need LLMs everywhere.
> >
> > We are losing maintainers, and the remaining ones are not extremely motivated. That is like cancer for these projects.
> >
> > So next time, instead of going blindly to your preferred LLM to ask something, come here, ask real humans, and help to keep this alive. Other people (including me) will read the answers and learn new things.
> >
> > Also before doing a PR ask here (this is nothing new) to see if it makes sense, if there is somebody else with the same problem/idea, to see if there is a better option.
> >
> > Enjoy talking with real humans. Even if you don't like to interact directly with people, you want them to be there. Contribute to keep this community alive.
> >
> > People is complaining that young people and children is only using social media, and not interacting with real humans face to face. This is the same, or worse. LLMs are killing our communities, and we cannot wait.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Javier.
> > _______________________________________________
> > PROJ mailing list
> > PROJ at lists.osgeo.org
> > https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/proj

From lnicola at dend.ro  Mon Nov  2 02:46:17 2026
From: lnicola at dend.ro (=?UTF-8?Q?Lauren=C8=9Biu_Nicola?=)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2026 12:46:17 +0200
Subject: [PROJ] LLMs are killing this community
In-Reply-To: <CAMegOATqtcWDS5Lcd-mCQmTMMHJ9Rd6uQg-tde6HuYwwCqe_oQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADRrdKsCVxApgGjkavznLFtnYAq2Po4kR=ibYz_nieF6GcPsbQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMegOARWxnJyTYHJDQonzpTN=B7PsCbP2pVLWtLv4JPMsxMfDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMegOATqtcWDS5Lcd-mCQmTMMHJ9Rd6uQg-tde6HuYwwCqe_oQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b3ac70f5-6db8-4f9a-9533-e4cdd5b092bb@app.fastmail.com>



On Mon, Nov 2, 2026, at 12:44, William Temperley via PROJ wrote:
> Though perhaps I should have run that reply through an LLM to correct
> my mispelling of Australia, which is now indelibly recorded here.
>
> This is I suspect something people don't like about public, searchable
> mailing lists.

And your misspelling of misspelling too. Still reads better than an LLM message, don't worry about it :-).

Laurentiu

From j1 at jimenezshaw.com  Tue Nov  3 10:27:42 2026
From: j1 at jimenezshaw.com (Javier Jimenez Shaw)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2026 19:27:42 +0100
Subject: [PROJ] NAD83(2011) to NATRF2022 + NAPGD2022
Message-ID: <CADRrdKuxLb8NR3J2zaQnpH0ijBNTBUhFP_wapYNotZbtNjYNYw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi

I have problems with that particular operation for the Modernized NSRS
NAD83(2011) to NATRF2022 + NAPGD2022

NGS recently published the NADCON5 (or 6) grid files from NAD83(2011) to
NATRF2022
They are in my NSRS-2022-PROJ project.

The changes I am doing are in this branch:
https://github.com/jjimenezshaw/NSRS-2022-PROJ/tree/nad83-to-natrf-napgd

The problem comes from "ITRF2020 to NAD83(2011) (1)" and that NAPGD2022 is
interpolated in ITRF2020.
So PROJ is going from NAD83(2011) to ITRF2020, apply the geoid model, and
then from ITRF2020 to NATRF2022... ignoring the NADCON5 file. That is wrong.

Trying to fix it I made a concatenated operation from "NATRF2022 to
NAPGD2022", but it is not fixing it.
However, if I define explicitly "NATRF2022 to NAPGD2022" (not a
concatenated operation but an entry in the table grid_transformation) it
works.

What is the difference between the explicit transformation and the
concatenated operation?

If you need help to reproduce it, ask me directly. Otherwise this email
would be too long.

Note 1: NAD83(2011) to NATRF2022 (ellipsoidal) is working fine (no surprise)
Note 2: if the transformation is from NAD83(2011)+NAVD88 height, it is
working fine. The problem is apparently only from the 3D system.

Thank you
Javier.
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From lnicola at dend.ro  Wed Nov  4 00:18:58 2026
From: lnicola at dend.ro (=?UTF-8?Q?Lauren=C8=9Biu_Nicola?=)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2026 10:18:58 +0200
Subject: [PROJ] New GitHub setting for Copilot reviews
Message-ID: <6437b75b-e49b-420e-925c-44792e2ce6cf@app.fastmail.com>

Hello,

Just a quick FYI, GitHub has a new option under Copilot / Code review / "Block reviews requested with an external Copilot license". Any project that not appreciate LLM usage might want to enable it.

(cross-posted to GDAL/PROJ/QGIS)

Laurentiu
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From even.rouault at spatialys.com  Wed Nov  4 03:40:06 2026
From: even.rouault at spatialys.com (Even Rouault)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 12:40:06 +0100
Subject: [PROJ] Stepping out from PROJ PSC
Message-ID: <e8ee37d2-71e3-4227-a51d-a3844beb1b76@spatialys.com>

Hi,

I'm stepping out from my position of member of the PROJ PSC. I wish the 
project all the best for its future. I will only look from a distance 
but happy to try helping in case it would be needed.

Best regards,

Even

-- 
http://www.spatialys.com
My software is free, but my time generally not.
LLMs contribute to global warming and brain rot.
Let's guillotine them! "Ah ! ?a ira, ?a ira, ?a ira !"
Initiator of https://fuckaifoundation.org


From Jochem.Lesparre at kadaster.nl  Wed Nov  4 04:18:48 2026
From: Jochem.Lesparre at kadaster.nl (Lesparre, Jochem)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 12:18:48 +0000
Subject: [PROJ] Stepping out from PROJ PSC
In-Reply-To: <e8ee37d2-71e3-4227-a51d-a3844beb1b76@spatialys.com>
References: <e8ee37d2-71e3-4227-a51d-a3844beb1b76@spatialys.com>
Message-ID: <PA1P192MB32354A0823ED08963A9DBE58EF682@PA1P192MB3235.EURP192.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi Even,

It makes me sad to see you leave. Thanks for everything you have done for PROJ. I wish you the best.

Regards, Jochem


-----Original Message-----
From: PROJ <proj-bounces at lists.osgeo.org> On Behalf Of Even Rouault via PROJ
Sent: woensdag 4 november 2026 12:40
To: proj <proj at lists.osgeo.org>
Subject: [PROJ] Stepping out from PROJ PSC

Hi,

I'm stepping out from my position of member of the PROJ PSC. I wish the project all the best for its future. I will only look from a distance but happy to try helping in case it would be needed.

Best regards,

Even

--
http://www.spatialys.com/
My software is free, but my time generally not.
LLMs contribute to global warming and brain rot.
Let's guillotine them! "Ah ! ?a ira, ?a ira, ?a ira !"
Initiator of https://fuckaifoundation.org/

_______________________________________________
PROJ mailing list
PROJ at lists.osgeo.org
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/proj


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From kristian at evers.dev  Wed Nov  4 04:40:29 2026
From: kristian at evers.dev (Kristian Evers)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2026 12:40:29 +0000
Subject: [PROJ] Stepping out from PROJ PSC
In-Reply-To: <e8ee37d2-71e3-4227-a51d-a3844beb1b76@spatialys.com>
References: <e8ee37d2-71e3-4227-a51d-a3844beb1b76@spatialys.com>
Message-ID: <ZerNEefzcP6o1-jPSEO9gQMt1CmviuVq9w1TFjAmzCqiqJEFffMqiLMLsPTwVJcQPDYZK01ueBSx_qveoT8EE9nNre_nz2a54fkYZJ3Pzm4=@evers.dev>

Even,

That saddens me terribly. You are an invaluable asset for the project, the open source geospatial community and in recent years also the geodetic community. I hope we see you around from time to time!

All the best,
Kristian



On Wednesday, November 4th, 2026 at 13:10, Even Rouault via PROJ <proj at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm stepping out from my position of member of the PROJ PSC. I wish the
> project all the best for its future. I will only look from a distance
> but happy to try helping in case it would be needed.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Even
> 
> --
> http://www.spatialys.com
> My software is free, but my time generally not.
> LLMs contribute to global warming and brain rot.
> Let's guillotine them! "Ah ! ?a ira, ?a ira, ?a ira !"
> Initiator of https://fuckaifoundation.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PROJ mailing list
> PROJ at lists.osgeo.org
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/proj
> 

From alansnow21 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  4 05:26:23 2026
From: alansnow21 at gmail.com (Alan Snow)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2026 07:26:23 -0600
Subject: [PROJ] Stepping out from PROJ PSC
In-Reply-To: <ZerNEefzcP6o1-jPSEO9gQMt1CmviuVq9w1TFjAmzCqiqJEFffMqiLMLsPTwVJcQPDYZK01ueBSx_qveoT8EE9nNre_nz2a54fkYZJ3Pzm4=@evers.dev>
References: <e8ee37d2-71e3-4227-a51d-a3844beb1b76@spatialys.com>
 <ZerNEefzcP6o1-jPSEO9gQMt1CmviuVq9w1TFjAmzCqiqJEFffMqiLMLsPTwVJcQPDYZK01ueBSx_qveoT8EE9nNre_nz2a54fkYZJ3Pzm4=@evers.dev>
Message-ID: <CAGybdFS+hDsgd=geTybL5S1db2dvaNHA8SjJ7rPUCYmHdqhH=w@mail.gmail.com>

+1 Alan (seconding what Kristian said) - Sad day for the open source
geospatial community. Thank you for the wonderful contributions that you
have made.

On Wed, Nov 4, 2026, 6:50?AM Kristian Evers via PROJ <proj at lists.osgeo.org>
wrote:

> Even,
>
> That saddens me terribly. You are an invaluable asset for the project, the
> open source geospatial community and in recent years also the geodetic
> community. I hope we see you around from time to time!
>
> All the best,
> Kristian
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 4th, 2026 at 13:10, Even Rouault via PROJ <
> proj at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm stepping out from my position of member of the PROJ PSC. I wish the
> > project all the best for its future. I will only look from a distance
> > but happy to try helping in case it would be needed.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Even
> >
> > --
> > http://www.spatialys.com
> > My software is free, but my time generally not.
> > LLMs contribute to global warming and brain rot.
> > Let's guillotine them! "Ah ! ?a ira, ?a ira, ?a ira !"
> > Initiator of https://fuckaifoundation.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > PROJ mailing list
> > PROJ at lists.osgeo.org
> > https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/proj
> >
> _______________________________________________
> PROJ mailing list
> PROJ at lists.osgeo.org
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/proj
>
>
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