What is "is a qgis problem"? (it was Re: [Qgis-user] Scattergram with compiled qwt5.2.0)

[Micha Silver]

Hi Agus:

While I totally agree with your "bottom line" i.e.:

[quoted from below]

"I think that QGIS is not far from such an operational point and that
making an effort on reaching it rather than on developing newer tools for a
while would make a lot of sense... for users. Obviously, developers will do
what they will be willing to do. All what users can do is telling other 
users
what the situation is. "

your criticism might be a bit harsh in getting there.

The problem you raise here is one specific (external) plugin. That poor 
student who has to submit his project in 24 hr. is indeed caught in a 
bad situation. Still qgis devs should focus on core functionality, and 
stability, leaving the new not-fully-tested stuff to the plugin 
architecture.

Also...
 

Agustin Lobo wrote:

> I think this issue is equivalent to the one on having
> Mrsid and ecw support under linux. From
I don't think this comparison is correct. Support for mrsid and ecw is, 
I believe, a widely requested feature that should be considered *core 
functionality*.  With your help and encouragement, we had a simple gdal 
plugin on ubuntu 9.04, and hopefully that will soon be available on 9.10 
also, like it is on the OSGeo windows installer.

Regards,
Micha
> a developer point of view (Jurgen), the fact that plugin Scatter plot
> does not work because of a python-qwt5 problem is not "a qgis problem".
> But from the user perspective, anything making qgis not working properly
> or not fulfilling a set of minimum operational requirements must
> be "a qgis problem".
>
> In this particular case, if the situation is that there is no
> python-qwt5 package able to let a given plugin work, then either
> the qgis developers accept that making an specially-tuned binary 
> version of
> the python-qwt5 package is a TODO task, or the "qgis book of style of 
> python
> plugins"
> must state that no plugins should be made relying on that package, and 
> thus
> an alternative for the current Scatter plot plugin should be in the 
> agenda.
>
> In general terms, I think that the qgis developers should discuss and
> get to an agreement
> on whether the goal is having an operational package or a testbed
> for newer developments and proofs of concepts where reaching an
> operational reliability is not a main issue.
>
> Both options are valid, but they are different, and users must know the
> choice.
>
> I totally disagree with the comments posted by Tim Sutton and Paolo
> Cavallini few weeks ago:
>
> "> The counter side to the 'FOSS developers expect users to be compiling
>> > geeks' debate is that users always want things at no effort and now 
>  :-)
>
> Tim: agreed fully. Too often we have requests from users, too rarely we
> have help"
>
> Users must put their effort on using QGIS, and their satisfaction is
> the main reason for QGIS to exist. With no or few users, qgis will
> decay. And users do a lot of effort on using QGIS, as they often must 
> deal with
> problems that are not present in commercial software and sometimes 
> find, with
> frustration, that their processing chain gets interrupted
> in an step where qgis tools are not working (and the only answer they get
> is "this is solved in svn trunk". A pretty satisfactory answer for a 
> developer,
> but a totally devastating answer for an student with his/her exercise 
> to be due
> in 24h). For some users, this is the price to pay because they cannot 
> afford
> paying the licenses
> but for some others, having several alternatives of commercial licenses
> paid as campus licenses, this is the price they pay for actively 
> collaborating
> on a public domain tool which, they believe, will be better on the 
> long run.
> We must all acknowledge the contribution made by developers. We must all
> acknowledge the contribution made by of users.
>
> The question is reaching a point in which a minimal set of critical 
> operations
> are reliably and efficiently done by QGIS (independently of other 
> software such
> as GRASS: QGIS+GRASS is already operational, but this is because GRASS 
> reached
> operational status 20 years ago). From this point on, people having
> stable jobs (i.e., GIS technicians at universities, professors, 
> researchers...)
> will put a significant part of their paid time on debugging, enhancing 
> and
> extending QGIS. This is the case of R, which is, i my opinion, the 
> paramount
> example of success of public domain software, at least in science. I 
> do not
> know the exact numbers, but I think that despite the significant 
> direct funding,
> the most important source of funding for R comes from paid working time
> invested by academic personnel with stable jobs).
>
> I'm working on a web page in which I will propose a set of critical tasks
> to be accomplished by a GIS software, along with an score of 
> operationality and
> comments for the specific case of QGIS on the different OS for which 
> binary
> versions exist. Hopefully other users will add their opinions.
> In an equivalent way, I'll try to set up another page for the plugins, 
> so that
> users can have a fast check on the degree of operationality of a 
> giving plugin
> prior to actually installing it.
>
> I think that QGIS is not far from such an operational point and that
> making an effort on reaching it rather than on developing newer tools 
> for a
> while would make a lot of sense... for users. Obviously, developers 
> will do
> what they will be willing to do. All what users can do is telling 
> other users
> what the situation is.
>
> Hopefully this message reaches enough "controversiality degree" for 
> you to
> comment during the hackfest
>
> Have fun!
>
> Agus
>
> Jürgen E. Fischer wrote:
>> Hi Agus,
>>
>> On Tue, 27. Oct 2009 at 17:42:28 +0100, Agustin Lobo wrote:
>>> Hmm... all I get is that building of qt3 should be avoided. Perhaps I
>>> should wait until a general solution is set, perhaps during
>>> your hackfest? Hopefully...
>>
>> I doubt that it is a qgis problem at all.  You probably just need proper
>> python-qwt5 packages.
>>
>>
>> Jürgen
>>
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