<div dir="ltr">I do appreciate the good advice to use DBMS, I am doing that too and understand the advantages. I would never consider using a geopackage if I thought that multiple people would want to edit them at the same time. But that is not the case and that is not my problem. Sometimes, I just want to keep geodata in a file on a network share and run the risk (in my case insignificant) that the file will be corrupted by multi user access. This I can do with shapefiles, but unlike the shapefiles, I have to set the read-only flag on the geopackages stored on the network to get decent rendering speed, without ever wanting to edit the files. I think wanting to use file based storage for geodata in a networked environment is not unreasonable, even if there is some danger of corruption. All file based formats are probably subject to that risk, but I repeat, that issue is not what I am talking about, just the rendering speed of data in a geopackage that is not set to read-only.<div>I suspect that there is no solution and that I will just have to live with this - as I have done for years. It is just a bit annoying. And I am surprised how little it is discussed.<br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><font color="#000000">Árni </font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 13:46, Sadowski Jarosław via QGIS-User <<a href="mailto:qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org">qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg-1341851179974007423">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>+1<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Don’t use file formats to edit by multiple users. I was occurring some critical problems, as for example disappearing objects from database or LOOOOONG read for first time
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">☹</span><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Use PostgreSQL or other solutions like:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://merginmaps.com/" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">Mergin Maps: Collect, Store and Analyze your Geo-Data Easily</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://gis--support-pl.translate.goog/gis-box/?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">GIS Support » GIS.Box (gis--support-pl.translate.goog)</span></a><span lang="EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial"><font face="Calibri"><strong>_________________________________</strong></font></p>
<p style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(16,43,77)"><font style="color:rgb(16,43,77)" face="Calibri"><strong style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(16,43,77)">Jarosław Sadowski</strong><br><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:rgb(16,43,77)"><span style="color:rgb(16,43,77)">Kierownik Zespołu ds. Ochrony Środowiska
| </span></span></font><em style="font-family:Calibri;color:rgb(87,87,87)"><span style="color:rgb(16,43,77)">Biuro Strategii i Planowania, Projektowania i Inżynierii Podprogramu Kolejowego</span></em><br><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:rgb(16,43,77)"><em>Environmental Protection Team Leader
</em></span><span style="font-family:Calibri;color:rgb(16,43,77)"><em>|
Railway Subprogramme Strategy & Planning, Design & Engineering Department</em><br></span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Calibri;color:rgb(16,43,77)">e: <a style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Calibri;color:rgb(16,43,77)" href="mailto:jaroslaw.sadowski@cpk.pl" target="_blank">jaroslaw.sadowski@cpk.pl</a><br>m:
+48 532 720 230</span></p></td></tr>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> QGIS-User <<a href="mailto:qgis-user-bounces@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">qgis-user-bounces@lists.osgeo.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bo Victor Thomsen via QGIS-User<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 16, 2023 2:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Qgis-user] [EXTERNAL] Re: Geopackage slow on NAS if not read-only<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:rgb(255,235,156)"><span style="color:black">UWAGA: Ta wiadomość pochodzi spoza CPK Sp. z o.o. Proszę pomóż zadbać o bezpieczeństwo naszej organizacji. Zastanów się, zanim otworzysz link lub załącznik.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p>When any user on your network access the geopackage layer and (maybe unnecessarily) puts the layer in edit mode, there will be created 2 extra files in the same directory as the gpkg file resides in. And QGIS behaves different regarding
<i>both</i> read and write operations when these file are present. This is probably the explanation of the longer reading times, even if nobody actually is editing the layer. When the user stops the editing mode for the layer, the 2 files disappear.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>You can check if this is the explanation:<u></u><u></u></p>
<ol start="1" type="1">
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Open the gpkg layer in read mode on one computer, check the access speed of the same layer on
<i>another</i> computer. <u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">
Set the layer in edit mode on the first computer, check the access speed to the layer on the second computer<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">
Revert the edit mode on the first computer, check the access speed to the layer on the second computer.<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am guessing, that situations 1 and 3 are fast, while situation 2 is slow.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>First of all: Never, ever try to implement some kind of multi-user editing on a file based format, where the file resides on a networked drive. It will never, ever work reliably. At some point 2 users will try to edit the same layer at the same time and
it will go kaboom (I can read from your mails that you are aware about this). This goes for - probably - every file based format on a network drive.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Secondly: What about making the gpkg file read-only at the network share level for most of the users. And only granting write access to the gpkg file for certain users that are instructed in
<i>not</i> setting the layer in edit mode unless it's strictly necessary ? <u></u><u></u></p>
<p>The best solution: Install Postgres/PostGIS on your NAS <u></u><u></u></p>
<pre>Med venlig hilsen / Best regards<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><u></u> <u></u></pre>
<pre>Bo Victor Thomsen<u></u><u></u></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Den 16-03-2023 kl. 13:49 skrev Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you for the various responses. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Let me be clear that what I am griping about is not the locking aspect that would allow multiple users to edit without conflict. I fully understand that the geopackage is not safe for that, nor is the shapefile and perhaps also the file
geodatabase. In my case, the likelihood of two people wanting to edit the same geopackage is negligible, so I take my chances. My only gripe is the rendering speed of larger geopackages on a shared network, if they are not set specifically to read-only. That
is not a problem with the shapefile and I think probably not with a file geodatabase. I am a long time user of geopackages in a networked environment and I will continue to use them - they are great - there is just this problem of rendering speed over a network.<br clear="all">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Árni </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 12:33, Sebastian Gutwein <<a href="mailto:bas@rdgland.com" target="_blank">bas@rdgland.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This is all beyond my expertise but I have also struggled with the effective use of gpkg’s. In my case over google drive. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Here is what SQLite (the underlying software for gpkgs) says about using a SQLite database on a network:
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqlite.org%2Fuseovernet.html&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gF5jBExKrp2Hlks%2FQEHefiiG0FJFhqAG8fJ0VxBs4Kc%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://www.sqlite.org/useovernet.html</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I hope that someday someone implements a system that allows this to work efficiently as gpkgs are better in many respects than shapefiles. Perhaps Geodiff could be part of that solution.
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FMerginMaps%2Fgeodiff&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=bcngOeZeGv1iT%2BEEOV2Vtf3%2FZRXxYLBvgRuX0SMFOdI%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://github.com/MerginMaps/geodiff</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 8:04 AM Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User <<a href="mailto:qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Jorge <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I understand what you are pointing at and I use databases such as Postgres/PostGIS also with good results. The thing is that working with data in files sometimes has advantages and that is certainly how shapefiles have been used. The geopackage
has been suggested as a replacement for the shapefile in the context of regular QGIS usage without any caveat saying that geopackages only replace the storage and transfer role of shapefiles and that geopackages should not be used for editing in a shared environment,
as is perfectly possible with shapefiles and widely practiced. Not all users have access to database systems such as Postgres. I'm just looking for some clarity on best practices for the common scenario of working with QGIS using file based data in a network
environment.<br clear="all">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Árni</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 11:47, Jorge Gustavo Rocha via QGIS-User <<a href="mailto:qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p>Hi,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>For data storage and manipulation databases are suitable. Files are not. <u></u>
<u></u></p>
<p>Geopackages are wonderful to transfer data between systems or to archive an entire project (snapshot of data, styles and the project itself).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>Jorge<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 16/03/23 11:30, Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you Jarosław. Isn't it strange that this was discussed 5 years ago and SMB file sharing is very common? Would a linux based NAS be able to use another protocol? What are my options for file based data sharing in QGIS? Abandoning geopackages
is not a realistic option for me, but I could get a different kind of NAS unit, if that helps, what kind then? What amazes me is how little I see this discussed. There was a message in this thread this morning from Thomas Struller, but I am not sure it is
about the same root problem, maybe Thomas can elaborate. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Should this perhaps be discussed in another forum, closer to the development of geopackage/sqlite?<br clear="all">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Árni Geirsson</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 09:52, Sadowski Jarosław <<a href="mailto:jaroslaw.sadowski@cpk.pl" target="_blank">jaroslaw.sadowski@cpk.pl</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Long story short: gpkg is bad idea for network drives as SMB/NAS etc</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Sources:<br>
</span><a href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqlite.org%2Fwal.html%23advantages&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vrWFTUkAozdYRmNNtVRiMz5YiGTzAso2UQDgEzkzr6w%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">Write-Ahead
Logging (sqlite.org)</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fr-spatial%2Fsf%2Fissues%2F628&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=aC2PYy3vqIWzu3XXWMjhggZawmN9dXQcunqObizOQNY%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">writing
gpkg and sqlite on samba shares fails · Issue #628 · r-spatial/sf · GitHub</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p><strong><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(61,60,63)">_________________________________</span></strong><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(61,60,63)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><strong><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(16,43,77)">Jarosław Sadowski</span></strong><span style="font-size:9pt;color:rgb(16,43,77)"><br>
Kierownik Zespołu ds. Ochrony Środowiska | <em><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Biuro Strategii i Planowania, Projektowania i Inżynierii Podprogramu Kolejowego</span></em></span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(16,43,77)"><br>
</span><em><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(16,43,77)">Environmental Protection Team Leader | Railway Subprogramme Strategy & Planning, Design & Engineering Department</span></em><span style="font-size:9pt;color:rgb(16,43,77)"><br>
e: <a href="mailto:jaroslaw.sadowski@cpk.pl" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(16,43,77)">jaroslaw.sadowski@cpk.pl</span></a><br>
m: +48 532 720 230</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(16,43,77)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:5pt;color:rgb(87,87,87)">Centralny Port Komunikacyjny Sp. z o.o. z siedzibą w Warszawie,
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> QGIS-User <<a href="mailto:qgis-user-bounces@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">qgis-user-bounces@lists.osgeo.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 16, 2023 10:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:jhubbslist@att.net" target="_blank">jhubbslist@att.net</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL] Re: [Qgis-user] Geopackage slow on NAS if not read-only</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border:1pt solid rgb(156,101,0);padding:2pt" id="m_-1341851179974007423m_-3721556285310908744m_-91705260448882375m_5292080438416008098m_-2869550827560755875m_448025373283784848m_-6768445286251198089footer">
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<span style="color:black">UWAGA: Ta wiadomość pochodzi spoza CPK Sp. z o.o. Proszę pomóż zadbać o bezpieczeństwo naszej organizacji.
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Zastanów się, zanim otworzysz link lub załącznik.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Yes, as far as I know, the NAS unit uses SMB as the file sharing protocol. I used another NAS from QNAP before this one, also using SMB and with the same problem.
I thought pretty much all of the Linux based NAS units were using SMB and if that is the problem, it should be widespread, but I don't see any signs of that. Is SMB a problem for geopackage?
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I did a quick test in QGIS: A dataset of 178.000 line features is rendered in about 1 second from a read only geopackage. When I remove the read only flag, it
is rendered in about 5 seconds.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">If I store the geopackage on the local hard drive, the problem disappears, read-write or read-only does not matter.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I have had suspicions about SMB being part of the problem but I don't know enough about file access deep down in the operating system to understand it.<br clear="all">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:black">Árni Geirsson</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 01:45, jhubbslist--- via QGIS-User <</span><a href="mailto:qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank"><span lang="EN-US">qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org</span></a><span lang="EN-US">>
wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Árni -</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Are you using SMB/CIFS to access this NAS, and are you using wifi or Ethernet to connect to it?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">- Jeff
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On 3/15/23 3:30 PM, Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hello all QGIS and geopackage users.
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I store my geopackages on a Synology RackStation NAS unit, like all other documents that are kept on a shared drive in the office. For larger datasets, the rendering
is very slow, unless I open the properties dialog for the file in Windows and check the read only box. After that, the features are rendered blazingly fast. Nothing else is changed to see the dramatic difference in the rendering speed. Luckily, I don't need
to edit many of the larger datasets, such as road networks and elevation contours and the geopackage can be kept read only. Shapefiles are not affected.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">What explains this and does anyone know how to solve the problem? </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Do other users experience this?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Árni Geirsson</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<pre>Jorge Gustavo Rocha<u></u><u></u></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from a phone. Amazing! But possibly garbled. Sebastian Gutwein Regenerative Design Group 1 Chevalier Ave Greenfield MA
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<pre>_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>QGIS-User mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org" target="_blank">QGIS-User@lists.osgeo.org</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>List info: <a href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.osgeo.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fqgis-user&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353712104%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mW4NbdtL2GFA1o2wNdAzIeEra7oa6XFo010WXMpypvU%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Unsubscribe: <a href="https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.osgeo.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fqgis-user&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353712104%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mW4NbdtL2GFA1o2wNdAzIeEra7oa6XFo010WXMpypvU%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-user</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
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