<div dir="ltr">I am excited about the move to discourse and the possibilities that it opens up. I am concerned and sad to hear so many voices upset about the move. I hope the transition goes well and we don't lose too many voices. <div>-Bas</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 12:26 AM Adam Nielsen via QGIS-User <<a href="mailto:qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org">qgis-user@lists.osgeo.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">> I didn't see it coming honestly. Make it hard for them so only the<br>
> best ones can join us?<br>
<br>
Not quite - make asking questions take more effort than doing your own<br>
research, so lazy people are encouraged to find their own answers<br>
before asking. It's not about excluding people, it's about minimising<br>
the types of questions that could be solved by looking at the<br>
documentation or by doing a web search.<br>
<br>
> > In my own experience, if it's too easy for people to ask questions,<br>
> > then they tend to do so before doing their own research.<br>
> <br>
> Don't you think it is already the case. Moderators everywhere are<br>
> doing this job to remind people to just do their homework before<br>
> asking.<br>
<br>
Yes and this is my argument exactly. Those places make it too easy for<br>
lazy people to ask questions, and so you end up with moderators<br>
spending large amounts of time reminding people of basic things. In my<br>
opinion, instead of bringing in more moderators, it is better to reduce<br>
the amount of these low-effort questions.<br>
<br>
> Would you want to make life harder for those who still want to learn, <br>
> but just don't get the mailing list stuff?<br>
<br>
It is very easy to subscribe to a mailing list. If you can't figure<br>
that out, I think you will have no hope understanding QGIS. But it is<br>
not about making it hard or complicated, it is making it so that people<br>
are encouraged to do at least a little work on their own before asking<br>
questions.<br>
<br>
> From my experience, stupid questions are either not answered, or very <br>
> gently refocused on the good way of asking questions, which is also <br>
> something I like in our communities.<br>
<br>
That is true, but it seems this list does not get very many questions<br>
like that. If we start to get a lot of them, the community's attitude<br>
could change.<br>
<br>
> > This is why generally speaking, it's often better to add some<br>
> > hurdles in before people can ask questions, such as figuring out<br>
> > how to subscribe to an e-mail list.<br>
> <br>
> This is a radical point of view. Another option is to make them pass <br>
> through helpers that reminds them to search before asking. Something <br>
> positive, like when you create an issue in gitlab and the UI gently <br>
> propose you existing similar questions when you start typing.<br>
<br>
That is fine too, as long as people cannot ignore it and just keep<br>
typing their simple question.<br>
<br>
Look at the Microsoft support forums for example. They are next to<br>
useless, because it is so easy to post questions. There are hundreds<br>
of questions asking the same thing, and almost as many "answers" by<br>
people who have no idea what they are talking about, but are trying to<br>
be helpful by suggesting something that worked for them once when they<br>
had a completely different problem.<br>
<br>
So although their forums are easily searchable, it is incredibly rare<br>
to get a usable answer from them because the posts are of such low<br>
quality and often outright wrong.<br>
<br>
Contrast that to StackExchange. Yes, the Q&A format is limited,<br>
however by removing low-effort posts and incorrect answers, their<br>
content is consistently high quality and extremely useful. Many times<br>
I have done a web search and found my answer on a StackExchange site.<br>
<br>
Perhaps these are two extremes and the best solution is somewhere in<br>
the middle, but hopefully it at least explains the reasons behind my<br>
arguments.<br>
<br>
> > If you still think Discourse is the way to go, I would suggest<br>
> > running it in parallel with the e-mail list for a few months, and<br>
> > compare how many questions get answered there vs here. <br>
> <br>
> We can't mirror with both sides being written. If we go this way, we <br>
> would all have to follow both channels.<br>
<br>
I think it would be a mistake to switch entirely in one go. I am not<br>
saying we run both permanently, just temporarily, to give it a trial<br>
run and see how it goes. This will give the list users time to try out<br>
Discourse and see how it goes. Many of the list people will likely set<br>
up Discourse to work like a mailing list anyway, so they won't have to<br>
follow both channels - everything will come into the same inbox.<br>
<br>
If Discourse works, then as more and more questions are asked there,<br>
fewer questions will be asked on the lists, and perhaps at some point<br>
they can be turned off and nobody will even notice.<br>
<br>
I am reminded of the recent Reddit debacle, where management forced<br>
their changes onto their community of volunteers, and as a result, a<br>
large majority of them left the community entirely. It does seem like<br>
there is a similar push here, to move everyone to Discourse whether we<br>
like it or not.<br>
<br>
And that is fine, I am not paying for the servers, but if having a<br>
helpful community is of value to the project, it is probably best to<br>
take things slowly and give people a chance to adjust, rather than to<br>
dictate what is happening.<br>
<br>
> Older ones will stay in mailing lists, Users will try Discourse,<br>
> community is split in half.<br>
<br>
Remember the community being split in half, is exactly the same as half<br>
the community leaving because they do not like the change.<br>
<br>
> I remind you that the issue is that we do not have any plan at osgeo<br>
> to provide a mailman 3 solution. And new users just don't use mailing <br>
> lists.<br>
<br>
That is fine, I have no problem with it. I just think it would be wise<br>
to trial the new solution before forcing everyone onto it, and to keep<br>
the possibility open of revisiting Mailman 3 if it turns out that<br>
Discourse is not working. If you trial Discourse and it ends up<br>
working out really well, well then there's no problem!<br>
<br>
> Clearly if Discourse doesn't make it for PSC and user lists, after <br>
> correct communication and after the transition period, we'll discuss<br>
> it again.<br>
<br>
By then you will probably have lost all the "old users" though, so it<br>
may be too late to reverse course.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Adam.<br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">___________________________<br><div dir="ltr"><span>Sebastian "Bas* " Gutwein</span></div><div><span><span>*rhymes with Josh <br></span></span></div><div><span><span><br></span></span></div>Regenerative Design Group<br>1 Chevalier Ave<br>Greenfield, Ma 01301<br>Web: <a href="http://regenerativedesigngroup.com" target="_blank">regenerativedesigngroup.com</a><br>(631) 241-1018<br><br><div dir="ltr"><i><span><span>Look close, think big, make change. </span></span></i></div><div dir="ltr"><span></span></div></div></div>