[Webcom] Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Translated web site content

Sat Feb 24 11:42:13 EST 2007

I was just saying that if you think a current English page is
inadequate, then let webcom members discuss changing it.

On 2/24/07, Arnulf Christl <arnulf.christl at wheregroup.com> wrote:
> Hi German Local Chapter to-be,
> maybe you are interested to follow this language/content/translation
> discussion. Feel free to request for a translator role for the OSGeo CMS,
> we are in need of competent people.
>
> On Sat, February 24, 2007 00:56, Tyler Mitchell wrote:
> > On 23-Feb-07, at 9:59 AM, Jason Birch wrote:
> >
> >> Agreed.  Translation is a different role than content creation, and
> >> all "pages" should be semantically equivalent regardless of the
> >> language they are being presented in.
>
> The problem being that the technical "role" translator cannot control
> semantic content. Anybody who has translator permissions can produce any
> kind of crap. The only way we can ensure consistency is to have
> conspicuous peer review - just like Daniel did right now.
>
> >> I don't mind these two roles being held by the same people if
> >> that's been OK'd by WebCom or the "owner" of a particular section
> >> of the site,
>
> I am ignorant of any section "owner" (with or without quotes).
>
> >> but new content or changes to the meaning of existing
> >> pages need to follow our guidelines, and be communicated to the
> >> translations group for synchronisation.
>
> I am ignorant of a translations group but support this idea (if that was a
> motion to form one I second it).
>
> >> I disagree that there should be different content for different
> >> languages.  These can be maintained in the local chapter areas.
> >> Hmm.  It might make sense to have a link to the appropriate local
> >> chapter on the main page (contradicting himself)
> >
> > Arnulf,
> > Can you tell us why your translation of the home page is so different
> > from our English one? i.e. http://www.osgeo.org/startseite
>
> Hi,
> the /startseite is a compilation of the first five slides of a German
> language OSGeo presentation that I carry around and preach to anybody who
> can't escape me in time. I put that on the front page because I did not
> like the English language main page. Yes, yet another bad idea (c) by 7.
> Please point me to the content development body so that it can approve
> changes and send it over to the translation group. ((Heck, thats both me
> yet again?!))
>
> > If there are better ways to do our main page then perhaps we can roll
> > the kinds of changes you made in Deutsch back into the English version.
>
> Thank you for trusting in my good faith. I have done a fair amount of
> translation and I always, always end up with different copies because I
> cannot separate creating and translating. It is a waste of time to
> translate something that is either bad or out of date or both. The English
> main page imnsho is both bad and out of date. No offence meant but it is
> not exaclty inviting, is it?
>
> What I did is to actually describe in normal language what the core areas
> of OSGeo are, starting off with the software, followed by education and
> then public geodata (the links point to the corresponding Wiki pages). The
> next paragraph describes what this portal is all about and what it will
> offer in the future (don't ask me how I can know that).
>
> The last section describes how one can become a member (Werden Sie
> Mitglied =literally= Become You member). At this point I am waiting for
> the miraculous membership application form and coordinate input dialog and
> at that point I usually fall asleep and dream of the member WFS and WMS
> map...
>
> Before I did /startseite I had already translated
> http://www.osgeo.org/content/foundation/about.html into
> http://www.osgeo.org/ueber_uns (über=about, uns=us) English to German 1:1.
> Apart from looking ugly (no structure, just a square block of text) the
> English text does not really say anything much. I do not like this one for
> example:
>
> "OSGeo is still a nascent organization and in the process of taking final
> shape."
>
> Sounds like we are not ready yet. When will we be? My connotation to
> "final shape" is "six feet under".
>
> "While the initial membership and Board of Directors has been formed, the
> foundation's governance model is undergoing review and discussion."
>
> Hopefully this will never change, constant review ensures good quality.
>
> Anyway, I dutyfully translated all of this 1:1 into German, sometimes it
> just takes a few more words to say the same thing in German as it is a
> more technical and exacting language than English.
>
> Then I added a paragraph that mentions the GAV e.V. which is developing
> into the German language bridge head to OSGeo (Local Chapter to-be). As a
> reminder: The FOSSGIS conference committee has transfered €10k to the GAV
> e.V. (conference profits of past years) to be used for OSGeo related
> activities in Germany. OSGeo "main" is never going to see this money but
> it will be spent following OSGeo's mission. Has this sunk in at all? I am
> not sure. I remember someone implying that we would try to do things
> "against" OSGeo "main". Hmmm. OK, this is getting way too complicated for
> one email and will have to be addressed by other committees.
>
> Do you see what my problem is? I just want to translate one page and end
> up discussing local chapters and OSGeo governance. I will probably have to
> either stop to develop OSGeo or stop to translate content. But if we do
> that we will never even get started to have multilingual content. One
> reason why I was so adamant to activate the language buttons...
>
> Back to this one:
>
> >> Agreed.  Translation is a different role than content creation, and
> >> all "pages" should be semantically equivalent regardless of the
> >> language they are being presented in.
>
> This is true and not true. Language is a lot more complex and difficult
> than seems at first glance ((please bear with me sounding like a preacher
> and just attribute it to my general lowly nature)). A similar problem
> applies to Wikipedia, there is de. and en. and. so. on. - plus they have
> Commons and Wikimedia and and and. Know about that? Have a look, maybe it
> is inspiring:
>
> http://wikimedia.org/
> http://www.wikipedia.org/
>
> from there go to the English and the German Wikipedia and so on.
>
> In my understanding the OSGeo Foundation best matches:
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home
>
> and this splits into:
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Hauptseite
> ...
>
> Last but not least there are violent differences in culture, legal and law
> all round the world. We are very lucky to have such tight genetic bounds
> between German, English and French - compared to Chinese or Egyptian they
> are almost identical. Still lots of things simply do not translate, lets
> take the very first term that stopped me short: "Foundation"
>
> Look at the long list of translations there are:
> http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&sectHdr=on&spellToler=on&search=Foundation&relink=on
>
> But not one of them is "eingetragener Verein" (e.V.) which would be the
> German term that we would use to describe what OSGeo is:
> http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&lang=de&searchLoc=0&cmpType=relaxed&sectHdr=on&spellToler=on&search=Verein&relink=on
>
> Lots of fodder to chew on. All the same I am positive that all different
> language versions should transport the same OSGeo mission and message.
> Translators should not create deviating content until we have resolved a
> process. At the same time I am eager to get other languages running and if
> this means that they take over an outdated English version I really don't
> care too much.
>
> I was very reluctant to approve the formation of the OSGeo China Chapter
> because they surely must have different content in some respect or else
> they will just be turned off. Anybody following what happens to
> http://zh.wikipedia.org/ every now and then will know what I mean.
>
> Hope some of this makes sense.
>
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Arnulf Christl
> http://www.wheregroup.com
>
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