[OSGeo-Discuss] Costly FOSS4Gs
Dirk Frigne
dirk.frigne at geosparc.com
Tue Oct 17 03:15:17 PDT 2017
Hi Ravi,
To use a popular Nobel prise winning word "nudging":
I think that the main task of the board (aside to take as a team the
legal responsability for the OSGeo foundation) is to *listen* to the
(NNN) members and 'nudge' them carefully so they will the best of
themselves for the community.
A good functioning board should 'feel' what the community wants, and
only interfere when self organising is not resulting in improving the
organisation as a whole.
my2c
Dirk.
On 17-10-17 06:20, Ravi Kumar wrote:
> Hi Jody,
>
> "While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like the
> idea of member involvement even more."
>
> How do you wish to realize this.
> Do you think that 'Charter member' vs 'Ordinary Lister/User/Member'..
> the later merits more..
> THEN
> Why bother and have a special classification as 'Charter Member'...
>
> Cheers
> Ravi Kumar
>
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Jody Garnett <jody.garnett at gmail.com
> <mailto:jody.garnett at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I am uncomfortable with the five star presentation you outline.
> FOSS4G is a open source tech conference that mixes things up in a
> great creative melting pot, just like our community. Limiting foss4g
> to just an industry or academic event would sell it short.
>
> While I recognize Arnulf’s words, I wish we could find another
> source of funds taking pressure off the conference committee and
> freeing the organization to use the event more effectively for
> advocacy.
> — -
> Ravi I am going to take your second question as wondering what
> greater role our charter members can play?
>
> In this case I am not sure, and need to listen to others - what
> would you like to see charter members do?
>
> Right now we have an inclusive setup where anyone can join or
> organization, take part in a local chapter or a committee. By
> stepping up as a member, our organization is open to anyone willing
> to take on responsibility with passion and enthusiasm ... with no
> requirement to be a charter member.
>
> While I like the idea of greater charter member involvement, I like
> the idea of member involvement even more.
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 7:16 PM Ravi Kumar
> <manarajahmundry2015 at gmail.com
> <mailto:manarajahmundry2015 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi Vicky and all my OSGeo listers and particularly those who are
> following this thread,
> +1 .. OSGeo has blossomed since that meeting in Chicago (2006)
> attended by some, and Markus Netteler.
> You have FOSS4G Choises now.. Pick, that suites your budget, and
> philosophy (If you prefer not to see FOSS4G as 5*)..
>
> We depend on the collective wisdom of the board.. We the charter
> should never tire in Nudging the board with our views.
>
> Another question to Contenders to the Board:
> Wish a day will come when the Charter can play a more important
> role than breaking it's sleep walk, to vote now and then.
>
> Cheers
>
> Ravi Kumar
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 8:38 PM, Vicky Vergara
> <vicky at georepublic.de <mailto:vicky at georepublic.de>> wrote:
>
> Hello Ravi:
>
> I had the opportunity to attend and to make a presentation
> on FOSS4G Korea, afterwards, I also made a protestation on
> FOSS4G Tokyo. That was on 2015, and was the same year I was
> also elected to be a charter member on OSGeo. This trip was
> very educational for me, as I got to know more about OSGeo,
> with the international event and with the local event.
>
> Next year, 2016, even that it would have been great to go to
> FOSS4G Bonn, given budgets constraints, I opted to go to
> FOSS4G Asia instead. Lots of students from Asia had
> participated on OSGeo-GSoC program, and I wanted a close
> contact with them. The contact was so close that, Rohith
> Reddy, student from IIIT in Hyderabad and ex-OSGeo-GSoC
> student, this year acted as mentor and went to the GSoC
> mentor summit representing OSGeo.
>
> This year for FOSS4G Boston, OSGeo, had a travel grant to
> which I did not apply, I preferred to go to FOSS4G Argentina
> (Starts next week), but I did registered and attended the
> code-sprint (using IRC and jitsi for video).
> About why Argentina, I saw it as an opportunity to
> communicate the spirit of OSGeo on my mother tongue, further
> more, I arranged my trip tohave a 22hr stay in Perú, where
> they are starting to create a local chapter, and I hope to
> meet some OSGeo member(s).
>
> I also consider FOSS4G as an outreach event, and call it:
> subconsciously, by accident, by preference, I've being going
> to the small FOSS4G events after the first one where I
> learned so much. If you think about it, by not going to the
> international one, and going to the small FOSS4G, I have
> been spreading the word to the people that can not afford
> the trip-accommodation-registration costs for the main
> FOSS4G, and maybe someone else, will use the travel grant,
> can go learn more about OSGeo on the main international event.
>
>
> Vicky
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Steven Feldman
> <shfeldman at gmail.com <mailto:shfeldman at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Ravi
>
> This could be misinterpreted as some criticism of the
> volunteers who have staged outstanding FOSS4G events in
> the last years or even of the attendees who are able to
> afford to attend. I hope that is not the case?
>
> I’m not going to comment further on the challenges of
> hosting a 1000 person conference and the associated
> costs, I think Jeff has summed this up well. This
> discussion has gone round the conference, board and
> discuss lists for several years. If we want a large
> event we will have to accept the costs, the ticket price
> is typically a lot less than the travel, accommodation
> and meal costs that “out of country” visitors incur.
>
> The answer, IMO, is to encourage the growth of regional
> and national FOSS4G to enable lower cost access and to
> extend our outreach. I have seen little or no evidence
> presented to support the idea that local and regional
> events need funding from the centre but if a case can be
> made then the board should give that consideration
> and/or delegate that responsibility to the conference
> committee
>
> Let’s celebrate the success of our global events and
> their attendees who do a lot more than “hang out”. These
> events, through their generous sponsors, provide a lot
> of the funds for the OSGeo board to use in outreach,
> code sprints and other activities
> ______
> Steven
>
>
>> On 16 Oct 2017, at 07:59, Ravi Kumar
>> <manarajahmundry2015 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:manarajahmundry2015 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi List,
>> happy to note that 'FOSS4G being Costly/Unaffordable',
>> is discussed.
>> To make it fun, spice is added on the TERM HANGOUT..
>>
>> May be the next board will have FOSS4G for Business,
>> where in 5* comforts that might make business easy for
>> OSGeo.
>> Will also have, 'FOSS4G Developers', where in young
>> students/Reserchers can have a great conference.
>>
>> Some fine tuning may make, Say , 1st 2 days 5 Star..
>> Next two affordable.
>> But in a world where, 'COST some times means
>> Efficiency', may not, 'play ball', with this Idea.
>>
>> Cheers.. and All the best to the Hopefuls
>>
>> Ravi Kumar
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 11:19 AM, Jody Garnett
>> <jody.garnett at gmail.com
>> <mailto:jody.garnett at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Okay I checked that the report is not published
>> yet (sigh). I really appreciated Jeff's answer,
>> and agree that regional foss4g events are seeing
>> great success and are much more affordable.
>>
>> To answer your question:
>>
>> /'Do you agree that FOSS4G is turning out to be a
>> hangout for those who can afford it'/..
>>
>> I have never agreed that FOSS4G is a hangout - I
>> continue to view it as our most effective outreach
>> event.
>>
>> /costs (of participation) are so high that many
>> might not afford.. /
>> /
>> /
>> I very much agree with this, indeed I was only
>> able to attend the Lausanne event by the kindness
>> of people letting me sleep on their hotel floor. I
>> have tried to return the favour each time the
>> event took place in my home city.
>> /
>> /
>> /If selected to the board HOW do you wish to
>> correct this.../
>>
>> This is a tricky one, in part because I do not
>> have to imagine - here is my own recommendation
>> from the board at osgeo.org <mailto:board at osgeo.org>
>> email list thread: f2f meeting follow up
>> <https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/board/2017-August/010526.html>:
>>
>> On 21 August 2017 at 11:23, Jody Garnett
>> <jody.garnett at gmail.com <http://gmail.com/>> wrote:
>>
>> /I saw this thread get into the details of the
>> RFP - for that we have/
>> /volunteers on the conference committee. My
>> goal as a board member is to/
>> /work on strategy, as the conference committee
>> knows best about the RFP/
>> /wording and process./
>> /
>> /
>> /*Q: *Based on the affordability report, and
>> resulting discussion, did we as //the board
>> have any direction to ask the conference
>> committee to steer in?/
>> /
>> /
>> /My own feedback:/
>>
>>
>> /1) I was pleasantly surprised that the ticket
>> cost of foss4g has not //changed significantly
>> over the course of the events (indeed our
>> most //expensive event was Sydney and our
>> cheapest Korea)./
>> /
>> /
>> /I do not see any guidance to provide here
>> (this was surprising to me)./
>> /
>> /
>> /2) Attendance continues to increase limiting
>> appropriate venues/
>> /
>> /
>> /I do not see any guidence to provide here,
>> our community and event is //growing. I think
>> once we get around 3000 people we may be
>> forced to settle //down to consider a fixed
>> location, but at 1000-2000 we can still move
>> it //around./
>> /
>> /
>> /3) regional events are killing it/
>> /
>> /
>> /I do not see any guidence to provide here,
>> our community and events is //growing. //The
>> hope is this takes some of the strain from the
>> global event, allowing //it to focus on
>> outreach and advocacy more./
>> /
>> /
>> /4) hard for students to attend (also journal,
>> etc...)/
>> /
>> /
>> /There was a strong hope that travel grant
>> program could help out a lot //here, that
>> would make me sad as this was intended to work
>> towards //diversity./
>> /
>> /
>> /While there may be guidance here I am not
>> close enough to the academic //world to
>> provide useful direction./
>> /
>> /
>> /5) diversity/
>> /
>> /
>> /The original intention of the travel grant
>> was to bring diversity awareness //to our
>> osgeo events (to apply regional events are
>> asked to set a diversity //target which travel
>> grant can help towards). During foss4g I
>> attended a //diversity presentation that
>> advocated creating a safe space./
>> /
>> /
>> /*Guidance: *Trial the use of providing a safe
>> space in the 2018 bid./
>> /
>> /
>> /Similar recommendations online include:/
>> /- make female speakers a priority (not just
>> in selection, but before hand/
>> /in promotion, one-on-one mentoring etc...)./
>> /- providing child care (this helps families
>> attend)/
>> /
>> /
>> /Since these haver not been advocated by
>> members of our community I am
>> only //comfortable providing guidance on
>> providing a safe space. Perhaps some
>> of //these ideas can be tried out at regional
>> conferences first./
>> /
>> /
>> /6) time of year/
>> /
>> /
>> /The events have moved from September/October
>> to August placing it in the //way of European
>> holidays. With the bulk of our contributors in
>> Europe this //has affected how many of our
>> contributors can attend./
>> /
>> /
>> /*Guidance: *Request September / October event
>> (to maximize contributors who //can attend)./
>> /
>> /
>> /I understand next years event has plans to
>> turn this into a holiday for //families which
>> is a cunning plan./
>> /
>> /
>> /7) travel / accommodation/
>> /
>> /
>> /I would like to avoid prime tourist season to
>> avoid asking attendees pay //high airfair and
>> accommodation costs. We did not have the
>> number in the //affordability report to back
>> this up (but Michael Smith was going to
>> look //things up)./
>> /
>> /
>> /*Guidance: *Request September / October event
>> (to avoid peak tourist //season)./
>>
>>
>> Followed by:
>>
>> /> 5) diversity/
>>
>> /On reflection I am a bit uncomfortable
>> offering guidance here - lacking the //needed
>> perspective. I would ask that the conference
>> committee consider //diversity as a selection
>> criteria, but would hold off on providing
>> specific //advice listed above. I recognize
>> that the board as a whole is a diverse //body
>> and may be in position to offer guidance./
>> /
>> /
>> /I just don't think it is my place either as a
>> board member (need to trust //the marketing
>> committee) or as a white male (can offer only
>> concern, not //perspective)./
>> /
>> /
>> /Aside: This whole discussion has increased my
>> respect for the conference //committee, this
>> is tough stuff. I thank those who contribute
>> positively as //part of the conference committee./
>>
>>
>>
>> The thing to note is that as a board member we can
>> offer guidance, or in extreme cases provide a
>> mandate to a group that wishes to act. I you asked
>> me "/HOW do you wish to correct this" / the answer
>> would be to join the conference committe and help
>> out, an ability each of us has as a volunteer.
>>
>> The conference committee has my trust, and as
>> I understand they are deeply aware and concerned
>> about this issue.
>> --
>> Jody Garnett
>>
>> On 15 October 2017 at 16:56, Jody Garnett
>> <jody.garnett at gmail.com
>> <mailto:jody.garnett at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> We actually have solid numbers for this, a
>> report was provided at the Boston meeting that
>> kind of answers this to my satisfaction.
>>
>> I was waiting for it to be shared with the
>> membership, since your question was one I have
>> been asked repeatedly over the last six
>> months, especially at foss4ge.
>>
>> I would really like you to be able to read the
>> report and reach your own conclusion.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 4:45 PM Ravi Kumar
>> <manarajahmundry2015 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:manarajahmundry2015 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Question (would be Board). 'Do you agree
>> that FOSS4G is turning out to be a hangout
>> for those who can afford it'.. costs (of
>> participation) are
>> so high that many might not afford.. If
>> selected to the board HOW do you wish to
>> correct this..
>>
>> Ravi Kumar
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss at lists.osgeo.org
>> <mailto:Discuss at lists.osgeo.org>
>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>> <https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Jody Garnett
>>
>>
>>
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>> <https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss>
>
>
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> Jody Garnett
>
>
>
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--
Yours sincerely,
ir. Dirk Frigne
CEO @geosparc
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