[Qgis-user] [EXTERNAL] Re: Geopackage slow on NAS if not read-only

jhubbslist at att.net jhubbslist at att.net
Thu Mar 16 07:39:52 PDT 2023


You'd only be "living with it" because you choose to use the wrong tools 
for the work and refuse to use the right ones. In this case, I see the 
"wrong tools" here as 1) network-shared files for common r/w access 2) 
the SMB/CIFS protocol in general 3) appliance-type file servers are 
trash. You can try to make things better by standing up a proper 
Linux-based file server and using NFS instead of SMB/CIFS but 1) is 
enough of a problem that you'd only be throwing good work after bad.

If it suits your use cases, you might try implementing something like 
git - which is after a fashion just another networked file-sharing 
protocol - and use check-out/check-in controls to make changes to 
centrally-stored files but this means you'll be slinging entire copies 
of your datasets down to client machines on the regular; that may not 
work well for you.

The best answer is PostgreSQL/PostGIS and that's going to take some time 
and effort. Cost of doing business.

On 3/16/23 10:08 AM, Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User wrote:
> I do appreciate the good advice to use DBMS, I am doing that too and 
> understand the advantages. I would never consider using a geopackage 
> if I thought that multiple people would want to edit them at the same 
> time. But that is not the case and that is not my problem. Sometimes, 
> I just want to keep geodata in a file on a network share and run the 
> risk (in my case insignificant) that the file will be corrupted by 
> multi user access. This I can do with shapefiles, but unlike the 
> shapefiles, I have to set the read-only flag on the geopackages stored 
> on the network to get decent rendering speed, without ever wanting to 
> edit the files. I think wanting to use file based storage for geodata 
> in a networked environment is not unreasonable, even if there is some 
> danger of corruption. All file based formats are probably subject to 
> that risk, but I repeat, that issue is not what I am talking about, 
> just the rendering speed of data in a geopackage that is not set to 
> read-only.
> I suspect that there is no solution and that I will just have to live 
> with this - as I have done for years. It is just a bit annoying. And I 
> am surprised how little it is discussed.
>
> Árni
>
>
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 13:46, Sadowski Jarosław via QGIS-User 
> <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
>     +1
>
>     Don’t use file formats to edit by multiple users. I was occurring
>     some critical problems, as for example disappearing objects from
>     database or LOOOOONG read for first time ☹
>
>     Use PostgreSQL or other solutions like:
>
>     Mergin Maps: Collect, Store and Analyze your Geo-Data Easily
>     <https://merginmaps.com/>
>
>     GIS Support » GIS.Box (gis--support-pl.translate.goog)
>     <https://gis--support-pl.translate.goog/gis-box/?_x_tr_sl=pl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=pl&_x_tr_pto=wapp>
>
>
>     *_________________________________*
>
>     *Jarosław Sadowski*
>     Kierownik Zespołu ds. Ochrony Środowiska | /Biuro Strategii i
>     Planowania, Projektowania i Inżynierii Podprogramu Kolejowego/
>     /Environmental Protection Team Leader //| Railway Subprogramme
>     Strategy & Planning, Design & Engineering Department/
>     e: jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl
>     m: +48 532 720 230
>
>     *From:*QGIS-User <qgis-user-bounces at lists.osgeo.org> *On Behalf Of
>     *Bo Victor Thomsen via QGIS-User
>     *Sent:* Thursday, March 16, 2023 2:35 PM
>     *To:* qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
>     *Subject:* Re: [Qgis-user] [EXTERNAL] Re: Geopackage slow on NAS
>     if not read-only
>
>     UWAGA: Ta wiadomość pochodzi spoza CPK Sp. z o.o. Proszę pomóż
>     zadbać o bezpieczeństwo naszej organizacji. Zastanów się, zanim
>     otworzysz link lub załącznik.
>
>     When any user on your network access the geopackage layer and
>     (maybe unnecessarily) puts the layer in edit mode, there will be
>     created 2 extra files in the same directory as the gpkg file
>     resides in. And QGIS behaves different regarding /both/ read and
>     write operations when these file are present. This is probably the
>     explanation of the longer reading times, even if nobody actually
>     is editing the layer. When the user stops the editing mode for the
>     layer, the 2 files disappear.
>
>     You can check if this is the explanation:
>
>      1. Open the gpkg layer in read mode on one computer, check the
>         access speed of the same layer on /another/ computer.
>      2. Set the layer in edit mode on the first computer, check the
>         access speed to the layer on the second computer
>      3. Revert the edit mode on the first computer, check the access
>         speed to the layer on the second computer.
>
>     I am guessing, that situations 1 and 3 are fast, while situation 2
>     is slow.
>
>     First of all: Never, ever try to implement some kind of multi-user
>     editing on a file based format, where the file resides on a
>     networked drive. It will never, ever work reliably. At some point
>     2 users will try to edit the same layer at the same time and it
>     will go kaboom (I can read from your mails that you are aware
>     about this). This goes for - probably - every file based format on
>     a network drive.
>
>     Secondly: What about making the gpkg file read-only at the network
>     share level for most of the users. And only granting write access
>     to the gpkg file for certain users that are instructed in /not/
>     setting the layer in edit mode unless it's strictly necessary ?
>
>     The best solution: Install Postgres/PostGIS on your NAS
>
>     Med venlig hilsen / Best regards
>
>       
>
>     Bo Victor Thomsen
>
>     Den 16-03-2023 kl. 13:49 skrev Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User:
>
>         Thank you for the various responses.
>
>         Let me be clear that what I am griping about is not the
>         locking aspect that would allow multiple users to edit without
>         conflict. I fully understand that the geopackage is not safe
>         for that, nor is the shapefile and perhaps also the file
>         geodatabase. In my case, the likelihood of two people wanting
>         to edit the same geopackage is negligible, so I take my
>         chances. My only gripe is the rendering speed of larger
>         geopackages on a shared network, if they are not set
>         specifically to read-only. That is not a problem with the
>         shapefile and I think probably not with a file geodatabase. I
>         am a long time user of geopackages in a networked environment
>         and I will continue to use them - they are great - there is
>         just this problem of rendering speed over a network.
>
>         Árni
>
>         On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 12:33, Sebastian Gutwein
>         <bas at rdgland.com> wrote:
>
>             This is all beyond my expertise but I have also struggled
>             with the effective use of gpkg’s. In my case over google
>             drive.
>
>             Here is what SQLite (the underlying software for gpkgs)
>             says about using a SQLite database on a network:
>
>             https://www.sqlite.org/useovernet.html
>             <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqlite.org%2Fuseovernet.html&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gF5jBExKrp2Hlks%2FQEHefiiG0FJFhqAG8fJ0VxBs4Kc%3D&reserved=0>
>
>             I hope that someday someone implements a system that
>             allows this to work efficiently as gpkgs are better in
>             many respects than shapefiles. Perhaps Geodiff could be
>             part of that solution.
>
>             https://github.com/MerginMaps/geodiff
>             <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FMerginMaps%2Fgeodiff&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=bcngOeZeGv1iT%2BEEOV2Vtf3%2FZRXxYLBvgRuX0SMFOdI%3D&reserved=0>
>
>             On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 8:04 AM Árni Geirsson via
>             QGIS-User <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
>                 Hi Jorge
>
>                 I understand what you are pointing at and I use
>                 databases such as Postgres/PostGIS also with good
>                 results. The thing is that working with data in files
>                 sometimes has advantages and that is certainly how
>                 shapefiles have been used. The geopackage has been
>                 suggested as a replacement for the shapefile in the
>                 context of regular QGIS usage without any caveat
>                 saying that geopackages only replace the storage and
>                 transfer role of shapefiles and that geopackages
>                 should not be used for editing in a shared
>                 environment, as is perfectly possible with shapefiles
>                 and widely practiced. Not all users have access to
>                 database systems such as Postgres. I'm just looking
>                 for some clarity on best practices for the common
>                 scenario of working with QGIS using file based data in
>                 a network environment.
>
>                 Árni
>
>                 On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 11:47, Jorge Gustavo Rocha via
>                 QGIS-User <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org> wrote:
>
>                     Hi,
>
>                     For data storage and manipulation databases are
>                     suitable. Files are not.
>
>                     Geopackages are wonderful to transfer data between
>                     systems or to archive an entire project (snapshot
>                     of data, styles and the project itself).
>
>                     Regards,
>
>                     Jorge
>
>                     On 16/03/23 11:30, Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User wrote:
>
>                         Thank you Jarosław. Isn't it strange that this
>                         was discussed 5 years ago and SMB file sharing
>                         is very common? Would a linux based NAS be
>                         able to use another protocol? What are my
>                         options for file based data sharing in QGIS?
>                         Abandoning geopackages is not a realistic
>                         option for me, but I could get a different
>                         kind of NAS unit, if that helps, what kind
>                         then? What amazes me is how little I see this
>                         discussed. There was a message in this thread
>                         this morning from Thomas Struller, but I am
>                         not sure it is about the same root problem,
>                         maybe Thomas can elaborate.
>
>                         Should this perhaps be discussed in another
>                         forum, closer to the development of
>                         geopackage/sqlite?
>
>                         Árni Geirsson
>
>                         On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 09:52, Sadowski
>                         Jarosław <jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl> wrote:
>
>                             Long story short: gpkg is bad idea for
>                             network drives as SMB/NAS etc
>
>                             Sources:
>                             Write-Ahead Logging (sqlite.org)
>                             <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sqlite.org%2Fwal.html%23advantages&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=vrWFTUkAozdYRmNNtVRiMz5YiGTzAso2UQDgEzkzr6w%3D&reserved=0>
>
>                             writing gpkg and sqlite on samba shares
>                             fails · Issue #628 · r-spatial/sf · GitHub
>                             <https://eur06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fr-spatial%2Fsf%2Fissues%2F628&data=05%7C01%7Cjaroslaw.sadowski%40cpk.pl%7Cd767a39352fb48744fbc08db26235086%7Cfa798250ca0b4a1bb47381cff4a1752b%7C1%7C0%7C638145705353555137%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=aC2PYy3vqIWzu3XXWMjhggZawmN9dXQcunqObizOQNY%3D&reserved=0>
>
>                             *_________________________________*
>
>                             *Jarosław Sadowski*
>                             Kierownik Zespołu ds. Ochrony Środowiska |
>                             /Biuro Strategii i Planowania,
>                             Projektowania i Inżynierii Podprogramu
>                             Kolejowego/
>                             /Environmental Protection Team Leader |
>                             Railway Subprogramme Strategy & Planning,
>                             Design & Engineering Department/
>                             e: jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl
>                             <mailto:jaroslaw.sadowski at cpk.pl>
>                             m: +48 532 720 230
>
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>                             *From:*QGIS-User
>                             <qgis-user-bounces at lists.osgeo.org> *On
>                             Behalf Of *Árni Geirsson via QGIS-User
>                             *Sent:* Thursday, March 16, 2023 10:18 AM
>                             *To:* jhubbslist at att.net
>                             *Cc:* qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
>                             *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [Qgis-user]
>                             Geopackage slow on NAS if not read-only
>
>                             UWAGA: Ta wiadomość pochodzi spoza CPK Sp.
>                             z o.o. Proszę pomóż zadbać o
>                             bezpieczeństwo naszej organizacji.
>                             Zastanów się, zanim otworzysz link lub
>                             załącznik.
>
>                             Yes, as far as I know, the NAS unit uses
>                             SMB as the file sharing protocol. I used
>                             another NAS from QNAP before this one,
>                             also using SMB and with the same problem.
>                             I thought pretty much all of the Linux
>                             based NAS units were using SMB and if that
>                             is the problem, it should be widespread,
>                             but I don't see any signs of that. Is SMB
>                             a problem for geopackage?
>
>                             I did a quick test in QGIS: A dataset of
>                             178.000 line features is rendered in about
>                             1 second from a read only geopackage. When
>                             I remove the read only flag, it is
>                             rendered in about 5 seconds.
>
>                             If I store the geopackage on the local
>                             hard drive, the problem disappears,
>                             read-write or read-only does not matter.
>
>                             I have had suspicions about SMB being part
>                             of the problem but I don't know enough
>                             about file access deep down in the
>                             operating system to understand it.
>
>                             Árni Geirsson
>
>                             On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 01:45,
>                             jhubbslist--- via QGIS-User
>                             <qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org
>                             <mailto:qgis-user at lists.osgeo.org>> wrote:
>
>                                 Árni -
>
>                                 Are you using SMB/CIFS to access this
>                                 NAS, and are you using wifi or
>                                 Ethernet to connect to it?
>
>                                 - Jeff
>
>                                 On 3/15/23 3:30 PM, Árni Geirsson via
>                                 QGIS-User wrote:
>
>                                     Hello all QGIS and geopackage users.
>
>                                     I store my geopackages on a
>                                     Synology RackStation NAS unit,
>                                     like all other documents that are
>                                     kept on a shared drive in the
>                                     office. For larger datasets, the
>                                     rendering is very slow, unless I
>                                     open the properties dialog for the
>                                     file in Windows and check the read
>                                     only box. After that, the features
>                                     are rendered blazingly fast.
>                                     Nothing else is changed to see the
>                                     dramatic difference in the
>                                     rendering speed. Luckily, I don't
>                                     need to edit many of the larger
>                                     datasets, such as road networks
>                                     and elevation contours and
>                                     the geopackage can be kept read
>                                     only. Shapefiles are not affected.
>
>                                     What explains this and does anyone
>                                     know how to solve the problem?
>
>                                     Do other users experience this?
>
>                                     Árni Geirsson
>
>                                     _______________________________________________
>
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>
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